Engine Planning help

[Rack]

As some of you know, I'm doing as much as I can now to plan out my '68 charger restoration.

Anyway, I was wondering if I can get some help/advice with an engine build.


I'll give as much info I know I'll want/ be using now:


Rear tires will be 295/50/15 ( I like that classic look).

Engine will be a 440

I want posi traction.

That's about all I know of right now.


Also, how would I go about checking what kind or rearend my charger currently has?



Oh also, my charger will mainly be a street car. I won't be on the highway/freeway too often and I won't be racing it too often either. However, I do want it to "Go" when need be. I guess I'm looking for a good mixture between reliability and ass kickability.


A week ago I was completely clueless about engine builds, engines in general, etc... Now after reading all these old threads I'm only clueless (I moved past the "completely" part). Just reading all your old posts has given me a lot of knowledge. I can tell I'm already gonna have a better understanding of engines then I do body/interior work. I don't know why, but I understand the posts more in this forum then in the other forums. Strange cuz before I bought my charger I thought the engine work would be the most challenging (mentally).


Thanks!

Edit: Here's the best pic of my rear end I could find...

[Rack]

Also, what kind of $$$ am I looking at with this build?


I've seen some 440 on ebay going anywhere from around 3700  to about 9K (don't worry, no way am I trusting Ebay for anything "Big" again).


A mechanic that came by to look at the charger said building a 440 would cost about 10K. That seems a bit high to me.

[Rack]

I just spoke to my uncle (he knows a little bit about cars/trucks). He told me I had to remove the pan in order to see some numbers stamped on some gears so that I can figure out what ratio my gears are. Is that true?

I figured there'd be a number stamped on the outside of the pan somewhere.

[Bandit4142]

Hi there!   First and foremost, have fun with your build.     Now to answer your questions, checking for a "Sure-Grip" Rear end, simply jack the rear of the car off the ground and rotate the rear tires by hand.  If it is a Sure-Grip, both rear tires will rotate the same direction.   Also, while you have it in the air, there should be a tag attached to one of the bolts holding the front of the pumpkin to the main case of the rear axle.  There will be a number stamped on this tag and that is the ratio.   There is also a method of counting tire rotations compared to driveshaft revolutions, but I'm not sure of that method.  You should be able to find it with the "Search" function.   

The price of a 440 rebuild varies quite a bit from what I'm finding, but a good average for a "run-of-the-mill" rebuild seems to run around $3500 from what I've found for an entire long-block.   Ten-thousand sounds EXTREMELY high for a standard street build.....  or more appropriately....."Stupid" HIGH!  LOL! 

Good luck with your build, I'm going through the exact same thing right now. 

[Rack]

Hi there!   First and foremost, have fun with your build.     Now to answer your questions, checking for a "Sure-Grip" Rear end, simply jack the rear of the car off the ground and rotate the rear tires by hand.  If it is a Sure-Grip, both rear tires will rotate the same direction.   Also, while you have it in the air, there should be a tag attached to one of the bolts holding the front of the pumpkin to the main case of the rear axle.  There will be a number stamped on this tag and that is the ratio.   There is also a method of counting tire rotations compared to driveshaft revolutions, but I'm not sure of that method.  You should be able to find it with the "Search" function.   

The price of a 440 rebuild varies quite a bit from what I'm finding, but a good average for a "run-of-the-mill" rebuild seems to run around $3500 from what I've found for an entire long-block.   Ten-thousand sounds EXTREMELY high for a standard street build.....  or more appropriately....."Stupid" HIGH!  LOL! 

Good luck with your build, I'm going through the exact same thing right now. 

Thanks for the reply, Bandit!


Yeah when the mechanic told me 10K I was thinking, "WTF is this engine made out of, gold?!"

I was running around town doing all sorts of errands today so I'll check out the rear end tomorrow. I'm hoping it'll be one of the things I don't have to replace.

[694spdRT]

To check the gear ratio jack up the rear like Bandit said. Make a mark with chalk on the driveshaft and then slowly spin the tire exactly one revolution while counting the number of times the driveshaft spins. If it spins 3 1/4 turns you have 3.23 gears, 3 1/2 turns would be 3.55 gears etc. If both tires do NOT spin the same direction you do not have a Sure Grip unit so you will need to multiply the number you get by 2 in order to get the correct gear ratio.

3.55 gears are a nice all around gear but, because you are planning to run a taller 295 tire you could get away with lower gears like 3.91's IMO.

The rear in you car looks like an 8 3/4" Chrysler rear which is pretty standard in B bodies. To tell what kind of case you have look for the casting number on the driver side of the rear end near the u joint. Not e the last 3 digits on the case. They should be either a 741, 742 or 489. There are pros and cons to each but, any of these will work in a street application for the most part. The case # does affect what gears you buy if that is needed.

On the 440 10K does seem excessive unless you are getting really exotic. I would say $3-4000 is closer for a well built "stock" 440 long block with mostly new parts. That will vary depending on how much you do and how far you want to go.

[Rack]

To check the gear ratio jack up the rear like Bandit said. Make a mark with chalk on the driveshaft and then slowly spin the tire exactly one revolution while counting the number of times the driveshaft spins. If it spins 3 1/4 turns you have 3.23 gears, 3 1/2 turns would be 3.55 gears etc. If both tires do NOT spin the same direction you do not have a Sure Grip unit so you will need to multiply the number you get by 2 in order to get the correct gear ratio.

Thanks, 694spdRT. Interesting, and it seems easy enough. Wish it wasn't dark out or I'd go try it right now. 

The rear in you car looks like an 8 3/4" Chrysler rear which is pretty standard in B bodies. To tell what kind of case you have look for the casting number on the driver side of the rear end near the u joint. Not e the last 3 digits on the case. They should be either a 741, 742 or 489. There are pros and cons to each but, any of these will work in a street application for the most part. The case # does affect what gears you buy if that is needed.

Here's where things get a little fuzzy for me. So what's the 8 3/4" in reference to? Does it have anything to do with the gear ratio? ANd what about the case? What are the differences between these 3?

On the 440 10K does seem excessive unless you are getting really exotic. I would say $3-4000 is closer for a well built "stock" 440 long block with mostly new parts. That will vary depending on how much you do and how far you want to go.

That's two different people telling me it's closer to 3 or 4K so I feel alot better about that. Remind me never to have that mechanic work on my car. 10K?! Wow.

I'll probably put in some top quality parts, but certainly not 6 or 7K worth. I'm thinking of lightening the engine a bit but not at the expense of durability and/or performance.


I've heard/read about aluminum pistons. I'll do a search before I ask any questions regarding the pros/cons on using them. I'm guessing they wouldn't be ideal for a racing engine, but for all I know it could actually be the complete opposite.

I tell you, my brain is absorbing the engine part of the project a lot better then the body part. Sucks cuz I don't have a 440 to rebuild, and I'm thinking if I'm gonna have to buy one, might as well buy it already made. I'd like to build it myself, but if I'm building one completely new I think I'd rather defer to experience rather then risk it myself. If I had a 440 currently in it I'd rather build it up myself. If I can get my hands on a 440 block in good condition for a good price I'll go ahead and do the work myself.

Hopefully the agent at auction insurance agency will have some good news for me regarding the title (and hopefully a refund) by the end of the week. I want to get started already.

Thanks for the reply, 694spdRT.

[Chryco Psycho]

8 3/4 is the size of the ring gear & has nothing ot do with th ratio
the 741 is the weakest , the 742 & 489 are about equal but you need to replace the crush sleeve with a spacer to make it as strong as the 742

most of the engine I build are in the 5-6 K range [canadiun $$ ] but use all good parts & make great power
you really should use a forged piston in any build for 2 reasons , 1 it is far cheaper to spend the $$ up front than replace an engine when  a ceap piston fails & 2 if you want more power later on you can bolt it on without rebuilding completely

[Rack]

Thanks, Chryco.


I've been searching the web looking for engine build books. Should help me out quite a bit that way I don't have to bother you guys with too much of the petty stuff. 


I'll still have plenty of questions later on, but at least they won't all be so "elementary". I'm loving this though. I always loved cars when I was a kid but I was "Discouraged" to have anything to do with them.

[Rack]

I checked the rear end today. I do have "sure grip" and my ratio is 3.23.

My uncle says I should probably switch that out for a 3.55 or a little higher.


What do you all think?

[dodge freak]

Just change the oil in it for right now. I would touch that last, sounds like you have much more to do. The 3.23 isn't too bad, sure 3.55 would help more but get everything else done first, then if still have the money and think it could be quicker change it then. The way gas is going it might be $5.00 a gallon by the time you are done, maybe not. Who knows, in the past its always has gone down after a few years, so why not again?

[694spdRT]

I checked the rear end today. I do have "sure grip" and my ratio is 3.23.

My uncle says I should probably switch that out for a 3.55 or a little higher.


What do you all think?

I would wait until you decide for sure what type of driving you are going to do and what the engine build is going to consist of. A "rough" guess is that 3.23 gears will leave you with a 55-60mph cruising rpm of around 2500. The 3.55's will bump that up several hundred more and 3.91's several hundred over that. Like I said earlier the taller 295 tires will effectively reduce your actual gear ratio though. You will have to decide what works best for your driving habits.

[Rack]

Yeah I just wanted to get the info down so I can add to my "Engine build plan".


The only reason I'd take it out now is if someone wants to buy it, and I need the money to help finish another part of the restoration.


One thing I noticed, I had to jack it up pretty high to get the tire off the ground. I put the jack in front of the tire, should I have jacked it up with the jack behind the tire? Also, I couldn't get my jack stand under it cuz the jack was in the way. I'm sure there's a better way to do it then the way I did. I won't be putting it on stands till I get the engine out so it's no big deal right now, but I know there has to be a better way.

Now if only that jerk would send me the title I could get started!

[TylerCharger69]

I dunno....but I could build a 383  OR a 440 for approx.  1500 dollars.  That's machine work, pistons, gasket kit......and a decent camshaft.  But the prices here aren't too bad as far as machine shops are concerned.

[694spdRT]

For checking the gear ratio I usually just use a "quality" heavy floor jack under the rear axle center section and jack it up. That way you don't have to deal with the suspension travel when you are lifting it off the unibody frame. You can then put some floor jacks under the axle on each side. There is no need to get real high in the air...just enough so the both tires are off the ground and you can see the driveshaft spin without being under the car. It is always a good idea to use jack stands when you are under the car as any type of jack is not the safest especially if you are going under the car. When you do start to seriously work on and under the car you will need good jack stands. (or a  hoist)    

[Rack]

I don't really trust anyone here in Laredo. You know of any good body shops or mechanics there in Corpus?


My car came with the front valance in the truck. I'm gonna let a body man work on it that I know and see what kind of work he does. If he does a good job I'll hire him to do more work to the car when I get to it, I'm just not gonna tell him the valance is a "test". I want to see if he'll do a good job w/o knowing future jobs are on the line. He's also gonna fix the tailgate on my F-150 (some a-hole at Home Depot dropped something on it and dented/scratched the shit out of it. He didn't stick around either. The SOB just left, and it was probably a good decision on his part).

The tailgate is in bad shape. The valance is in worse shape. I don't know of any mopar body men around here. I'll have to ask around. I won't be asking the guy that said a 440 would cost 10K to build.

For checking the gear ratio I usually just use a "quality" heavy floor jack under the rear axle center section and jack it up.

Yeah I have a pretty good floor jack (at least I think so lol). By "rear axle center section" are you referring to the round part where it forms the "T" (if you're looking at it from under the car)? I thought about doing that but wasn't sure if it would be strong enough to hold. I didn't want to damage anything. I guess that's another question I need to ask in the "Stupid questions thread"... "Where should I place the jack when jacking up the car?" 

When you do start to seriously work on and under the car you will need good jack stands. (or a  hoist)

I picked up two pair at sears the other day. They seem pretty strong. Can't remember what they were rated for but one of the pair is rated at 7 tons (I think). The other pair is rated a bit less.

Are those ok?

[694spdRT]

I dunno....but I could build a 383  OR a 440 for approx.  1500 dollars.  That's machine work, pistons, gasket kit......and a decent camshaft.  But the prices here aren't too bad as far as machine shops are concerned.

Just curious what you are figuring for the top end? I had about what you said in my 440 shortblock complete but, I reused the TRW's that were already in it. It was decked, balanced, and the rotating assembly was done at the machine shop for about $800. I put in the Engle cam and lifters and reassembled the rest of the engine myself. The heads I had were already done by a previous owner so those were a bolt on deal. The price does includes the oil pump, gaskets, etc.

[694spdRT]

I don't really trust anyone here in Laredo. You know of any good body shops or mechanics there in Corpus?


My car came with the front valance in the truck. I'm gonna let a body man work on it that I know and see what kind of work he does. If he does a good job I'll hire him to do more work to the car when I get to it, I'm just not gonna tell him the valance is a "test". I want to see if he'll do a good job w/o knowing future jobs are on the line. He's also gonna fix the tailgate on my F-150 (some a-hole at Home Depot dropped something on it and dented/scratched the shit out of it. He didn't stick around either. The SOB just left, and it was probably a good decision on his part).

The tailgate is in bad shape. The valance is in worse shape. I don't know of any mopar body men around here. I'll have to ask around. I won't be asking the guy that said a 440 would cost 10K to build.

For checking the gear ratio I usually just use a "quality" heavy floor jack under the rear axle center section and jack it up.

Yeah I have a pretty good floor jack (at least I think so lol). By "rear axle center section" are you referring to the round part where it forms the "T" (if you're looking at it from under the car)? I thought about doing that but wasn't sure if it would be strong enough to hold. I didn't want to damage anything. I guess that's another question I need to ask in the "Stupid questions thread"... "Where should I place the jack when jacking up the car?" 

When you do start to seriously work on and under the car you will need good jack stands. (or a  hoist)

I picked up two pair at sears the other day. They seem pretty strong. Can't remember what they were rated for but one of the pair is rated at 7 tons (I think). The other pair is rated a bit less.

Are those ok?

The center section is the part you are thinking of.  For jack stands I like the biggest ones I can find to give stable support. I have had the same ones for years so I don't know about the ratings you mentioned. The cheap ones I am thinking of (and scared of) are quite small. Maybe shoot a pic of what you bought if you are worried about them. I have always been cautious under cars because I had a friend that was working under his Camaro with a floor jack and the only thing that save him when the jack tipped was a metal folding chair that the car bumper caught. It gave him just enough time to roll out from under the car before the chair gave. I have a hoist in our shop and I am always double checking the locks before going under it.     

[Rack]

Yeah the thought of crawling under a 3500 lb car isn't appealing to me either. That's why I'm looking in to having a rotisierre built. I copied the plans down that someone had posted here (I'd give him credit if I remember the username) and printed them out. A welder is gonna come by tomorrow to do some work around the house, I'm gonna ask him if he can build it.

[694spdRT]

Are you planning to take the car all the way down to the bare shell? A rotisserie is a great piece of equipment when trying to restore these cars.   

Here my car is in October 2003.

[TylerCharger69]

I know the machine shop here  called Gilpin machine....does excellent work!!!

[694spdRT]

This was August 2005 at it's 1st show.

[Rack]

Are you planning to take the car all the way down to the bare shell? A rotisserie is a great piece of equipment when trying to restore these cars.   

Here my car is in October 2003.

Yeah I want to get to every possible inch of the car. I want this done as well as I could possibly do it. From what I've read, they aren't too difficult to build (rotisierrie) if you have the "know how".


I just hope the one I end up with doesn't fall apart while I've got the car on it!

I know the machine shop here  called Gilpin machine....does excellent work!!!

Next time you talk to him tell him he owes you a discount cuz you probably just got him another customer!

This was August 2005 at it's 1st show.

Nice.


Wish there were more mopar people close to me. It would be cost efficient to get a group of 6 or 7 guys to split the cost on certain things (like blasting equipment, powder coating oven, rotisierre, etc...).

I already have plans to restore another car after I'm done with the charger (either a 67 GTO or a 70 Cuda).

[Rack]

I don't really trust anyone here in Laredo. You know of any good body shops or mechanics there in Corpus?


My car came with the front valance in the truck. I'm gonna let a body man work on it that I know and see what kind of work he does. If he does a good job I'll hire him to do more work to the car when I get to it, I'm just not gonna tell him the valance is a "test". I want to see if he'll do a good job w/o knowing future jobs are on the line. He's also gonna fix the tailgate on my F-150 (some a-hole at Home Depot dropped something on it and dented/scratched the shit out of it. He didn't stick around either. The SOB just left, and it was probably a good decision on his part).

The tailgate is in bad shape. The valance is in worse shape. I don't know of any mopar body men around here. I'll have to ask around. I won't be asking the guy that said a 440 would cost 10K to build.

For checking the gear ratio I usually just use a "quality" heavy floor jack under the rear axle center section and jack it up.

Yeah I have a pretty good floor jack (at least I think so lol). By "rear axle center section" are you referring to the round part where it forms the "T" (if you're looking at it from under the car)? I thought about doing that but wasn't sure if it would be strong enough to hold. I didn't want to damage anything. I guess that's another question I need to ask in the "Stupid questions thread"... "Where should I place the jack when jacking up the car?" 

When you do start to seriously work on and under the car you will need good jack stands. (or a  hoist)

I picked up two pair at sears the other day. They seem pretty strong. Can't remember what they were rated for but one of the pair is rated at 7 tons (I think). The other pair is rated a bit less.

Are those ok?

The center section is the part you are thinking of.  For jack stands I like the biggest ones I can find to give stable support. I have had the same ones for years so I don't know about the ratings you mentioned. The cheap ones I am thinking of (and scared of) are quite small. Maybe shoot a pic of what you bought if you are worried about them. I have always been cautious under cars because I had a friend that was working under his Camaro with a floor jack and the only thing that save him when the jack tipped was a metal folding chair that the car bumper caught. It gave him just enough time to roll out from under the car before the chair gave. I have a hoist in our shop and I am always double checking the locks before going under it.     

I bought a pair of these...



^^^ Those are 6 ton jack stands.


And a pair of these...



^^^ Those are 3 1/2 ton jack stands.


I would of bought 6 ton jack stands all the way around, but they only had the one box. I'll probably go back sometime this week and see if they restocked any.

[dodge freak]

If you lift only the back up make sure the front wheels are block on both sides. I had a 2000 Buick up last year from the front- its front wheel drive- and was doing the brakes. Was next to it , nobody else around and it started to roll back by it self, in 2 seconds it was down and my floor jack was sideways. Nothing got damage, but I used to change the oil with just the floor jack. No more, its jack stands and wheel blockers. Still get shook up thinking about it, and I am numb behind the wheel on the road.

[TylerCharger69]

That could've been catastrophic....To add to these tips....a nice, level surface helps too!!   Don't do it on a slope.....but I imagine you already know that!!!   At least I hope you do.....lol

[dodge freak]

It was a flat garage floor, had the car since it was new. Change the oil a bunch of times before that-it has 150,000 miles on it. First time it happen to any car I had in there for 16 years. Not sure what happen but yeah I don't think I would gotten out. Seems like every year some guy gets killed working on his car around here. When you are under it be careful when loosing a nut, sometimes you pull so hard the car moves, most of time its those light weight ricers that do that.

[Rack]

If you lift only the back up make sure the front wheels are block on both sides. I had a 2000 Buick up last year from the front- its front wheel drive- and was doing the brakes. Was next to it , nobody else around and it started to roll back by it self, in 2 seconds it was down and my floor jack was sideways. Nothing got damage, but I used to change the oil with just the floor jack. No more, its jack stands and wheel blockers. Still get shook up thinking about it, and I am numb behind the wheel on the road.

Hell I got shook up just reading it.

Yeah I put a couple of blocks of mesquite under the front wheels, but after reading your post I'm gonna go get me a set of blocks designed just for that purpose.

To add to these tips....a nice, level surface helps too!!   Don't do it on a slope.....but I imagine you already know that!!!   At least I hope you do.....lol

Yeah I got that one figured out. lol


I'm not completely comfortable with the surface it's on right now though. As you can see in some of those pics (I think you can see) it's not cement all the way across. It's just two lanes with grass/dirt between them. Even the two lanes aren't a great surface. It's that cement mixed with pebbles deal (not sure what to call it). Still kind of a slick surface. Hopefully I'll get the engine out of it soon and lighten the load a bit.

[TylerCharger69]

After you're done...We can use that Mesquite for a big BBQ!!!!

[Rack]

After you're done...We can use that Mesquite for a big BBQ!!!!

I plan on it!


Nothing like fajita that tastes like tire rubber. 

[Rack]

Ok I have a better idea of what I'm looking to build now.


440 Engine
Looking to get between 425-450 HP
3.73 gears

As far as my differential, what do you (anyone) recommend? I was thinking a Dana 44? Still a little fuzzy as far as the rear end goes.

What mods would I have to do to the engine to get 425-450 HP?

What about the transmission?

I'm really starting to understand the engine aspect (not completely yet though, obviously), but the transmission and rear end are a bit unclear. You guys have been a big help and I'm sorry to be such a pain in the a$$ with all the questions. Bare with me though and I'll get the hand of it.