Hello, new here. Have a question...

[Rack]

First of all, let me say that this place is a freakin' gold mine of information! I've been sitting here just reading different threads for over 2 hours.


Now to my question with an explanation first...

I just bought a '68 Charger R/T (the seller claims it's an R/T) on Ebay for $9,500. The seller claimed the engine was a 440. Since he also claims the car is an R/T I figured it was a 440 (my first experience buying a car on ebay, and I know I made some critical mistakes).

Anyway, I get the car home and checked the casting number on the engine. It's a 383, not a 440.

Before I get to "The" question, let me ask this, is there any way other then the vin, engine, or fender tag to tell the difference between a regular 68 charger and a 68 Charger R/T? The casting date on the engine suggests it may just be the original (casting date was december '67) so I'm thinking the car may not be an R/T at all. The vin is XS29, but after the trouble I'm already having I'm not trusting the vin #.

Anyway, "The" question is, what is the difference in price between a 383 and a 440?

I'm currently trying to get the issue resolved through squaretrade. I asked for $3,500 back (the 440 was the biggest reason I even placed a bid on the car in the first place) but the seller has offered to pay back $500. IMO that's a slap to the face.

But I'm no expert (far from it, although at least I know more then the moron seller). So what do you guys/gals think? Is 500 back fair? Is 3500 asking for too much?

Thanks, and you can expect to hear a lot more from me! I'm restoring my first car (gonna restore it from the ground up) in honor of my nephew (RIP) who had always wanted to restore an old car. I don't know much about doing this but I'm gonna do as much with my own hands as I possibly can. I'll even paint the car if I feel confident enough to do so (when the time comes).

[Blown70]

Well he did sell the car under a false pretense that it was a 440.  I think 2,500 is high but 500 is a slap in the face.  Do you want a Magnum build 440, I would assume YES, as that would be for a R/T car.  Then also is the 383 a good running motor or rebuild that you could sell that?  I guess $2,500 may not be bad if you need a runner.  Well stay with the 2500 for now. 

  Do you have the fender tag?  You could check the serial number with the car stampings to find out if all else is up and up

Tom

[Wakko]

It's tough to say without knowing the condition of the car and how it was advertised.  Can you post a link to the auction?  I looked but only saw a HLPAG '68 recently sold for 9,999 and it had a 440 in it.   It's a shame that you didn't do your homework first on the car but it's water under the bridge.  If the car is in good condition and the 383 runs well 9500 isn't a bad deal.  On the other hand if it's all beat up and needs alot of work, 9500 could be too much for a non R/T car.  I agree that $500 is too little to offer but $2500 or $3500 is too much to expect if the car is decent.

[Rack]

Do you want a Magnum build 440, I would assume YES

Yes that's exactly what I want.

Then also is the 383 a good running motor or rebuild that you could sell that?

I can't get it running. The car needs electrical work, new spark plug wires, starter, coil, etc... the mechanic said the wiring would be about $700 alone. That's just to get it started. After that, who knows how much work the engine needs. You can tell it's been a LONG time since it's been running though cuz of the amount of rust around the belts area (don't know the terminology for it. What the things are called that the belts run through. Lots of rust there).

Do you have the fender tag?

No it didn't come with the fender tag. It was conveniently removed.

You could check the serial number with the car stampings to find out if all else is up and up

How would I got about doing that? I purchased a parts interchange manual, but I'm not sure if/how it can help me.

Can you post a link to the auction?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1,1&item=4638262662&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT

He states that the engine runs, but needs electrical work. It's been so long since this engine has run there's no way he could know if it still runs.

He also had the fuel line laying across the manifold. If I hadn't noticed and were able to actually start the car I'd probably be dead or in ICU right now.


So what would you think is fair compensation? The body isn't in terrible shape from what I can tell. Although it does have a lot of filler on it so I won't know till I sand it all down. The rust isn't too bad. Although all the sound deadener everywhere makes it difficult to see for sure.


I started up a sight to monitor my progress of the restoration (started it before I found out about the engine).

There's a few pics there if you want to see some pics other then what is shown at the auction site.


http://home.stx.rr.com/rackcharger/


Thanks for the replies! I will now come down from my $3,500 refund "demands". I'll ask for $2,500 now until I get some more info.


If all goes well hopefully it'll turn out better in the long run. I'll probably just end up putting a new engine in it and not have to worry about it for a few thousand miles.

[694spdRT]

My view is if the car would have had the "original #'s matching" 440 vs a 383 you are behind at $3,500.  I don't see the seller advertising that so I assume your main concern is because a 440 engine of some kind is not in there. Because of that it depends on what you expected and what was advertised at the time of purchase. A rebuildable 440 is worth less than a running and usable 440 etc.  $500 will possibly get you a core that you can then spend the money to rebuild. So that will not really get you square in my opinion. 

BTW: A Charger R/T never came with a 383 from the factory so it is not correct no matter what you do. For future reference, if you look in the pictures of the auction there is no machined pad to the left of the water pump so that is a giveaway that it is a "B" engine 383/400.

[Wakko]

You can see from the photo it's not a 440 but he obviously lied about the VIN.  XS denotes R/T Charger but if the VIN is XP than it's obviously not.   I bet you're going to find alot of nasty stuff under the filler.  If it's not an R/T, it's probably worth about 7k as it is.  Maybe more if the body is solid underneath the primer.

[694spdRT]

Rack posted it is XS29 on the Vin tag so it should be an R/T unless some tag swapping was done. It is difficult to prove that in '68 without the fender tag to compare the body numbers too.

[Blown70]

Rack posted it is XS29 on the Vin tag so it should be an R/T unless some tag swapping was done. It is difficult to prove that in '68 without the fender tag to compare the body numbers too.

As mention by Ty here, if you do not have the tag or build sheet I do not know that you can check the stampings on a 68.  One of the other 68 pros may chime in. 

I guess continue to ask, I would not go for less than 2500 you will need that to build a good 440 and if it was not well he is out and lying. 

your call a 440 plain or non magnum will run you 250-500 sometimes you can get a 68 hp for 500-1000.  Those are ball park numbers.

Tom

[Rack]

BTW: A Charger R/T never came with a 383 from the factory so it is not correct no matter what you do. For future reference, if you look in the pictures of the auction there is no machined pad to the left of the water pump so that is a giveaway that it is a "B" engine 383/400.

Thanks. Yeah the pad was the first thing I looked for. When I couldn't find it, I looked where the "B" pad is located and there it was. That's when I checked the casting number (by the way, it turns out I had crawled under the car right next to a black widow while I was checking the casting number. But that's another story) to verify. I even checked the casting number on the heads as well.


Thanks for all the replies so far. I'm hoping to recoup at least 2K. In the end, it'll cost the seller less to refund 2K then what it would cost to pay me back the $9500, plus $800 for shipping, plus what it would cost to have it shipped back to him, plus court costs if it goes that far.

[dodge freak]

If you have to go to court ask for all your money back. Take the postion that you would have never bid on the car if he was honest. You always can work your way down, but not up. This is why I would never buy a car on e-bay. $200 or so is tops what I bid on there, some sellers are great but some should be in jail.

[Rack]

If you have to go to court ask for all your money back. Take the postion that you would have never bid on the car if he was honest. You always can work your way down, but not up. This is why I would never buy a car on e-bay. $200 or so is tops what I bid on there, some sellers are great but some should be in jail.

Yeah I knew it was a risk. I really should have been more patient and waited for something closer to me to be up for bid so I can actually go look at it.

And that is great advice. If it does go to court, I won't be asking for a partial refund. I'll be trying to get it all back, plus the shipping cost. Mediation through squaretrade is a favor to the seller as far as I'm concerned. It's a chance for him to make right on his mistake (intentional or not). If he refuses then he'll end up losing the $9,500, plus the shipping cost, and he'll have to pay his own shipping cost to get the car back and his court fees.

Hopefully this will all be settled soon cuz I'm anxious to get to work on that car.

[dodge freak]

Most likely it won't, things like this take time, and money too. How long did he own it? If it was a few years he knew what motor it had. Wonder too how much bondo is on it, you might be ok then again if hes the type to lied about the motor what else did he do. Might be why the electrical wiring is all shot, its a rust bucket. I do hope things work out for you, please keep us up to date and don't let get you down too much, life goes on and we learn from our mistakes, we have all done dumb things and trusting people is one I did a few times.

[Rack]

Most likely it won't, things like this take time, and money too. How long did he own it? If it was a few years he knew what motor it had. Wonder too how much bondo is on it, you might be ok then again if hes the type to lied about the motor what else did he do. Might be why the electrical wiring is all shot, its a rust bucket. I do hope things work out for you, please keep us up to date and don't let get you down too much, life goes on and we learn from our mistakes, we have all done dumb things and trusting people is one I did a few times.

He claims he had the car since 1988. I'm pretty sure he did know it was the wrong engine. If he really felt the engine was a 440 he wouldn't of even offered me the $500. He offered the $500 hoping I'd take it, he'd still have 9K, and he still would of screwed me over.

Like I said, I'll go as far with this as it takes. I feel confident a court of law will side with me when it comes down to it. If the law starts siding with con artists the american people are in trouble.

[Chryco Psycho]

Welcome to the site
too bad about the problems with your car
CP

[Wakko]

Is it really an RT though?  That's more important than what size motor is in it.

[8WHEELER]

It could still be an R/T, check your numbers stamped by the factory on the radiator core support, and underneath
the trunk rubber seal on the drivers side of the car on the lip. If the last 5 numbers match the last 5 numbers on your
Vin on the dash, as on those other two locations I would bet its an R/T. Its an AC car and the housing is an AC dash housing.

I don't think for a minute, he would have a donor R/T Charger, and then weld in both of those numbers. If you need
help finding the numbers you are looking for, send me an email, and I can show you pictures of a 68 R/T, and you can see
the 5 numbers you are looking for. Sometime's a little sanding is needed to find the numbers.

This is where the trunk numbers will be.......

Dan

[Rack]

Is it really an RT though?  That's more important than what size motor is in it.

It could still be an R/T, check your numbers stamped by the factory on the radiator core support, and underneath
the trunk rubber seal on the drivers side of the car on the lip. If the last 5 numbers match the last 5 numbers on your
Vin on the dash, as on those other two locations I would bet its an R/T. Its an AC car and the housing is an AC dash housing.

I don't think for a minute, he would have a donor R/T Charger, and then weld in both of those numbers. If you need
help finding the numbers you are looking for, send me an email, and I can show you pictures of a 68 R/T, and you can see
the 5 numbers you are looking for. Sometime's a little sanding is needed to find the numbers.

This is where the trunk numbers will be.......

Dan

Looks like it probably isn't an R/T in all likelihood (sp?). I just checked those numbers on the trunk that 8WHEELER mentioned and they don't match up with the vin.

Last 5 numbers on the Vin: 52836

Last 5 numbers on the trunk: b8X084150

Last 5 numbers on the radiator support: I checked but there some thick layers of black paint there (painted over the other colored paint).

Plus there's a weld line right next to that spot so it might have been conveniently removed. I did see some numbers there but I'll have to remove the radiator to get a clear look at them. Not sure, but it seems they're upside down too, actually making it easier to read them after I remove the radiator. I could be wrong though. Those numbers aren't as clearly indented as the ones on the trunk.

Would this info be enough to take him to court and win? Forget about the engine. Hell, the engine is probably the original. It's the DASH that's fake!

I guess there was a "no hope" R/T out there that he took the dash from?

[8WHEELER]

That's to bad, I was hoping the numbers would match for you. It could be the original dash housing. There are people
that sell the rosett rivets for the Vin tag, so the tag itself could have been changed 

Dan

[Rack]

One other question though...


Since I didn't plan on doing a complete original restoration (can't do that with this car if I wanted to anyway) does it really matter that it's not an R/T?

I can still put a 440 in it, right? I had planned on making a few changes to the car anyway (front suspension, brakes, shaved doors, power windows, no chrome trim, etc...) so an R/T wouldn't make a difference in my case, right?


Also, since it's not an R/T, what would be a fair amount of money to request the seller give back to me? Or should I just try and recoup all of it and look for a different charger (one closer to me so I can actually go look at it)?


I understand if I was doing a complete original restoration an R/T would be a lot more valuable then a regular charger, but I don't plan on selling the car. I'm resto/modding it in memory of my nephew, and when his son is old enough I'll give him the car (or I may just give the car to his father when I finish it, not sure yet). So the resell value of the car isn't that much of a concern to me. The main thing is I need the car to last another 15-20 years before it's ready for another load of restoring (regardless of what Charger I end up with, I'll be completely dismantling it and treating it to help prevent rust from the ground up).


Or would you all recommend I do what I can to get all my money back and get another charger? I'm 100% new to this so any and all advice would be greatly appreciated.

[694spdRT]

Dan,

In 1968 isn't it the case that the Vin# will not match the body stampings? The body stampings will match the order number located on the fender tag and if he doesn't have a fender tag or broadcast sheet there is no way to tell.

Starting in 1969 the Vin# will match the body stampings.

[Blown70]

Dan,

In 1968 isn't it the case that the Vin# will not match the body stampings? The body stampings will match the order number located on the fender tag and if he doesn't have a fender tag or briadcst sheet there is now way to tell.

Starting in 1969 the Vin# will match the body stampings.

Thank you.  Dan,  I too thought that in 68 is was a sequence or order # that was stamped on 68's and NOT the vin.?  Or did I hit my head really hard yesterday?

Tom

[Brock Samson]

 Welcome to the site Dan!

   Sorry for this sellers obvious criminal behavior...
I'm just curious as to the sellers response when you asked for a full refund...
I would insist and threaten the bastard,.. I mean cut spark plug wires?!..
That's just too much.

there have had a half dozen or so really shady cars passed off on folks who have posted here.

If ya do get stuck with that bondo buggy, and it is a good starting point? I'd guess that any "decent" start up '68--70 charger project at approx $8K... so, by that measurement your almost within limits.
these cars in any shape are becomming rare and highly sought after.
Take a look at TerribleOnes' '68 for example.
Since you'r gonna go your own way a clone R/T is preferable to a returned to stock condition car.

Good Luck & WELCOME to the Jungle! !


   

[TylerCharger69]

I have a question...off base from the topic....but  what are you going to do with those rims on there???

[andy74]

there is a article in this months hemmings muscle machines about a scum bag that did the same thing more than once,swapping vins etc-if you decide to pursue it in court i would look over the article and have all of your facts,including the e bay auction description to back you up-just my 2 cents,Andy

[TylerCharger69]