Rebuilding my first 440, and I've used the search function! :)

[Bandit4142]

Hi everyone.   Well, my project is starting off in typical "project" fashion, and now that I have my supposed to be good running 383 running.........  it has a rod knocking.   Fortunately, I also bought the guys "Extra" parts cars, and motors.   Well, the first 440mag is just, plain, tired....  low compression across the board.    Which led me to my "supposed" fresh 440 mag with a flat cam....  well, turns out it doesn't carry any oil pressure....  So....  I've decided to tackle my first 440 rebuild.    My tentative plan is a stock rebuild short block with Edlebrock heads, an intake, and a small cam.   

Before I dig into this, I was curious, has anyone compared rebuilding a 440 to buying a "Crate Motor" or reman motor in regards to money?   I have no idea how much any of these will generally run, and haven't really seen anything on the net.   Jasper Engine charges $4096 for a LONG-BLOCK performance rebuild, but I haven't had the best luck with Jasper....   I can't find anywhere that lists prices buying crate motors directly from Dodge....  And I haven't found anything here on the board in relation to what guys have typically ended up spending on a motor that they rebuilt themselves.   

Also:

1.  What turn-around times should I expect from "Machine Shops"?   a month....  two months.... 6 months....  a year???
2.  Has anyone found a particular parts supplier to be better than most?   Or should I just use Summit or Jegs?
3.  Ball park price on a descent shortblock rebuild?   
4.  Re-building your 440 heads vs. buying Edlebrock RPM heads in regards to price?   Are the Edlebrock's worth the money?


I would like to thank anyone that may have some insight into these questions, and I sincerely apologize for my noob questions.  Its been several years since I've started a project of this caliber.  Thank you in advance.

[greenpigs]

I can help with #4.

To dip the heads costs $35 and ma gnuflux then about $25 to start with.

My plan is to use a set of 906's and have new valve guides installed which is going to cost about $180 for the new guides and about 100 to install them. Then reuse my old valves and springs(new MP).

If I was going to have larger valves put in thats $225 just for the valves and about $150 for the work.

Then I need to blend the bowls, I could do it but will not and thats about $175. Then have the heads cc and thats about $50.

Then mill the heads to true up the surface which is about $45.

So that brings the total to $985 and thats for cast iron heads that are still old AND with out any porting.

Buy the eldebrock heads.

I am just going to have new valve guides installed and reuse everything else, and save for a set of elebrocks or another car.

[73performance]

Well I just rebuilt a regular 440 and new valves and slides in my 906 heads, new after-market cam and new lifters and honed cylinder walls new gas pump, water pump, and distributor. Ground the crank shaft and got new timing chain and gears. And all the little stuff I forgot to list, it cost me in the end about $3,800. But it runs like a swiss watch. It all depends if you want to do the labor yourself.

[Bandit4142]

Thanks.   I do appreciate the insight, and the pricing on the head work was very helpful.   

73performance--Thank you as well, its great to some "real world" numbers from someone who has been through it.

If anyone else could share their experiences I'd love to get as much information as possible.

[Duey]

FWIW, I had a set of 346's cleaned up, fluxed, 75* plunge cut to take 2.14/1.81's, hardened seats, bronze guides, and valve seal posts machined for small teflon seals to allow double springs for $450 Cdn.

Cheers,
Duey

[TylerCharger69]

As far as turnaround time...it all depends....it can be 2 days....or it can be two months...depending on the caseload of the machine shop.  I'd get reputable references wherever you take it to.  If you take it in...and they aren't busy....I've experienced a 2 day turnaround time.  But if it's in a fairly big city....don't bank on that.   Also  remember.....Being in a hurry, and taking their time can make all the difference in your build.  A machine shop can make you...or break you.

[TylerCharger69]

Sorry...but another one of your questions.....if you use your factory heads......machine work, rebuild kit, etc.....out-the-door...pricewise is about a thousand to fifteen hundred bucks...depending on if you need balancing done or a new crank kit.  Resizing rods can be a factor too. If that needs to be done.  I have seen a machine shop screw a set of rods up during the resizing process.....the oiling holes were basically non-existent when that process was done.....(They musta been hung over that day)

[Bandit4142]

****   Also  remember.....Being in a hurry, and taking their time can make all the difference in your build.  A machine shop can make you...or break you.

No doubt about that.   I've experienced this firsthand....  The reason for my time-frame question is the last motor I had built took almost 11 months from the day I dropped off the car, to the day I picked it up.....  And I provided a short block from the dealer for the new setup....   All they had to really do was rebuild a pair of turbos and some basic head work....  Seemed like a long time to me.   Maybe I was simply being unreasonable.   

On that note, I talked to a local machine shop here in rural Colorado and here's what he told me:

1.  Rebuild stock HP heads to "Like New" would run approximately $675 for both  -  Cheaper than I expected.   But he also recommended the Edlebrock heads....
2.  Rebuild Short block with virtually all original quality parts, balance the bottom end, bore .060 over, and assemble comes to $1985.89.   -   Again cheaper than I expected....
3.  Time frame, if I dropped off the 440 this week.....   12-16 weeks....     Ok...  3-4 months, dayum....   guess I'm not going to drive her this summer.... 

Also, my understanding is my builder 440 has already been bored .030 over, that's why he said to go .060....  Somewhere I thought I read it was a bad idea to go .060 on a 440???    Especially if you don't Magnaflux the block first, which he said he wouldn't spend the money on???   

Any thoughts or insight with this information?   I sincerely apologize for all of these beginner style questions....       I just don't want a built 440 "Boat Anchor" for my money. 

[TylerCharger69]

Well...I, myself  wouldn't go .060 over   I would resleeve...but that's just me...I've heard stories of failure and overheating....and on another note...I've heard that this posed no problems at all.....so that's a decision you'd have to make on your own.    But...again...I, myself  don't ever do it.

[SeattleCharger]

  I have been trying to figure out the rebulding on my 440.    Machine shop quotes for a basically stock rebuild except for bigger cam was 3500.  But the shop that is going to put it in, "someday", ugh, said to call this one shop, they said stock was about 2500, and for engle big cam and forged pistons and a couple other small upgrades it would be about 3000.     
  Schucks has two crate motors, 1800 and 1900 bucks with a three year warranty, but everyone says don't buy one.    Jasper I heard is probably one of the best crate motors, only heard good things about them.  I didn't know they cost that much. 
   The machine shop I am going to use said three weeks about.  The first machine shop that was 3500 said a month or two, but I heard that they are having labor problems and it could take forever.   The machine shop I am going to use, the less expesive one, and it is the faster one, said the labor on the rebuild is about 8 or 9 hundred, and the rest is parts.  He said tell him my budget and he will put the money in the motor for the most bang for the buck, sounds good.   ps. I am not an expert on this at all, but have been looking into this for a while, this is just info I have found and heard from mechanics, machine shops, and some people here.  Hope this helps.

[TylerCharger69]

Man...I can get machine work...heads and all..pistons..the whole gasket kit for 1000 to 1500 out the door......but that's factory specs though  with a mild cam kit.

[Bandit4142]

  I have been trying to figure out the rebulding on my 440.    Machine shop quotes for a basically stock rebuild except for bigger cam was 3500.  But the shop that is going to put it in, "someday", ugh, said to call this one shop, they said stock was about 2500, and for engle big cam and forged pistons and a couple other small upgrades it would be about 3000.     
  Schucks has two crate motors, 1800 and 1900 bucks with a three year warranty, but everyone says don't buy one.    Jasper I heard is probably one of the best crate motors, only heard good things about them.  I didn't know they cost that much. 
   The machine shop I am going to use said three weeks about.  The first machine shop that was 3500 said a month or two, but I heard that they are having labor problems and it could take forever.   The machine shop I am going to use, the less expesive one, and it is the faster one, said the labor on the rebuild is about 8 or 9 hundred, and the rest is parts.  He said tell him my budget and he will put the money in the motor for the most bang for the buck, sounds good.   ps. I am not an expert on this at all, but have been looking into this for a while, this is just info I have found and heard from mechanics, machine shops, and some people here.  Hope this helps.

I have been looking into reman's as well....   Jasper is running $4100 for their "Class II" performance motor, which I'm not sure what it includes..  I had two Jasper engines in previous vehicles and I had very, very bad luck with both of them.   First one, wasn't a forged crank, and it was supposed to be (turbo motor), ended up spinning a rod bearing inside of 1k miles....  the replacement motor they sent me was even worse.   They sent it with cast pistons (again, bad with turbo motor), when the ringlands finally decided to leave the pistons it totally destroyed both heads and ruined what was left of the block.  Which didn't matter in the end since the #4 cylinder was bored crooked and somehow ended up egg-shaped.  Also one entire bank of cylinders was .030 where the opposing bank was .010 overbore.  The #2 cylinder was sleeved and the sleeve was sitting almost 1/4" below the deck height.  Then add that the main caps were over torqued to the point of distorting the bearings which where on their way out before the pistons let go....   The second motor described above lasted almost 7k miles, I was impressed considering how screwed up it was... 

But I have heard their domestic motors are better, I guess I'm simply "gun-shy" at this point.   I also looked at Marshall Engines, and Gopher Engines, but to date, I haven't gotten any quotes.  At this moment I would rather have the motor built by someone I've at least met face to face. 

[TylerCharger69]

I agree with Bandit....I take my engines in...disassembled.   I get them back disassembled too.    I first use my dial caliper to check the bores to make sure they are in round.  I plastigage all of my bearings.  When I install pistons,  I always place the rings in the cylinder bore first and check the ring end gaps, and file if needed.    I can go on and on...but the point I'm trying to get across is  I assemble all of my engines myself.   Always check the machine shops work before assembly.   If they assemble it, then you'll never know if they made a mistake or not.   A small mistake could cause catastrophic damage, and no one wants to pull a motor right after it was installed.  Self assembly  saves a lot of money, and the truth is.....these older engines are not difficult to put together. You just never know when some drunk, dumbass, so-called machinist came in to work with a hangover and assembled YOUR engine with an  i don't give a s**t attitude and got in a hurry so he could go home to his bottle of Maalox.   I've seen it happen too many times, so if you have decent mechanical abilities.....assemble it yourself, save some cash  to put in the gas tank when you're done, and don't be afraid to ask questions.   There are plenty of knowledgeable members here that will be glad to help you out during this process, myself included.    Remember.....there are no stupid questions.....but there are stupid mistakes!!!

[SeattleCharger]

  Ok, I can no longer say I have only heard good things about them (Jasper), that is harsh.   My brother just put a Jasper 270 hp 350 chevy in his bayliner, hope it holds up, has run well so far in four or five outings.  I won't tell him your story.    Sounds like the crate motor route is just to risky, hit and miss.   I am going with a machine shop, 3000 bucks, costs less than Jasper anyways, and you can get more what you want in terms of parts.  

[TylerCharger69]

Dang  people!!!    Get the machining done,  get the parts.....I'll assemble these engines for half their price!!!!!!!

[Bandit4142]

Ok, I met with the local machinest today.  One thing I liked, he was a "one-man" operation, consquently, the lengthy lead-time involved.  I was also impressed with the fact that I showed up unannounced and without an appointment, and this guys shop was as clean as any dust-free enviroment I've ever been in.  I'll bet you could almost eat off the floors in his shop.   The equipment appeared to be in exceptional condition and just as clean as the rest of the shop.   His explanation for his lead time was, when he gets a motor to build, he builds that motor.   Currently he has two, one he is assembling and one that he had dis-assembled and was "hot-tanking".   When I walked over to the area with the motor being assembled, everything was spotless other than areas with assembly lube, and both motors had very distinct areas where they and their individual parts resided.   Simply put, I was impressed with this gentleman's shop so far.   

[mikepmcs]

 

[Chryco Psycho]

perosnally I am not a fan of the eddy heads for me & most of my customers I still like Iron heads  the keep in more heat & modified make a lot of power , eddys are not bolt on with no issues & you have to run more compression & get into piston valve clearance & header clearance problems among other problems or if you are spending the $$ to go to alum buy a good head liek the Bull dog or Indy EZ

[Bandit4142]

perosnally I am not a fan of the eddy heads for me & most of my customers I still like Iron heads  the keep in more heat & modified make a lot of power , eddys are not bolt on with no issues & you have to run more compression & get into piston valve clearance & header clearance problems among other problems or if you are spending the $$ to go to alum buy a good head liek the Bull dog or Indy EZ

Please, Please, by all means give me more information on proper modifications to factory iron heads!?!   Personally, I would like to retain the factory heads, but I don't want to sacrafice performance in the name of saving money or staying original.   I honestly thought, from what I'd read, that the Eddy heads were vastly superior in both flow & design characteristics to our factory iron.  And when I was told that it was going to cost anywhere from $750-$1k to go through factory heads, the next logical choice to me appeared to be the eddy's. 

If you don't feel like posting your opinion publically, please send me a PM when you get time.  Thank you.

[SeattleCharger]

   I am interested in knowing about modifying stock 440 heads also.   

          

[Duey]

FWIW, I had a set of 346's cleaned up, fluxed, 75* plunge cut to take 2.14/1.81's, hardened seats, bronze guides, and valve seal posts machined for small teflon seals to allow double springs for $450 Cdn.

Cheers,
Duey

Guys, check around yourselves.  Your local area may not be nearly so high as some of the kilo-dollar quotes.

I'll be starting to bowl blend the heads and will take pics.  If I even get 240-250cfm out of the head's I'll be happy...saving for some Indy's down the road.

Cheers,
Duey

[Bandit4142]

FWIW, I had a set of 346's cleaned up, fluxed, 75* plunge cut to take 2.14/1.81's, hardened seats, bronze guides, and valve seal posts machined for small teflon seals to allow double springs for $450 Cdn.

Cheers,
Duey

Guys, check around yourselves.  Your local area may not be nearly so high as some of the kilo-dollar quotes.

I'll be starting to bowl blend the heads and will take pics.  If I even get 240-250cfm out of the head's I'll be happy...saving for some Indy's down the road.

Cheers,
Duey

Duey, I understand where you are coming from in a sense of checking out local sources, but I live over 130 miles from anykind of metro area.  There is only one machine shop in the entire 3 county area, and that one quoted me between $750-$1k if the heads needed only "re-freshed".   His comment was, if they needed any work at all, the price would rise past the price of the Eddy's quickly.....    In that same respect, I've been intouch with friends within the Mopar crowd on the front range, and I've been told there aren't any "Good" places to take a set of Mopar heads....  this means shipping them out of state, and to me that doesn't make sense if with what I've read in regards to the quality of the Eddy's is true.....   

Now, if someone gave me a "Grocery List" of adequate modifications that could be completed to factory iron heads for a reasonable amount of money...  say for under $1k, and have them perform equal (or close) to Eddy's, then I'd be all over it.   Especially since others have commented on some issues with Eddy's that I wasn't aware of.