UPDATE on the 440 I bought from a friend HA HA, 7/6/06 ''HELP''

[8WHEELER]

I asked you guys your opinion on a 60 over 70, 440 not to long ago. Well it turned out it was 30 over, so I bought it.

I just took off all of the clear wrapping that the engine was sealed with. Good news was there was no rust BUT.....

He told me this was a 30 over 70 440, all new
rocker arms   
rocker shafts
crank 10/10
push rods

Well I broke the golden rule, allways check for yourself before you pay. Its not a 70 440, The wrapping on it was so thick
I could not read the engine pad but trusted this ''friend''.

Now what year is this engine? could be 73 or 78 can't tell?
Does it have the good crank? there is a picture.

I have not popped the head off yet to make sure it is 30 over, nor have I made sure they are 6pk rods as he said.

Please help with all facts on this thing I may have missed, I am asking for my 3k back from this guy, I think most people would.

Anyway Thanks Dan

[Chargerguy74]

I'd be furious. Is the crank cast?

[8WHEELER]

Also I have never seen the round indentations, two on the front top of the block near the engine pad and on the rear.
Must be a 73-78 440 canting thing I have never seen before.

Also this guy says its no big deal just to drop the ''new'' long block right on the concrete with no pan
just right on the rods and crank, I would never have thought to do this after working on engines for 27yrs.
So after unwrapping the engine the  block is busted as you can see, maybe other problems.

Dan

[Duey]

You have a 1974 model year truck engine.  I think they had forged cranks and you may also see extra webbing on the outside of the engine block...some truck and industrial engines had this.

4T 440T

4 = 1974
T = Trenton, NJ plant
440 = displacement
T = Truck block


If this block was made earlier than Sept 13, 1973 it might have been a "letter" block, i.e.   K 440.  (1974 model year engines were K or 4)

Cheers,
Duey

[8WHEELER]

You have a 1974 model year truck engine.  I think they had forged cranks and you may also see extra webbing on the outside of the engine block...some truck and industrial engines had this.

4T 440T

4 = 1974
T = Trenton, NJ plant
440 = displacement
T = Truck block


If this block was made earlier than Sept 13, 1973 it might have been a "letter" block, i.e.   K 440.  (1974 model year engines were K or 4)

Cheers,
Duey

Ok thanks, I was not sure what the other T and 4 stood for, I new that one of the T's stood for truck but the 4 I was not clear.

Can a person tell if it is a cast crack or not buy looking at the picture of the back end? I can tell the crank had a 4sp at one time.

Dan

[Duey]

I don't Dan, but one of the guys will know...if it had an auto, you'd know because a forged crank is internally balanced and the converter would not have any additional weights.  I recall the front damper being different on the forged or cast, but can't remember the detail...

Duey

[RallyeMike]

Pop the pan off and shoot and post the crank. It's prety easy to tell cast from forged just looking at it. The shafts look new. Rockers could be new too - just rusty cuz never oiled. Of course with the busted block, it's being returned anyway, right?....   

[8WHEELER]

Yep he is getting this thing back, the rockers are old originals for sure, the pits are real deep. I can't believe he
would put in new shafts and put old deep pitted rocker arms, I mean I have never had a set that were this bad,
the oil on them keeps them from pitting.

Oh and on the crank, like I said he never had a pan on it to take off, I still have it over on the side, its a good
original Hemi pan, he just set the complete rebuilt engine on the concrete  ''no pan'' or anything underneath it 

Dan

[RallyeMike]

he just set the complete rebuilt engine on the concrete  ''no pan'' or anything underneath it

[firefighter3931]

Sorry to hear that Dan....i know you were excited about this engine. I have to wonder what this guy's thinking...setting an engine on the crank/rods is not something i'd do...we're in agreement there ! 

And that busted ear 

Time to build your own....at least you'll know it's been done right 


Ron

[John_Kunkel]

You have a 1974 model year truck engine.  I think they had forged cranks and you may also see extra webbing on the outside of the engine block...some truck and industrial engines had this.

4T 440T

4 = 1974
T = Trenton, NJ plant

Actually, that's Trenton, Michigan; just down river from Detroit.

If this block was made earlier than Sept 13, 1973 it might have been a "letter" block, i.e.   K 440.  (1974 model year engines were K or 4)

The lower stamping on the data pad is 10 16 2, assembled on October 16, 1973; second shift.

[Duey]

You have a 1974 model year truck engine.  I think they had forged cranks and you may also see extra webbing on the outside of the engine block...some truck and industrial engines had this.

4T 440T

4 = 1974
T = Trenton, NJ plant

Actually, that's Trenton, Michigan; just down river from Detroit.

If this block was made earlier than Sept 13, 1973 it might have been a "letter" block, i.e.   K 440.  (1974 model year engines were K or 4)

The lower stamping on the data pad is 10 16 2, assembled on October 16, 1973; second shift.

Didn't know there was a Trenton, MI...

John, is the Sept 13 the cast date then, on the block? (as opposed to the assy date)

Cheers,
Duey

[Sublime/Sixpack]

Sorry to hear that Dan....i know you were excited about this engine. I have to wonder what this guy's thinking...setting an engine on the crank/rods is not something i'd do...we're in agreement there ! 

And that busted ear 

Time to build your own....at least you'll know it's been done right 


Ron

[TylerCharger69]

That busted ear for the starter  he needs a good 'ol fashioned  behind the woodshed what-for!!!

[MOPARHOUND!]

Most 440 cast crank engines (if not all) have E stamped on the pad up top, your's doesn't.

Also, the 4 speed truck 440 engines used forged cranks, presumably for strength and the balance issue, long after they were phased out of the passenger cars.

A pic of the balancer, or a crank counter weight would tell the story.

Cast cranks have 440 cast into the counter weight edge, and have a balancer much thicker than the forged crank 440s..

[8WHEELER]

Most 440 cast crank engines (if not all) have E stamped on the pad up top, your's doesn't.

Also, the 4 speed truck 440 engines used forged cranks, presumably for strength and the balance issue, long after they were phased out of the passenger cars.

A pic of the balancer, or a crank counter weight would tell the story.

Cast cranks have 440 cast into the counter weight edge, and have a balancer much thicker than the forged crank 440s..

That is another problem with this engine. He says it has 6pk rods, so I asked him if he had it balanced, he said yes,
but there is no balancer that came with this engine, I found out after taking off the thick plastic wrapping. I have
always had my engines balanced with the balancer, and the 6pk engines use a thicker balancer as well I believe, I
know it is not the same.

Dan

[Brock Samson]

six pack engines are externally balanced.

[Blown70]

ERRR, ahhh May I ask how good a friend of yours this was.  No offense, does not sound too much like a friend to me.  Not trying to be an as5.  But, I someone tried to even sell me something like that I would not be reffering to them as my friend.

Tom

[dodge freak]

A old friend of mine 25 years ago who was 50 at the  time told me you should never buy or sell cars or anything that is a great sum of money between friends. He said its the sures way to lose that friendship. I guess this is what he was talking about.

[Silver R/T]

id be pissed

[8WHEELER]

Well I got ahold of him today, he can't believe its not a 70 engine    Then I talked to him about the broken
parts no timing chain cover and 6pk dampener. He can't believe that either, he thinks he has a dampener at
home still, but would have to check, I told him with all the other problems that at this point I would just like my
3k back and he can have his 74 truck engine  . 

I was nice about it, but you could tell he was not happy it was a 74 block, broken and he was going to have to
come get it. Everything should be fine, he said he was coming over Monday or Tuesday to pick it up, I hope he
remembers he said he was going to bring my money back as well    he is a nice guy.


Dan

[terrible one]

Good deal man.

I like that 'cuda

[Silver R/T]

nice cuda

[RTPTRON]

Dan, as you well know, everybody in the Northwest knows that Cuda.

Your "FRIEND" knows you very well and had to be an idiot to pull something like that on you.   I thought Mr. Le---s was much smarter about what he has.  He may have been scammed on this engine himself.

Just get your money back and re-learn your lession about looking before buying.

[TylerCharger69]

 

[8WHEELER]

Dan, as you well know, everybody in the Northwest knows that Cuda.

Your "FRIEND" knows you very well and had to be an idiot to pull something like that on you.   I thought Mr. Le---s was much smarter about what he has.  He may have been scammed on this engine himself.

Just get your money back and re-learn your lession about looking before buying.

Thanks for the sympathy Ron    He knew what he had, the last engine he took to have the machine work
done was a 70 440, and they took it out 60 over and said it would need a sleeve to make one cylinder OK at 60 over.

So he bought another block, he has 5 or 6 440's in his garage, and this was going into his 440 6pk Cuda Clone, so
he wanted a 70 engine he said. I know he was just going to flip the car, but he told me 6 or 7 things about this
engine that were flat wrong, and he is a smart guy as you know..........

And I don't think I need to re-learn my lession about looking before buying, You know him as well as I do, I think
you would have done the same thing I did if you were in my shoes, infact I know you would have.

I should not have posted pictures of one of his other cars.........

Dan

[RTPTRON]

Thanks for the sympathy Ron    He knew what he had, the last engine he took to have the machine work
done was a 70 440, and they took it out 60 over and said it would need a sleeve to make one cylinder OK at 60 over.

So he bought another block, he has 5 or 6 440's in his garage, and this was going into his 440 6pk Cuda Clone, so
he wanted a 70 engine he said. I know he was just going to flip the car, but he told me 6 or 7 things about this
engine that were flat wrong, and he is a smart guy as you know..........

And I don't think I need to re-learn my lession about looking before buying, You know him as well as I do, I think
you would have done the same thing I did if you were in my shoes, infact I know you would have.

I should not have posted pictures of one of his other cars.........

Dan

You're absolutely right Dan about everything you said. I just don't want to believe that he would do something like that.  I've known him since 2001 when we were doing a few PT Cruiser events together and have always seen him as a good guy. 

Ya, I would have done exactly the same thing because I would have believed everything he said about what he was selling.

I'm sorry Dan if I didn't sound very sympathetic because I am.  I just have to deal, as you do also, with the fact that a person we thought we knew tried to scam you.  This is the hard lesson.

As always man, I'm on your side.

[8WHEELER]

Ok, Thanks Ron 

Dan

[8WHEELER]

Well the ' friend' HA HA, I bought this engine from will not evan come over and see the broken parts, or
the wrong year engine or old parts that I was told were new and they were not. Well now he tells me I
broke the block and I am lying, funny, because he set it down on my plastic Dolly himself 

So after seeing all the other problems with the engine, and the fact he will not come over, call, or give me
my money back, plus he never did give me the balancer, timing chain cover or the paper work from the
machine shop that he said he would.

I took the heads off of the 440 today, to make sure its only 30 over, because the paper work he showed me
said 60 over, but he told me it was just bored 30 over with new everything, pistons and all new valve train on and on.

Well do these look like new pistons to you? the paper work says KB pistons 10-1 comp. I don't have any info on
what these numbers mean, but it is indeed a 30 over piston, at least that is what the pistons tell us. I have never
seen a machine shop that align bored and honed a 30 over fresh block and put in used pistons, with god
only knows how many miles on them, but they did clean them up pretty good..

I don't evan know what to do now   

Dan

[Rack]

8WHEELER, I feel for you man. I thought I got screwed on my deal, but I made out pretty good compared to you. At least it wasn't a "Friend" that screwed me over.

I hope you get your money back and everything gets taken care of. Keep us updated.

[Wakko]

Those are TRW/Sealed Power pistons.  With 78cc heads they provide 11.34 CR and with 88cc provide 10.34.  They're a heavy piston and fairly inexpensive.

[8WHEELER]

Those are TRW/Sealed Power pistons.  With 78cc heads they provide 11.34 CR and with 88cc provide 10.34.  They're a heavy piston and fairly inexpensive.

Thanks

I thought they were TRW's, but the paper work he showed me said KB then a number, then next to that it said TRW.

My TRW's in the car now, have a much larger dome, I was told 26yrs ago when I bought them and put them in my engine,
that it would be 11.5 comp with open chamber heads. I no longer have my paper work, and never put the number down
anywhere. And I have the 915 closed chamber heads on the engine in the car now.

Not only are these pistons used, they look very old if you ask me, the 26yr old TRW's in my car now looked this good the
last time I had the heads off.

Dan

[mikepmcs]

Dan
and use this thread when you take him to court.  everyone on here knows you're an honest guy, so maybe if the judge or whatever sees all these post and character witnesses and the story from the start........ you get the idea.
that friends thing will get you every time, i have the same kind of situation going on right now with a buddy of mine that i let use my boat  a few times.  now my 1 year old boat has a ripped interior, i missing piece of the seat foam, my lower unit has about 1/3 of the trim fin missing, and i need a new prop.  Then when you discuss it with them, they get all defensive like it's not their fault.  Unbelievable.  I will not let it strain the friendship because it's my fault thinking other people would respect my stuff, my bad. Boat is at my house now and that's where it stays.  oh and get this, then he asks to borrow my conv corvette for the weekend so him and his wife can take a cruise up the coast. yeah and knife to my interior, a couple of ring scratches on the door, a busted glass from improper stowage of the top, etc....  hmmm  let me think about this.....NOT!   
thanks for letting me rant, i feel your pain, and don't let up on this guy, he misrepresented this motor and you shouldn't have to take that!!!!!
good luck
v/r
Mike

[694spdRT]

I have the same pistons is a 440 short block too. Wakko is right about the part number and getting them to be pump gas friendly is nearly impossible. I plan on having mine milled flat and rebalanced.

[8WHEELER]

Yeah, that is what I am trying to get away from, I don't race anymore so I don't need the high compression.
He said the engine had 'new' 10.0 compression pistons in it......... well no. I actually did not want to go more than
9.5 with todays gas and just street driving, but I know with some tuning you can still run 10.0 on the
street just not very hard, and that is fine by me at this point.

This is how I got the engine, evan he thought the timing chain cover and balancer were on it. But as you can
tell you can't see much through the plastic, its good plastic, but it hides all of the problems with the engine, and
missing parts as well. Next time, if there is a next time, I will rip all of the plastic away before I wright the check
pay him and get it home 

Dan

[8WHEELER]

He also had the head surfaced at least, but withought the paper work I don't know how much.

It has new exhaust valves, but the original intakes sure did rust up fast, nothing else has fresh rust.
The rockers are rusty, but they are deep pits more than fresh rust, and not in the engine........

Dan

[charge-it]

Friend or not he would either come and get that pos and refund my money or I wouldn`t hesitate to sue him. You got ripped plain and simple. Want he represented to you is not what he sold you. Must be a good friend if he won`t believe you. Cross him off the xmas card list!

[8WHEELER]

Yeah I know great guy, he is evan in our Mopar Club, and we only have 101 members so everybody is hearing about this thing.
I did not want to make a big deal about it, but the more I check out this engine the more problems I find 

He was going to come over the Monday before last, and look at it and give  me the balancer and paper work, have
not seen or heard a thing from him..........

Like I said before I did not want to raise a big stink with this guy, but 3k for this mess is money I can't afford to loose.

Dan

[Runner]

acually its not uncomon to see used pistons in a fresh bored block.   if the pistons are good still and check out why not reuse them?.   my biggest problem with what i see is the pistons werent cleaned to the point that i would have cleaned them.

    it definatly looks like you got screwed, sorry to hear that

[8WHEELER]

acually its not uncomon to see used pistons in a fresh bored block.   if the pistons are good still and check out why not reuse them?.   my biggest problem with what i see is the pistons werent cleaned to the point that i would have cleaned them.

    it definatly looks like you got screwed, sorry to hear that

I agree to a point, I took the 440 engine in the car now out in 91, I took it to the machine shop to have them check
the bore and polish the crank. Well my engine was 30 over already and the bore and pistons checked out fine.

So I brought everthing home, bought a new set of rings and bearings, miked the rods and the crank ''OK' then
gaped every ring to each cylinder and piston, so I put the same 30 over pistons back in the same 30 over block
That it came out of.

I myself would not put used pistons into a fresh 30 over block. What one of the problem is, is that I was told that the
pistons were new 30 over pistons and they are not.

Dan

[Runner]

so if you had a motor that was say 3 years old but still real nice but cracked the block you wouldnt have a block done up and and swap everything in to it?.    i would in a heart beat.

[694spdRT]

Worse than having "used" pistons is the fact the 2295's while forged are not very desirable street engine pistons. If they were the preferred six pack TRW 2255's or even the low compression TRW 2266's you would have a decent forged piston that would work on pump gas without needing a shortblock teardown. The problem is you were told "new" pistons....I guess he meant new to you.

I have been trying to make my shortblock pump gas friendly and it is not possible. You "may" get by if the block has not been decked much, the heads have big chambers, use thick head gaskets, and run a big duration cam to bleed off some cylinder pressure. All of these bandaids make the 3K you spent even more iritating.

Plain and simple you got a raw deal from your "friend" Dan. 

[8WHEELER]

so if you had a motor that was say 3 years old but still real nice but cracked the block you wouldnt have a block done up and and swap everything in to it?.    i would in a heart beat.

No I am not saying that under no circumstansis would I NOT use a used piston, I had a set of flat top pistons that
were 30 over, and when I put them in a box all wrapped up 26yrs ago, I thought about using them on an engine
I was going to build. But after opening the box and checking the pistons I found that mice had got in there over
the years and had rusted the piston pins beyond belief.  I don't feel like arguing about something that has not happened.

The fact is, if you or I sold a fresh rebuilt 30 over engine, and used old or pistons that had been used before,
we would tell the buyer of these facts, at least I sure would. We would not sell it and say the pistons were NEW.

Dan

[Runner]

want trying to be argumentative, sorry you took it that way.

[firefighter3931]

Dan, i sure hope you get this resolved to your satisfaction. Those 2295's are the old pop up style (dome) that trw used to make and are now being produced by speedpro. If the block hasn't been decked ; they should be ~.050 in the hole. The dome volume is 12cc in case you were wondering....

With a big open chamber head and thick large bore composite head gasket it's possible to get the static compression down into the 10:1 range. Not that any of this matters because the engine is going back....as it should due to the misrepresentation on the part of the so-called friend (seller). Lets hope "peer pressure" influences him into doing the right thing. 


Ron

[Silver R/T]

ive seen family members fight for less than $3000. I dont think he deserves to be called friend

[8WHEELER]

Dan, i sure hope you get this resolved to your satisfaction. Those 2295's are the old pop up style (dome) that trw used to make and are now being produced by speedpro. If the block hasn't been decked ; they should be ~.050 in the hole. The dome volume is 12cc in case you were wondering....

With a big open chamber head and thick large bore composite head gasket it's possible to get the static compression down into the 10:1 range. Not that any of this matters because the engine is going back....as it should due to the misrepresentation on the part of the so-called friend (seller). Lets hope "peer pressure" influences him into doing the right thing. 


Ron

Hey Ron
I was hoping you would see this thread, I don't think you have been on the site since the evening I updated this bundle of fun 

You like those used piston, I mean new pistons HA HA...... Yep god only knows how old those pistons are.
Like I  said before, the pistons in my engine now have a much larger done, but they are the same TRW old stile units.
And I really don't want more than 9.5 compresion, just don't need it in this car, and I drive long distances.

He did say the machine shop told him the engine was about 10.0 to 1 compression. But are they new pistons    umm no.

I would like to use this thread to help me with my court case, so anything that you and others can say to help me with this problem
would help me out. And I want the truth as always, I am not making things up, I don't pull BS like that.

He said he was coming over the Monday before last  right, no show no call yet.....................
So he still has not seen any of these problem, not evan these pictures, yet I am the liar and thief 'RIGHT'


Also, has anybody seen these indentations in a 440 before?  I have taken the pictures to machine shops that like doing
big block mopars, and I can't find anybody who has seen them. I was trying to buy an engine that would still look like
a correct 68 block, without reading the block numbers. But these notches stand out like a soar thumb screaming not
correct for a 70 and older block that I was buying, or thought I was buying, and I sure would never put this in my
car, in a truck no problem, but they were never in a 70 or older 440  what do you think........

Buy the way, just taking of the one head, rust poured out of some area not real sure, took some time cleaning it out of
every cylinder. I lifted the head off very slowly, so I can't figure out where all this crap came from. But there was a lot.

Thanks Dan

[RTPTRON]

Hello Dan,

I value my relationship with both you guys.  However, our relationship is much closure than mine and Tim's.

That being said, there is no way that anyone with any knowledge whatsoever could read this threat with all of the great picture documentation and backup from experts on this board and come to any conclusion but that you were mislead and should be refunded your money.

If you can settle out of court it will save you a lot of time and money.  Today, if you haven't already, you should send emails to all of the club board members asking for help in pressuring Tim do the right thing.  I would send links to this thread.  Tim needs the support of the club to promote his business and if the board members read the details of this thread they will have a hard time supporting Tim.

I would give it a week or so and then file a complant with the Better Business Bureau.  I would give him fair warning first to give him a chance to avoid having this black mark on his business.  Again, Tim is in the hobby to help promote his business, not for the love of MoPars.

Remember, you can hurt him a way more than he can hurt you.  You just have to make sure he knows that and you will get what you want.

Failing all that, just sue his ass.

[firefighter3931]

Dan, it looks like the engine has been sitting for awhile and those pistons are not 10:1 advertised....nor are they new. 

The block is a late model cast crank build originally...definately not a 70 engine....the pad stampings indicate as much. 

The valves are not stainless...or they wouldn't have rusted.  The broken ear makes for an expensive repair...i wouldn't want this block even if it was fixed. 

The flash rust concerns me....it wasn't properly lubed prior to storage.

I really don't understand some people or their motivation for screwing over others....especially people that they know. It takes years to build a good reputation and only minutes or seconds to ruin it. I can't believe this guy is that stupid....but who knows. 

If this joker is in fact running a business.....this type of behavior sure won't instill confidence to potential new customers or existing clients for that matter. If all attempts at mediation fails ; take him to small claims court and let the judge decide who's right and who's wrong. 

Ron

[8WHEELER]

Yep not good for business    and he has a business that is doing very well. But I am not saying his name
nor his business or location, that would put me at his level.

Ron did you see those notches on the block? have you seen them before? I never have, Its a 74 truck block.
But it could have come in a motor home as well if I am correct.

Dan

[firefighter3931]

Ron did you see those notches on the block? have you seen them before? I never have, Its a 74 truck block.
But it could have come in a motor home as well if I am correct.

Dan

Dan, i don't recall haveing seen those notches before on a pre-70 casting. I have a 75 block that i can check for you if you'd like. The block is bare right now but needs a good wash. Lemme know....

Ron

[8WHEELER]

OK thanks, Just checking, because I have never seen them before, and it would sure look wrong in my all stock 68 engine
bay, and stock engine appearance for the year of the car as I have now, and want to keep it that way.

Dan

[firefighter3931]

Dan, i just checked my 75 cast crank block and it has those same indentations. Perhaps it's a late model block casting identifier ??


Ron