Is this a kickdown issue?

[Dino]

I finally have the Charger on the road again, first time in 9 years, but it's all still in the testing stages. I installed the Edelbrock Pro Flo 4, and although it needs some more tweaking everything seems to work well. BUT, something's wrong and it may be the trans AND I may have damaged it. I installed a Bouchillon kickdown cable and I think I did everything right, but it doesn't seem to downshift. First time I took it out, it had no gusto at all. Putting it in neutral is revs fine, put it in drive and you have to floor it just to get it moving. I turned around and checked the trans fluid and it was so low it barely registered on the dipstick. I remember filling up the trans, but it wasn't running at the time so I never checked the level in neutral. So dumb.

Once I'm up to 2500-3000 rpm it runs pretty decent. I haven't punched it, and I don't think it would roast the tires, but at least I can keep it up to speed. Slow down for a turn and the people behind me may wonder why I'm accelerating like a Vespa. Shift in neutral and it revs fine, drop it in drive and it's a slug again.

Obviously first order is checking kickdown, but if that doesn't solve it, what's next?

[marshallfry01]

Is it actually starting out in 1st gear like it's supposed to? Do you for sure have all 3 forward gears? From your description it sounds like it may be lugging around in 2nd from a dead stop.

[Kern Dog]

Finally, a topic where knucklehead could shed some light and he is M.I.A.
I've driven cars without functioning throttle pressure (kickdown) linkage and it was still operational. It shifted early, it shifted soft and did not downshift but it engaged the gears.
One time I had a Bouchillon cable and the tab came loose in traffic. It started feeling weird for no apparent reason so I pulled over and popped the hood to see where the problem was.
Once when I did a cam swap right after a transmission swap, the car felt like it was starting in second gear with a 5000 stall converter. The fluid level was way too high but it turned out that the trans was fragged and the pump was not working right.
I hope that this isn't the case with you.

[b5blue]

I had a hell of a time just getting that linkage right after swapping to a 4BBL and thought about swapping to that kit.Play with the range a bit. (Not all the way back on the 727's lever, but up some.) 

[John_Kunkel]

Finally, a topic where knucklehead could shed some light and he is M.I.A.

Not MIA, just don't spend all day here like some. 

If you suspect the trans isn't downshifting at a stop as evidenced by sluggish acceleration, take off in Drive at light throttle and manually downshift to 2nd or 1st. If the trans downshifts to the gear selected, it is taking off in a higher gear.

Best advice when TP linkage or cable are in doubt, temporarily disconnect it at the trans lever and push the lever full forward...if there's no change in the operation, it's not the cable.

[Dino]

Awesome. Thanks guys! I won't have time to check it out until Saturday but I'll keep you posted.

[Dino]

Dang cable was off the transmission lever! Transmission is now working as it should. Sweet relief!

Car still runs like crap but that's a different story. 

[b5blue]

 

[70 sublime]

Simple fix is always best fix

[Dino]

Alright I take that back   
The cable is in place, but the car accelerates like a VW Rabbit. I cannot get the tires to spin except in reverse! Bouchillon cable has 1-1/16" travel from idle to WOT, and the trans lever is all the way back at WOT. Am I missing something or did I break this thing?

[b5blue]

How is it when you put in 1st to start and shift manually? 

[John_Kunkel]

Alright I take that back   
The cable is in place, but the car accelerates like a VW Rabbit. I cannot get the tires to spin except in reverse! Bouchillon cable has 1-1/16" travel from idle to WOT, and the trans lever is all the way back at WOT. Am I missing something or did I break this thing?

I was surprised when you said re-installing the cable fixed your problems. With the cable disconnected, it should upshift real early and downshift at a stop. Not sure if the Bouchillon cable setup is compatible with the Pro Flow throttle lever but your cable travel is way too short.

Measure the travel of the throttle lever from idle to WOT where you're attaching the cable and compare that to the travel of the trans lever...they should be NEAR the same and the trans lever does not have to be full back at WOT. Do whatever it takes to match the travel and be sure the spring is pulling the lever full forward at idle.

[Dino]

Alright I take that back 
The cable is in place, but the car accelerates like a VW Rabbit. I cannot get the tires to spin except in reverse! Bouchillon cable has 1-1/16" travel from idle to WOT, and the trans lever is all the way back at WOT. Am I missing something or did I break this thing?

I was surprised when you said re-installing the cable fixed your problems. With the cable disconnected, it should upshift real early and downshift at a stop. Not sure if the Bouchillon cable setup is compatible with the Pro Flow throttle lever but your cable travel is way too short.

Measure the travel of the throttle lever from idle to WOT where you're attaching the cable and compare that to the travel of the trans lever...they should be NEAR the same and the trans lever does not have to be full back at WOT. Do whatever it takes to match the travel and be sure the spring is pulling the lever full forward at idle.

When I was assembling this I spoke with Randy B. and he told me which brackets to try from his experience with the Pro Flo. Everything came together like he said.
According to the instructions travel should be between 1-1/8" and 1-1/4". I measured it a bit more precise just now. I have 32 mm travel at the throttle body, and 33 mm at the trans. That's a little more than spec. Could that small difference make such an impact? Is the travel fine but is this an issue with where travel begins and ends? You're the transmission expert so I'll try whatever you say.
Honestly the trans shifts totally fine and smooth as ever, but it feels like there too little pressure or something. I remember when I used to floor this from a standstill it would rev up fast, and now it's like starting in 2nd or 3rd gear. (It's not, I checked)

[Dino]

How is it when you put in 1st to start and shift manually? 

Same. Like taking off in an old truck.

[Dino]

Tomorrow I will try to make some videos so you can see and hear how it runs.

[b5blue]

 

[John_Kunkel]

According to the instructions travel should be between 1-1/8" and 1-1/4". I measured it a bit more precise just now. I have 32 mm travel at the throttle body, and 33 mm at the trans. That's a little more than spec. Could that small difference make such an impact?

No. After reading the instructions, it appears you're OK but I still differ from the instructions in all cable kits that specify the trans lever be full back at WOT. The factory linkage, when stock and properly adjusted, will leave 1/8"-1/4" of travel at WOT...this might not seem like much difference but, with certain governor configurations, it makes for late shifts and maybe no upshift at at WOT. BTDT

To verify what's been said, when you take off in manual 1st and manually upshift, it has all three gears? When you say "it doesn't seem to downshift" do you mean kickdown at WOT or doesn't downshift when coming to a stop? Does the engine idle OK in gear or seem to have an excessive rpm drop when placed in gear?

I'm thinking you might have a failed sprag in the torque converter...this would result in a reduction in stall speed. 

[Dino]

I'll try to set the cable so the lever has some play.

The trans didn't kickdown at WOT but that seems to have somewhat fixed itself. It will kick down, but it's not as easy as it should be. 3 to 2 seems to go better than 2 to 1.

Starting in 1st gear, it will fairly quickly shift into 2nd. It doesn't go into 3rd until I move it in D. I thought it should stay in 1st but maybe I'm wrong.

Hot engine, about 100 rpm drop from P to D. I could see why IAC changed, not sure what's up with idle timing.

Check the video. This is how it runs, pedal to the floor from a stop. Pathetic 
It reads 70 mph at the end, but in reality it's doing about 62 on the GPS. I guess I need a new trans gear.

https://youtu.be/gaLJR5DOxzk?si=dyHQfPAx9sWHwh8D

[metallicareload99]

My fuel injection will add in timing to help maintain the set idle speed.

Is the throttle opening 100% using the pedal?

Watch your fuel gauge in the video

[Dino]

I have one of the Tanks Inc tubular, floatless designs. It's supposed to prevent erratic needle movement and it's the complete opposite. The needle goes up and down every time you do any moderate acceleration, come to a stop, or take a turn. It goes back to where it belongs in 10-20 seconds. It's literally the worst sender I have ever seen.

Yes the throttle opens fully with the pedal down.

[Dino]

I can test the sprag with a stall test right? Put it in drive, hold the brake, and rev the engine? IF there is damage to the torque converter and I need to drop the trans, maybe I should just replace the whole thing. It's been in there for decades. What's a good torque converter for street driving?

[b5blue]

I use a Mopar Performance 145K. Perfect for my mild built 440 4BBL with a 3.23 rear.

[Dino]

That's what I have. I do have a 28" tall tire.

[John_Kunkel]

I can test the sprag with a stall test right? Put it in drive, hold the brake, and rev the engine?

Yes. These are the factory stall parameters:

[Dino]

I just did the test and it only goes up to ~1750 rpm. Bad torque converter?

I forgot to mention, the engine is from a 1971 police car. I forget what year the transmission is. I'll run the numbers tomorrow. I have no clue what torque converter I have.

I looked up my cam on the Crower site and found this:

Aftermarket torque converter with slightly higher stall speed is recommended because stock factory converters do not allow the engine to provide adequate idle speed and off idle performance.

But then I found an old message from Firefighter Ron, who recommended the Crower 33240, snd he said the stock converter is around 1800 stall and eill work great with this cam.

Color me confused

[John_Kunkel]

I just did the test and it only goes up to ~1750 rpm. Bad torque converter?

No, looks normal for a cammed 12" converter.

So far, it seems that your problems are engine related.

[Dino]

I just did the test and it only goes up to ~1750 rpm. Bad torque converter?

No, looks normal for a cammed 12" converter.

So far, it seems that your problems are engine related.

That should rule out any transmission problems then. I've just had two people on the Pro Flo board tell me they had similar issues and it turned out to be a bad injector. I will be checking those tomorrow. Thanks John!

[Dino]

Injectors checked out. I erased everything from the ECM and started over. It starts up without touching the throttle, at least when hot, I haven't tried yet when cold. In neutral it revs crisp as it should, and it settles down to 750 rpm, where I set it. Vacuum is around 12-13 at idle with timing at, goes up to about 16 when opening the throttle, and spikes to about 23 when I let go of the throttle. This is the reading on the Pro Flo app. I was about to hook up a vacuum gauge and play eith timing when the passenger HP manifold started smoking. Looks like a leak between manifold and pipe, or possibly at the heat riser but I think I welded all that. Anyway, that will have to come off and get fixed. The car still accelerates slower than it should, but it may be a little bit better. I'm not sure.
Once the manifold leak is fixed and I have timing set with good vacuum, would another torque converter be something to try? By the way, what should vacuum be at idle with my specs?

[TexasStroker]

Glad to see you got the Pro-Flo 4 installed.  Mine is still sitting in a box, but I am close to finishing the truck so I can get back to the cars.

What did you run for the accelerator cable?  If I remember right that was a hold up for me when gathering parts because it was going to be so much longer than stock as it was a RH TB mount.  Lokar was supposedly going to make one, but I'm not sure if it came to fruition...haven't checked in a year or two.  Any chance you've got slack there?  Does the pedal feel seem the same as when you were last driving?

Have you checked any of the plugs?

Hopefully it will be an easy fix.

[metallicareload99]

I would expect more vacuum than what you're seeing. That cam seems pretty mild. The computer is controlling the timing, correct? Were you able to verify the timing with a timing light?

Is the exhaust leak on the side with the O2 sensor?

[Dino]

Glad to see you got the Pro-Flo 4 installed.  Mine is still sitting in a box, but I am close to finishing the truck so I can get back to the cars.

What did you run for the accelerator cable?  If I remember right that was a hold up for me when gathering parts because it was going to be so much longer than stock as it was a RH TB mount.  Lokar was supposedly going to make one, but I'm not sure if it came to fruition...haven't checked in a year or two.  Any chance you've got slack there?  Does the pedal feel seem the same as when you were last driving?

Have you checked any of the plugs?

Hopefully it will be an easy fix.

For the throttle cable I used a long cable intended for hi rise manifolds. Easy install and works well. No slack. It pulls the butterflies as soon as you push the pedal. Pedal feels the same in till I put the kickdown spring on it, then it feels harder. Throttle bracket is on the driver side though so it shouldn't be an issue.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/294869565198?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0&ssspo=kPPcbxlDSP-&sssrc=4429486&ssuid=jzlomRlWSES&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY

Old plugs were black from all testing so I replaced them with a new set just last week.

Hard or easy, I hope there's a fix and I didn't go through all this to have worse performance than what I started with!

I would expect more vacuum than what you're seeing. That cam seems pretty mild. The computer is controlling the timing, correct? Were you able to verify the timing with a timing light?

Is the exhaust leak on the side with the O2 sensor?

I thought it should be more. The cam is only slightly more than stock. I had more vacuum with the old purple cam.
It does control timing, but you still have to tell it what idle timing is, what it is all in, and by what rpm. I did verify it with a timing light.

Yes it's on the same side. Looking back at the video, I wonder if I created an oil leak from revving it so hard and it's dripping on the exhaust manifold.

[metallicareload99]

Yeah, I had a Lunati 10230703 with 226°/234° in my 440 and it made 20"+, but I do have a manual transmission and idle was set @ around 950 RPM

If you have an exhaust leak, I would assume that you would hear it

[Dino]

Yeah I'm thinking this is oil on the exhaust. I won't have time to check it out until Wednesday but will find out. I would think manual or auto would be the same vacuum in neutral. At 950 rpm I don't make anywhere near that vacuum. I just ordered a smoke machine. If there's a vacuum or exhaust leak, I'll find it.

[Dino]

No exhaust leak. It's a bit of oil from the corner of the valve cover.

I tried readjusting the kickdown cable, or throttle pressure as I think it's called, and it made the kickdown a bit more sensitive, with a slightly harsher 2-3, but otherwise still a dud from a standstill. If I shift it into 1st gear, shouldn't it stay there until I move it? Mine shifts into 2nd gear without moving the shifter. IT stays into 2nd until I move the shifter to D.

Some people say that may cam is retarted. It was installed per Crower specs and the whole ordeal is in a sticky here. If the trans turns out fine then I need to dig deeper into the engine itself, but I'm not convinced yet the trans doesn't have an issue. Can I drop the pan and filter and check things or is it more complicated than that?

[Dino]

I think I found the problem...

I thought I had the Crower 32240 cam but Ron convinced me to get the 32243. I just found the order email from Summit. It was from 2015 so I just forgot the details. This changes everything.

Crower recommends a tire and gear that keeps the car at higher rpm, and it needs compression of 9.5:1 to 10.5:1. I'm lucky to get 9.0:1.

The 3.23 gear and 28" tall tire do not help.

Here's the specs:

Crower 32242
INT/EXH - Dur @ .050" Lift: 222°/234° RR: 1.5/1.5 Gross Lift: .486"/.496" LSA: 112° RPM: 1800 to 6000 Redline: 6500

I think the easiest mod right now is to install a higher stall TC. Any recommendations?

I recently picked up a Wilcap adapter for a GM trans to a Mopar BB so that will allow me to stick some better gear in the back and enjoy higher rpm on the street while keeping it highway friendly. That's not something I can pull off in a weekend though.

I don't want to deal with aftermarket heads. Would I benefit from advancing the cam or should a high stall TC do the trick? The cam has 4 degrees ground in so it was installed at 108.

While the trans is out, what else do I need to do besides filter change and checking the bands? What would prevent it from staying in first gear with the shifter in first?

[John_Kunkel]

If I shift it into 1st gear, shouldn't it stay there until I move it? Mine shifts into 2nd gear without moving the shifter. IT stays into 2nd until I move the shifter to D.

Yes, it "should", but there are combinations of governor weights and engine rpm that will override the lever position. At what rpm does it upshift uncommanded?

[Dino]

If I shift it into 1st gear, shouldn't it stay there until I move it? Mine shifts into 2nd gear without moving the shifter. IT stays into 2nd until I move the shifter to D.

Yes, it "should", but there are combinations of governor weights and engine rpm that will override the lever position. At what rpm does it upshift uncommanded?

~2000 at light throttle, up to ~3600 WOT.

[Dino]

I think this one may be worth a try.

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/tci-141200?srsltid=AfmBOophwIo_nrgGX1hNHXVFmHMwhptFCXpQwDSxZiCkh3NtlkWPyqVP

[Dino]

Upon further review, it looks like TCI may not be the most reliable.

I sent a message with all info the SMR. I was considering Turbo Action but nobody has those. Are they still in business? I'll check with a few others.
Heck I'd get the 2801764 if I could find one.

I did the brake stall test again. If I stomp the throttle it reaches 1800 rpm for a split second, but on several tries throughout the day mid 1700s is the average. Floor it or rev it up slowly, it doesn't matter. Result is the same. 4 wheel discs keep the car planted.


Is this the actual 764 TC?

https://www.rockauto.com/en/parts/dacco,764,torque+converter,8668

[metallicareload99]

I'm the last person to be giving advice RE automatic transmissions, but I'd strongly consider a torque converter from one of the specialty suppliers 

The low vacuum readings still seem concerning.....

[Dino]

Vacuum is about 12.5 at idle, 750 rpm. High is about 16 around 12-1300.

I looked up your cam and you have 10 degrees overlap. I only have 4. Maybe it's because I have low compression, or a tall single plane with a 1000 cfm throttle body.

While I wait on advice from the cam companies, I'm going to install a Dacco 764. They're cheap and I'm curious.

I bought a Wilcap adapter to stick a 4L60E or 700R4 behind the engine so I'm not going to go too crazy with the 727. The overdrive will allow me to get better gearing and keep my tall tire.

[b5blue]

Are you going to race? What is your compression? 

[Dino]

Are you going to race? What is your compression? 

No race, but I'd like to get 0-60 quicker than the current 15 seconds! 

Compression should be around 9:1, that's what Ron guesstimated way back when. I have yet to buy a decent cylinder compression tester.

[b5blue]

I WAS going to order a cam from "Mr. Sixpack" but when I called he sent me to Hughes so I got their HP cam. (The standard Mopar HP cam was not available, but now is.)

[John_Kunkel]

I'm going to install a Dacco 764. They're cheap and I'm curious.

The factory 2801764 is basically the same converter that aftermarket companies sell at an inflated price.

[marshallfry01]

Regarding Chevy transmissions, I'd go with a 2004R instead of a 4L60/700r4. Both the L60 and 700r4 have really deep first gear ratios. Too much of a jump from 1st to 2nd gear in my opinion. The 2004R has an even gear ratio split between the first 3 gears and has a sweet 0.67 OD. The .67 OD with a lockup converter would have you turning 2000rpm at 60mph with a 4.10 and a 28 inch tall tire. Just my 

[Dino]

Hmmm the 200R4 ratios do look good. Not that I race the car, but can they stand up to a 440? With a 28" tall tire, I'd probably settle for a  gear in the 3.7 range. Fun in town and good ln long drives.

[Dino]

I took the pan off last night. No metal shavings, a little debris on the filter but nothing crazy. I'm not sure if this would be relevant.
I readjusted the TV cable to 1:1 travel with the throttle cable, and it seems to work fine. I took a short video. Does that bolt need to touch the TV mechanism at the end of its travel? It's not right now.
I will check the band adjustment but need to go out and get a decent inch torque wrench. Thighten to 72 inch pounds and is it 2 turns out for both? I think that's what the book says. Trans will come out today to swap the TC. Is there anything else I need to check or do before it goes back in the car?

https://youtu.be/t-S4zOcDyMc?si=CJgZuOMv_R5WNZxh

[John_Kunkel]

Don't worry about the exact torque on the band adjusters, just hand tight with a short wrench is good and 2 turns out is good. Not a big deal if the cam doesn't hit the stop screw but, if the travel is actually 1:1, it should.

If you're gonna replace the converter, now is a good time to replace the front seal. When installing the seal, pack the garter spring with grease to prevent the spring from popping off when installing.

[Dino]

Never knew they were called garter springs. I'll replace the seal and make the adjustments. Thanks John

[marshallfry01]

Hmmm the 200R4 ratios do look good. Not that I race the car, but can they stand up to a 440? With a 28" tall tire, I'd probably settle for a  gear in the 3.7 range. Fun in town and good ln long drives.

Extreme automatics has them in 3 different stages. You can pick whichever suites your application and/or pocketbook. I think their best unit is rated 1000hp/750tq. They have good reviews too. I'm planning on going with their middle rated unit for my 72 chevelle with a 383 sbc.

[Dino]

Oh gotcha. If I spend that kind of money I'd get a manual though. I may just get a stock 200R4 just for cruising around town in the meantime. The gear ratios do look better than the 700R4.

[John_Kunkel]

I think the wide 1-2 gear spread in the 700R4 isn't the big issue it's made out to be. I've had two of them and, in normal driving, you don't notice it and at WOT 1-2 upshifts there's no noticeable bog if you have a modicum of horsepower. The deep 1st gear allows a lower numeric axle ratio without sacrificing the launch.

Same with the wide-ratio standard transmissions, the only time it's an issue is if your road racing and don't want a big rpm drop when shifting a lot.

[Kern Dog]

The 700R4 and the electronic version 4L60E are decent transmissions.
I had one in my 76 Camaro and my 84 Chevy C-10. Those two had mild engines so the gear spread wasn't an issue.
The manual transmissions with a wide spread like the 833 OD are a different matter.
3.09 to a 1.67 is a huge drop for a manual. I had one in a Duster with a 360 I built with a bit bigger cam. The ratio spread was not good. It felt like shifting from 1st to 3rd.

[Dino]

I installed the 764 torque converter and oh boy what a disappointment. Now it really has trouble moving. The prior TC gave me a brake stall of 1700-1800, this new one only 1300. I don't know how it could be this low, but it's a real dog to drive.

[b5blue]

Man that's not right that spec was 2100-2400 stall. Should have been perfect for your build?

[John_Kunkel]

On the stall speed chart I posted on page 1, the 340-4 and 383-4 are the 764 converter.

[Dino]

That's what I thought. I don't know what's going on.

[b5blue]

It could be a crap rebuild. (Like many A-1 Cardone parts.) 

[Dino]

Yeah I guess so. I'll have to by yet another one. Maybe the cam timing isn't right either. I don't know. Compression is vetween 160 and 170 on all cylinders so that's good.

This black TC is supposedly 2500-2800 stall, but the seller can only dind 3303 stamped on it and I can't find any info on it.

[b5blue]

Good Luck Derk!