200r4 in 69 Charger

[hudak69rt]

Hi first post I have a 69 charger ive had nothing but dumb problems with after leaving the resto shop after half a resto was done. (essentially rolling body turned into full driver car minus body paint work) biggest thing i have hated is the inabilty to drive more than 65 mph and not hear secondaries kicking and engine starting to get loud :/ I have 3.73s with 295s. Ive came across extreme automatics talked to nice guy there a few times and got some good answers. Besides driveshaft and linkages/TV cable and I know cross member. Is this doable as like no tunnel cutting? cant find a b body with one anywhere?? Unlocked 3000 stall ok at long distance 2500 levels??? with big cooler, deep pan, and good perfromance rad? Goin behind a 440

[chargerbr549]

There are several options on OD automatic transmissions depending on what route you want to go on the 66-70 B body platform. The strongest setups would be to run a 4L80E or A518 with adapters but they require a good amount of transmission tunnel mods or another strong setup would be to just run a gear vendors OD unit behind the 727 and you might have to do some slight tunnel modification. If you want a transmission that doesn't require major transmission tunnel modifactions the 700r4 or 4L60E but they are very weak in stock form and require a good amount of money in upgrades to make them live behind a 440. The problem with a 2004R is the tailshaft area is wider than the 700R4/4L60e and would still require some modifications to the torsion bar cross brace for it to work. You can get a Silver Sport transmission setup that pretty much a bolt in which is based on the 4L60E transmission but its pretty spendy. If you go the 4L60E/700R4 route try to avoid the adapters that sandwich between the engine and transmission because they will push the trans further back into the transmission tunnel and you will still have to do some modifications to the torsion bar cross brace for it to work and depending on what brand you get the starter mounting sometimes requires modifications to the block and trans that some people don't want to do. The way I would probably go is to get an Ultrabell that will mate the 700R4/4L60e directly to the 440 and will save you from doing alot of modifications on a bunch of different areas.

part # for the bellhousing is 92456-700
part # for the flywheel 6 bolt 93009-c flywheel adapter 80012
part # for the flywheel 8 bolt 93010-c flywheel adapter 80013

Here is a link to the thread with some pictures  

https://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/2723457/mopar-conversion.html

[birdsandbees]

Be a LOT easier to throw a 3.23/1 pumkin in the rear...

[Mike DC]

Be a LOT easier to throw a 3.23/1 pumkin in the rear...

True.

But it would still be low-geared (by modern standards) even then.  A real cruiser would have 3.23 gears and the overdrive.   

[Todd Wilson]

Is Gear Venders still around?


Todd

[hemi-hampton]

why was only half a resto done? Leon.

[Kern Dog]

Is Gear Venders still around?


Todd

Yes.

[b5blue]

I'm with going for a 323 and a fairly stock 727. Why spend 1,000's hyper modding when what are you REALLY going to do with the car? 

[hudak69rt]

why was only half a resto done? Leon.

Because bringing a rolling body that i still had to replace floor and trunk too cost 10s of thousands LOL between engine build, tranny, posi rear, wheels and tires, wiring ect. You remember how much these cars cost to buy or build i was 22 at the time when i got to start it and somewhat drive it. Im not gonna list the problems ive had and still dealing with. Chargerbr549 thank you i will look into. Why no 3.23s cause thats ass lmao what I want  the car to do is come out of a hole like and animal and still be able to cruise at 80 at 2500 and gear vendors aint gonna do that with 3.73s. Ive seen happy people on other sites with A bodies and  a 200r4. I dont mind cutting out part of torsion crossmember and boxing for a 200r4. Extremes tranny for the whole kit is 5 grand essentially. Silversport is 6 grand and only rated for 650 max and for how i beat on it that aint gonna last! Im listing my tci 727 and converter to eat some of the cost!

[chargerbr549]

Here is an adapter option if you want to go with a 2004R transmission, us an Extreme Automatics 2004R front pump adapter that bolts to a Reid bellhousing and order up a
big block mopar Reid bellhousing. Here are the links if you wanted to do the swap.

Adapter ring
https://extremeautomatics.com/index.php?route=product/category&path=86_103

Bellhousing
https://www.reidracing.biz/bh040

[hudak69rt]

Yea the guy explained i buy that piece of reid and they cut and cnc it the 200r4 i just want to know if its the easiest way to go i messaged the guy from the post you sent me on 4L60E for more pics

[v21hemicharger]

You're money ahead with a Gear Vendor.  By the time you buy trans, adapters you'll have a weaker transmission and have spent more than the $3100 a Gear Vendor costs.  You're gears will end up being like 2.91 vs 2.49 in 200 R4.
https://www.gearvendors.com/d2wd3s.html

[Kern Dog]

That is still a wide spread in final drive ratios. That could be 1.5 mpg or better.
A guy from San Jose had a 200-4R built for a 360 in a 68 Barracuda. He seems happy with it. The final drive is .67, right? I think that might be the tallest OD gear in any 4 speed OD transmission.
Gear Vendors is .78. To me, that is a crappy OD ratio.
I had one. Yeah, it knocked down a 4.10 to approximately a 3.20 and it did help but it wasn't that great.
In contrast, I have a Tremec 5 speed in my car with a .64 5th gear. The OD rpms are literally 36% less than a direct drive 4th gear. That is impressive.
Too bad the ZF 8 speed wasn't so huge and complicated.

[hudak69rt]

Exactly my point still a wide spread and I actually have a friend that said I can have his gear vendors from gm tranny I believe the piece I need to fit the 727 is 700 bucks from them but the piece he's giving me still needs a rebuild of gaskets and seals so I'm still gonna have to spend a bit for that and .78 and .67 are very different. Mike mustos 68 charger has gear vendors a 285-40-18 tire and 3.55s 81 mph at 3,000 still a high rev imo on a big block long term ! 3.55 isn't enough gear I feel especially if I mini tub this car and get the 335 or 345s. And that's the plan right now ordering rms 4 link in a few weeks.

[cdr]

Call John Cope,,, CRT he does a a518 [46rh/re] set up knows what he is doing, I have a a518 in my junker, street strip car, street trim in the picture

[Kern Dog]

The 518 does have a good overdrive ratio. I believe it is .69 to 1.

[Mike DC]

    
 
I'm surprised that nobody has ever produced a custom ratio (taller OD) for the GV unit.  The thing is basically just a single-speed automatic transmission.  The aftermarket makes custom gearsets for lots of other ones.  



If the GV could be ordered with a 0.68 ratio then it would be a whole lot more popular in the classic car/truck world.  It has the existing 0.78 ratio because of unit's main/intended application, which is larger industrial-chassis trucks like motorhomes.    

You would have to give up the "gear-splitting" feature with the taller OD ratio.  But in real-world usage that's not especially useful anyway.  For classic car/truck applications it mainly just gets used as a bolt-on 4th gear.

 

[Kern Dog]

The whole "gear splitting" schmere was a marketing tactic in regards to muscle cars. That feature helps in engines with a low redline and a narrow power band.
Nobody that I ever knew used it for that. The only thing it was good for was an extra gear.
To me, it seems that the engineers at GV just made their product and sat back on the couch and got lazy. YES, they could have spent a few bucks and made it in a taller ratio to broaden their market but they didn't.

[Mike DC]

 
 
The GV engineers never did make it for us.  They make adapters to use an existing auxilitary trans unit in a muscle car. 

But yeah, it seems like the investment would have paid for itself pretty fast if they had tooled up a taller gearset.
 

[hudak69rt]

 
 
The GV engineers never did make it for us.  They make adapters to use an existing auxilitary trans unit in a muscle car. 

But yeah, it seems like the investment would have paid for itself pretty fast if they had tooled up a taller gearset.
 

Exactly!!! Ill look into the a518 what was the total cost for that swap? 4k?

[marshallfry01]

I'd like to put a 2004r behind my 440 in my 69 R/T. It's gonna be a general Lee plus the numbers drive terrain is long gone. Just to compare a GV vs a 2004r with a .67 OD... a GV with 3.55's will turn the same rpm as a 2004r with 4.10's at the same speed.

[moparstuart]

i have a 200 R4 in my Rat Rod out of a Monte Carlo  SS   it had to be super over built as they are a weak trans .  
 I have it behind my built 392 hemi  .  If you can pick a different option I  would they are just not a great trans  .  

[Mike DC]

  

i have a 200 R4 in my Rat Rod out of a Monte Carlo  SS   it had to be super over built as they are a weak trans .  
 I have it behind my built 392 hemi  .  If you can pick a different option I  would they are just not a great trans  .  

Powerglides are not that strong from the factory either.  But they are popular in 2000-hp drag cars today because of what can be done with them.  


It depends what you want from the trans.  A bigger one (727, Turbo 400, etc) is much stronger for less money.  But it's also harder to fit in the chassis, it's heavier, and it soaks up more horsepower.  Pros & cons.  
               

[hudak69rt]

Extremes stage 3 is rated at 1000hp!! my target engine power is 550-575 but with mini tubs im currently debating a built and cut  8 3/4 or Strange 60 prices arent far off this trans and rear will probably be in it when Im in my 70s 50 years from now lmao !!

[68-XS29]

For what its worth, I installed a gear vendors unit behind my 727 in my 68 Charger with 3.23 gears. I went this route for a couple different reasons. One because I had already put a bunch of money into the 727 and knew I already had a great transmission, two because this is mostly a cruiser car and I did not want to swap it to a 5 or 6 speed manual, and three because the gear vendors option seemed to be the easiest, quickest and cheapest way to obtain and overdrive ratio in my car. Yes, the .78 ratio could be a little higher to knock RPMs down a little more, but it is still significantly better now than it was before. I can now run 85 MPH with modern highway traffic without rev-ing the piss out of the 440. With the gear vendors I picked up around 15-20 mph at the same RPM. All in all I am happy with the gear vendors and am glad I went that route, it was the right route for me and my application. I also picked up a 33 percent increase in fuel economy, from 6 mpg to 8  (I have dual 750 double pumpers on top of my 440) Also, I enjoy the gear splitting, with the 3.23 gears the overdrive kicks on by its self right at the very top of 1st gear around 47 mph, and goes into 1st overdrive and the car takes of like a bat out of hell, its a hell of a lot of fun. The only thing I am still toying with is drive line angles to try and get rid of a surging drive line vibration at highway speeds, which you are going to have to do with any transmission swap.

[hudak69rt]

That sounds good but 3.23 just dont seem like enough low end feel in your pants like these 3.73s. Also that set up is probably a liitle longer than factory that im guessing the angle is a little bit more harder for driveshaft?

[Mike DC]

        
IIRC somebody in the aftermarket used to make a lower gearset for the 727.  It was lower 1st & 2nd ratios, like the factory wide-ratio version of the smaller 904 trannys from the smog era.  I dunno if that's still available or not.    

Combine those lower 727 gears with a GV overdrive, and you would have a more decent spread from 1st to 4th.  I think the lowered 1st ratio was a 2.75 instead of the stock 2.45.

[pipeliner]

One of the biggest POS trannys ever built. There is a guy that can get them bullet proof for the G-Body guys but major dollars but Im thinking even those guys are using the 6l80 or maybe it's a 4l80, can't remember. Have one  In a 86 Monte SS and they're just naturally week but it would be a cold day in hell before I put anything GM or Ford in my Charger. Hell I was against putting a T-56 in my Charger until I found out they were first originally built for the Dodge Viper lol

[Back N Black]

What about a Doug Nash 5 speed? is that an option?

[moparstuart]

One of the biggest POS trannys ever built. There is a guy that can get them bullet proof for the G-Body guys but major dollars but Im thinking even those guys are using the 6l80 or maybe it's a 4l80, can't remember. Have one  In a 86 Monte SS and they're just naturally week but it would be a cold day in hell before I put anything GM or Ford in my Charger. Hell I was against putting a T-56 in my Charger until I found out they were first originally built for the Dodge Viper lol

totally agree  mine works ok but i dont abuse it and its over built   I would never use this trans again that for sure  .     

[hudak69rt]

One of the biggest POS trannys ever built. There is a guy that can get them bullet proof for the G-Body guys but major dollars but Im thinking even those guys are using the 6l80 or maybe it's a 4l80, can't remember. Have one  In a 86 Monte SS and they're just naturally week but it would be a cold day in hell before I put anything GM or Ford in my Charger. Hell I was against putting a T-56 in my Charger until I found out they were first originally built for the Dodge Viper lol

totally agree  mine works ok but i dont abuse it and its over built   I would never use this trans again that for sure  .     

You have a 2004r in your car?

[moparstuart]

i have a 200 R4 in my Rat Rod out of a Monte Carlo  SS   it had to be super over built as they are a weak trans .  
 I have it behind my built 392 hemi  .  If you can pick a different option I  would they are just not a great trans  .  

yes  in my 31 nash 

[hudak69rt]

Whats your complaint and whats it built to power wise? Because I just called Cope and he doesnt build them anymore but sells the kit no valve body and no core to build Im at 3500 already and for something that can handle 700 hp so not even goin to look any further at that. If silversport was built to higher hp i would do that but at max 650 hp rating the money does not seem worth it. Seems Extreme best bang for buck but still getting a trusted quality long lasting piece which is what matters to me when you aint rich and young !! Appreciate all the help from everyone's perspective!

[pipeliner]

One of the biggest POS trannys ever built. There is a guy that can get them bullet proof for the G-Body guys but major dollars but Im thinking even those guys are using the 6l80 or maybe it's a 4l80, can't remember. Have one  In a 86 Monte SS and they're just naturally week but it would be a cold day in hell before I put anything GM or Ford in my Charger. Hell I was against putting a T-56 in my Charger until I found out they were first originally built for the Dodge Viper lol

totally agree  mine works ok but i dont abuse it and its over built   I would never use this trans again that for sure  .     

You have a 2004r in your car?

Yes. Just I like I said. I'm my 86 Monte SS. It can't even handle 180 HP! My brother ripped out 2 in his 86 GN and finally had to send it off to get it bullet proofed. My 70 Charger has a close ratio T-56 in it.

[hudak69rt]

Yea im not against a stick but the t56 tranny itself is 6k plus floor work, plus conversion of pedals, trans crossmember ect. Extremes 200 is rated for 1,000 hp and has billet parts inside plus ik it fits with slight crossmember work. They also a lifetime refresh price of like 450 i believe. Just seems like best option to get this to boogie on the highway at 24-2500 and still be a nasty car at through the city behind a hopped up 440

[Mike DC]

General comment:  All the horsepower ratings are less important if it's not being dragstripped.  


Horsepower isn't really the issue even on the track.  It's sudden shock loads that break stuff.  Torque + curb weight + traction.  

You never break a U-joint while driving on ice/snow.  Not unless the rear tires suddenly hit a patch of dry pavement (which is a shock load).  

[hudak69rt]

Yea i get that i told them the setup of the car and he said they felt more comfortable with stage 3 then stage 2 set up. Gonna look it into 5 speed before i place order.

[69Chrgr]

I spent about the last 5 years trying to make the same decision you are. I also contemplated the TH200R4, as my 87 Grand National came with one from the factory and it seems plenty stout. However once the TKX 5-speed became available I pulled the trigger. Almost done with the conversion.

[Mike DC]

I spent about the last 5 years trying to make the same decision you are. I also contemplated the TH200R4, as my 87 Grand National came with one from the factory and it seems plenty stout. However once the TKX 5-speed became available I pulled the trigger. Almost done with the conversion.

Seems like a good choice.

Which gearset did you go with?  

[69Chrgr]

I spent about the last 5 years trying to make the same decision you are. I also contemplated the TH200R4, as my 87 Grand National came with one from the factory and it seems plenty stout. However once the TKX 5-speed became available I pulled the trigger. Almost done with the conversion.

Seems like a good choice.

Which gearset did you go with?  

I believe mine is the higher .68 5th gear ratio.

[Kern Dog]

I got one of the last TKO 600 models late in 2021. Mine has the 2.87 first gear and the .64 5th. At the time, they were rolling out the TKX. I got a nice deal on my kit...$5900 including delivery. These ratios make for a great performing car with excellent gear spacing.

[69Chrgr]

I got one of the last TKO 600 models late in 2021. Mine has the 2.87 first gear and the .64 5th. At the time, they were rolling out the TKX. I got a nice deal on my kit...$5900 including delivery. These ratios make for a great performing car with excellent gear spacing.

Glad to hear that. Today I hope to be able to finally test drive mine. We have had customer commitments to finish on other cars, so I wasn't able to finish up until now. We did a series of YouTube videos on the install, and hope to have the final video done this weekend with a test drive and summary of the installation. We used my car as the pilot like we did on EFI for future customer upgrades. I made a few mistakes like the proper measurement between the clutch fingers and the face of the bell housing, causing failure of the hydraulic slave cylinder on my first go around. Also, if you have headers the starter location has 2 options. Also what Silver Sport sends you regarding the flywheel is for a stock 440, not a stoker with a 6 bolt pattern and larger bolts. Just lots of little things. Overall, I'm super excited to try it out.

[Kern Dog]

Also what Silver Sport sends you regarding the flywheel is for a stock 440, not a stoker with a 6 bolt pattern and larger bolts. Just lots of little things. Overall, I'm super excited to try it out.

The flywheel that I got was no different than other neutral balance flywheels that I have here. I have a 4.15 stroker crank. As far as I have seen, all Mopar LA, B and RB engines use a 6 bolt crank except the Hemi.

[pipeliner]

Yea im not against a stick but the t56 tranny itself is 6k plus floor work, plus conversion of pedals, trans crossmember ect. Extremes 200 is rated for 1,000 hp and has billet parts inside plus ik it fits with slight crossmember work. They also a lifetime refresh price of like 450 i believe. Just seems like best option to get this to boogie on the highway at 24-2500 and still be a nasty car at through the city behind a hopped up 440

I can't remember what level kit my brother went with on his 86 GN but it wasn't cheap. Just a few mods to that Turbo and it started eating Transmissions but it'd be a cold day in hell before I'd put a GM transmission in my cars.  The Mods for the T-56 is simple if you have the tools and have a good welding buddy or can weld yourself it's not the simple. Hey I get it. Some people can't bang gears but I was driving a 3 on the tree by myself on the farm when I could first reach the pedals.

[69Chrgr]

Yea im not against a stick but the t56 tranny itself is 6k plus floor work, plus conversion of pedals, trans crossmember ect. Extremes 200 is rated for 1,000 hp and has billet parts inside plus ik it fits with slight crossmember work. They also a lifetime refresh price of like 450 i believe. Just seems like best option to get this to boogie on the highway at 24-2500 and still be a nasty car at through the city behind a hopped up 440

I can't remember what level kit my brother went with on his 86 GN but it wasn't cheap. Just a few mods to that Turbo and it started eating Transmissions but it'd be a cold day in hell before I'd put a GM transmission in my cars.  The Mods for the T-56 is simple if you have the tools and have a good welding buddy or can weld yourself it's not the simple. Hey I get it. Some people can't bang gears but I was driving a 3 on the tree by myself on the farm when I could first reach the pedals.

Interesting. Then maybe I have a Hemi style crank.

[69Chrgr]

I have to say besides the EFI, this is the best mod I have done to my car. Now I'm finally done with debating with myself on what transmission to choose and I can finally ride with my friends on a long cruise out here in Texas.

https://youtu.be/cGmbFigmO1c

[pipeliner]

I have to say besides the EFI, this is the best mod I have done to my car. Now I'm finally done with debating with myself on what transmission to choose and I can finally ride with my friends on a long cruise out here in Texas.

https://youtu.be/cGmbFigmO1c

Hope you have better luck with the TKX than what some other people have had with them. That's why I hate buying new product.

[69Chrgr]

Yea im not against a stick but the t56 tranny itself is 6k plus floor work, plus conversion of pedals, trans crossmember ect. Extremes 200 is rated for 1,000 hp and has billet parts inside plus ik it fits with slight crossmember work. They also a lifetime refresh price of like 450 i believe. Just seems like best option to get this to boogie on the highway at 24-2500 and still be a nasty car at through the city behind a hopped up 440

I can't remember what level kit my brother went with on his 86 GN but it wasn't cheap. Just a few mods to that Turbo and it started eating Transmissions but it'd be a cold day in hell before I'd put a GM transmission in my cars.  The Mods for the T-56 is simple if you have the tools and have a good welding buddy or can weld yourself it's not the simple. Hey I get it. Some people can't bang gears but I was driving a 3 on the tree by myself on the farm when I could first reach the pedals.

Interesting. Then maybe I have a Hemi style crank.

I'm contemplating the 200R4 swap for my 68 Cuda with the new G3 stroker. I also have an 87 GN with the 200R4 and have seen many many GN's in the 9's with the 200R4. Over on the A body forums a guy had great luck with that swap.

[hudak69rt]

Exactly why Im goin that route and I called for the 5 speed to beef it up to 900 ft lbs rated 8800 so no way the 200 gonna be built with high end pieces and almost half the price no ones gonna know its got a gm tranny plus I can do 80 down the highway with ease and still have nasty low end gear! Pictures to come!