Need to choose an EFI system

[Dino]

All along I planned on installing the Edelbrock Pro Flo 4 35910 system, but lately I have been reading more and more about issues with the kit and lack of support. It may be a small number but it makes me a bit nervous. I doubt that a TBI system is better but if anyone has any insight I'm all ears. It's for a near stock 440 that would be driven rain or shine, hot or cold.

[WHITE AND RED 69]

I think no matter what product you'll always hear bad reviews (not just with EFI but Carburetors and everything else made in todays world). Sadly I think 75% of the negative comments are installer error who wired them up with bubble gum and hopes and dreams, then got pissed when it didn't work out. But with anything there is always a chance to get a bad product so not all of them are on the installer. I had 2 Fitech setups, one ran great for months then I wanted an upgrade to control more so stepped up to a higher end model...That one lasted less than a month. After getting fed up with the company I switched to Holley EFI and it has been great for the last 5 years. I know TBI units aren't true EFI but for me it was a great way to step into the EFI world. When I make the change to multiport I'll be 90% there as my fuel system and wiring is ready for the swap.

I'm personally not a fan of the units with the ECU built in. Too much heat goes into them and if something goes wrong the whole unit malfunctions. But no matter what you go with you are adding a bunch of new areas for possible failure. I just like a system that you can troubleshoot or lets you save a tune so if something fails (except the ECU or fuel pump), you can have a limp mode to get home.  

The thing to watch out for no matter what system you go with is the charging setup. Most add EFI and have a basic alternator, so even though the alternator says its 75 or 90 amps, those ratings are at a higher RPM. At idle its going to be much less and that's where the system runs into issues especially if you run electric fans, ac, or other electronics that kick on at lower RPM's. That voltage drop can cause major headaches. So make sure the alternator can support everything at its lowest idle rating.

I'm surprised to hear Edelbrock has a lack of support for their setups? You'd figure a company that big would have their tech support covered?

[AKcharger]

That's what I have on order, I havent' heard anything bad?

[Mike DC]

I think no matter what product you'll always hear bad reviews (not just with EFI but Carburetors and everything else made in todays world). Sadly I think 75% of the negative comments are installer error who wired them up with bubble gum and hopes and dreams, then got pissed when it didn't work out. But with anything there is always a chance to get a bad product so not all of them are on the installer. I had 2 Fitech setups, one ran great for months then I wanted an upgrade to control more so stepped up to a higher end model...That one lasted less than a month. After getting fed up with the company I switched to Holley EFI and it has been great for the last 5 years. I know TBI units aren't true EFI but for me it was a great way to step into the EFI world. When I make the change to multiport I'll be 90% there as my fuel system and wiring is ready for the swap.

I'm personally not a fan of the units with the ECU built in. Too much heat goes into them and if something goes wrong the whole unit malfunctions. But no matter what you go with you are adding a bunch of new areas for possible failure. I just like a system that you can troubleshoot or lets you save a tune so if something fails (except the ECU or fuel pump), you can have a limp mode to get home.  

The thing to watch out for no matter what system you go with is the charging setup. Most add EFI and have a basic alternator, so even though the alternator says its 75 or 90 amps, those ratings are at a higher RPM. At idle its going to be much less and that's where the system runs into issues especially if you run electric fans, ac, or other electronics that kick on at lower RPM's. That voltage drop can cause major headaches. So make sure the alternator can support everything at its lowest idle rating.

I'm surprised to hear Edelbrock has a lack of support for their setups? You'd figure a company that big would have their tech support covered?

Good advice in there.


A decade ago I would have suggested skipping the TBI step and going right to 8-port.  But the quality control issues that seem to be turning up . . .  that kinda throws a monkey wrench into it.  Now I don't know what I would do if I was converting the EFI.  

IMO you have to grade people's feedback on mileage as much as time.  "5 years without problems" sounds good but it might only be 1400 miles driven.    


These days I don't know any electronic part for classic cars that isn't a crap shoot (quality/reliability).  Not a Mallory box, not a distributor part, not a voltage regulator, nothing.  They seem to be able to make decent electricals like lights & fuel pumps, but it ends there.  Once circuit boards get involved the reliability goes out the window.    
 

[metallicareload99]

My , try and get an MPI EFI setup from the beginning, I know easier said than done. I'm sure you know the Edelbrock is the only actual kit. I've been planning putting a MPI setup together with a Haltech, MegaSquirt, or the/one of higher end Holley systems. But there's a lot of expensive little doodads, and tuning will be a challenge.

That being said, I have 33,000+ miles over the last 5 years on Fitech TBI and it has worked great. Any problems I've had have been 100% self inflicted, as far as I recall. Driving in rain and snow, drag race, Auto-X it's performed well with few issues. The TBI is almost bolt on and go aside from the fuel system and a few sensors. MPI will outperform it in every way and it's "real" fuel injection, but cost and effort is enormous. I guess the question is how much you wanna spend and tinker?

[tmaleck]

I bought the Edelbrock Proflow4 XT for my 440.  I still haven't fired it, but it installed easily and looks good.  They Proflow4 forums are pretty active and they have a couple Edelbrock guys answering questions, etc.

[cdr]

No matter WHAT anyone says about how good their TB efi works I think they are a waist of time & money   ,, I have Holley's HP efi with Hilborn stack injection , it works well, VERY tunable & not that difficult . not saying you need the Hilborn part, BUT the Holley HP also can use the much better NTK o2 sensor    now I am up to 4 cents LOL if you have questions just ask me, also my Charger may look like a race car but it is NOT, street driven, cold AC , overdrive trans, I drive it everywhere & still pull the front wheels @ the track just like I drive it there, NO changes made to the car except letting some air out of the rear tires

[moparstuart]

also heard great stuff about holley

[Derwud]

3 Pro-Flo's installed and no real issues with the System on RB's, small blocks have a Rotor phasing issue that is easily taken care of.

[INTMD8]

I had a pro-flo system on order for over a year.  Reading more of the same as far as support/lack of accessibility to the software I cancelled and ordered everything from Holley.

Went with crank trigger, HP ecu and modified an intake for multi port. Worked out great.

Personally would stay with carb(s) over the throttle body injection systems.

[68 charger freak]

I would think the sniper efi would be the best system for a nearly stock application, also the R&D on the holley i think would be way better due to the popularity of it .I have personally installed a few sniper efi systems and my customers love them. The only thing I recommend is to get the efi tank with the in  tank pump ,it's a way cleaner set up

[Dino]

Definitely getting the EFI tank with internal pump. I always wanted direct injection, or as close as possible, but yeah TBI would probably be fine for me. I'll need to make the call soon. The Sniper will need a single plane intake I'm presuming? I still have the stock '71 dual on mine.

[metallicareload99]

I ran the TBI with a 1/2" open spacer on a dual plane intake. It worked fine for the most part, but sometimes there was an odd hesitation at part throttle acceleration. Never bothered me enough to try and "tune" it out and I don't recall it being all the time

[marshallfry01]

Man I would spend the money on a good carburetor and get it tuned correctly. I keep hearing more and more people having issues with these new TBI EFI units. All brands. Holley, FiTech, Edelbrock, etc. If something on the unit breaks while you're on a road trip, good luck finding parts at a parts store. If you have carburetor issues you can find parts for those at nearly any automotive store. 

[Mike DC]

      
A number of guys are running custom fuel injection setups pieced together out of OEM parts.  They seem happy with them.  

But anybody who builds a DIY system is gonna be familiar enough to troubleshoot it by themselves.  And the OEM hardware probably helps the reliability a lot.    





Part of the reason why EFI conversions became popular is because aftermarket carbs are still stuck in the 1960s.  

Why can't I buy a new Edelbrock AVS with spread-bore barrel sizes, an altitude compensator, and float bowl vents that seal up when the engine is off?  The final generation of OEM carbs was getting this stuff 40 years ago.  These would be minor projects for companies the size of Holley or Edelbrock.    

[375instroke]

What's the problem with TBI?  Is it an inherent flaw, or is it just the way the companies implement it?

[metallicareload99]

What's the problem with TBI?  Is it an inherent flaw, or is it just the way the companies implement it?

The only problem, in my opinion, is it shares the same potential distribution problems that a carb might also have 

[375instroke]

How does TPI fix that?  If there's a difference in air between cylinders with TPI, they're all getting the same amount of fuel, right, and it's all based on an averaged O2 signal from the O2 sensor, so most cylinders are going to be too rich or too lean vs. TBI where a cylinder that may get more or less of an air/fuel mixture compared to another cylinder, but at the same air/fuel ratio.  Also, aren't the injectors open for more time than the intake valve is, so it's firing towards a closed valve a lot of the time?  Then there's batch firing in systems like Megasquirt where all the infectors, or half the infectors, are all opened at the same time regardless of where any of the cylinders are in their combustion cycle.  How much of a difference are we talking about?

[metallicareload99]

That's a good point, depending on the tuning there might not be much difference between sequential vs TBI, to say nothing about batch firing.

The assumption is forcing fuel at the back of each intake valve will give each cylinder an even share of fuel. The reality is probably more complex. Some cylinders will pull better vacuum and some cylinders might flow better intake and exhaust than others, so they'd need more fuel. Nice thing about sequential is you can add fuel to those better cylinders that need it. Instead of tuning for your worst cylinder, you can get the most out of all 8.

One would have to tune using thermocouples or O2 sensors on each cylinder (or maybe by reading spark plugs?). As I understand, an EFI tune should be made when running open loop. So the engine runs fine monitoring only what's coming in and the other inputs, throttle position, temperatures, engine speed, etc. O2 sensors are used to fine tune when running in closed loop and monitoring

[Dino]

I'm sticking to the original plan and I ordered the Pro Flo 4. Here's hoping!

[will]

If you are going with the fi tank, get it from tanks inc. they make them for everyone, might as well cut out the middleman. I won't get started on cpp and their ebAY STORE.

[Dino]

If you are going with the fi tank, get it from tanks inc. they make them for everyone, might as well cut out the middleman. I won't get started on cpp and their ebAY STORE.

Thanks for the tip!   

[Charger_Fan]

3 Pro-Flo's installed and no real issues with the System on RB's, small blocks have a Rotor phasing issue that is easily taken care of.

Damn, that looks pretty freakin' schweet! First time I've seen pics of this setup. Thanks for sharing! 

[Dino]

Is there a way to make the tic toc tach accurate using the pro flo?

[INTMD8]

^ You're still using a distributor so wouldn't it just go to coil negative?

[Dino]

^ You're still using a distributor so wouldn't it just go to coil negative?

Yes the stock tach would go to coil negative, but I was hoping there was a way to upgrade the guts so it runs of the Pro Flo ecu. The tach is not exactly accurate.

[metallicareload99]

I gotta think there's a tach output somewhere on the Pro-Flo? If not I'd think one of the MSD tach adapters would do the job (8910 or 8913)

[INTMD8]

^ You're still using a distributor so wouldn't it just go to coil negative?

Yes the stock tach would go to coil negative, but I was hoping there was a way to upgrade the guts so it runs of the Pro Flo ecu. The tach is not exactly accurate.

I see. I sent mine to Redline gauge works and the modernized the internals.  Uses the tach output from Holley efi.

(I also used an output to dual purpose the hood turn signals into a shift light)

[Dino]

^ You're still using a distributor so wouldn't it just go to coil negative?

Yes the stock tach would go to coil negative, but I was hoping there was a way to upgrade the guts so it runs of the Pro Flo ecu. The tach is not exactly accurate.

I see. I sent mine to Redline gauge works and the modernized the internals.  Uses the tach output from Holley efi.

(I also used an output to dual purpose the hood turn signals into a shift light)

Smart!

I will contact Redline and see what they have. Thanks

[Dino]

Is there a decent tool to add AN flares to my existing fuel lines without removing them? Gast tank and exhaust are out of the way so I have good access.

[b5blue]

https://www.amazon.com/Degree-Flare-Tubing-Standard-Flaring/dp/B01MRA9C3O 

[Dino]

https://www.amazon.com/Degree-Flare-Tubing-Standard-Flaring/dp/B01MRA9C3O 

I never had much luck with these bar flare tools on brake lines but I guess double flare is trickier. I'll give it a shot. Thanks!

[b5blue]

How about compression fitting adapters? If you have stainless I doubt it will flare, too brittle. 

[Dino]

I'm using the stock steel lines. Both 3/8 for feed and return, although they shouldn't be the same size but hopefully it works. I assumed AN fittings would be best but I'm open to suggestions. I need flexible line to go from the stock steel fuel lines to the fittings on the fuel pump which are 1/4 NPT, and from the lines to the Pro-Flo 4 regulator which are -6AN.

[dkn1997]

How about compression fitting adapters? If you have stainless I doubt it will flare, too brittle. 

I believe they make compression to AN adapters

[will]

How about compression fitting adapters? If you have stainless I doubt it will flare, too brittle. 

I believe they make compression to AN adapters

That is correct. I used an LS fuel line setup and the compression to AN adapter is no sweat. Hot Rod Fuel has them.

[Dino]

Perfect! No need to flare then, I like that. Thanks guys!

[b5blue]

We have waited quite a while for this progress! 

[Dino]

 
It is crazy to think I parked this car in 2016 to go back to school. I have since started a new career, got divorced, and moved twice. I was going through the boxes of parts just a few days ago, looking at invoices from 10 years ago. The modern upgrades I installed are now vintage! 
Damn good to be back at it though!

[b5blue]

Good Luck!