Using Old Torsion bars to make a knife?

[timmycharger]

  I got my son a mini forge as he wants to try out making knives.  I have my original 318 torsion bars that I want to cut up and use for the knife.  I know nothing about  steel but these were basically springs so I would thing they would be good enough to forge? I would think being made in the 60s that the quality of the steel would be better than anything now?

[b5blue]

I'd say forge ahead and post pics for us to see! 

[timmycharger]

I'd say forge ahead and post pics for us to see! 

Here is a pic of the forge, nothing special, pretty cheap on amazon but it got lots of good reviews. It will be moved to the end of the garage after I get a stand of some sort.

Since I don't have a chop saw for cutting metal and the sawzall barely scratched it, we ended up using a cutoff wheel which took a long time.  We now have a piece ready for forging hopefully.

[armor64]

I don't know if this will do anything, but my sisters BF has one just like that little forge, and he put 3 bricks in front of it, 1 on its side as a base, 2 vertical to help keep heat in while sandwiching the steel on either side. apparently was a huge help (with the lower brick protecting the workbench) his didn't have a door option (if that one does)

[timmycharger]

I don't know if this will do anything, but my sisters BF has one just like that little forge, and he put 3 bricks in front of it, 1 on its side as a base, 2 vertical to help keep heat in while sandwiching the steel on either side. apparently was a huge help (with the lower brick protecting the workbench) his didn't have a door option (if that one does)

Thank you for the info! 

[b5blue]

COOL... no HOT! 

[Todd Wilson]

Go find some railroad spikes and try them out first. Get used to the forge and the hammer with them...............


Todd

[timmycharger]

Go find some railroad spikes and try them out first. Get used to the forge and the hammer with them...............


Todd

I have other pieces of metal (smaller) that we will start with to get used to the forge 

[b5blue]

Well any updates? 

[timmycharger]

Well any updates?  

It was an epic fail! lol

No matter how long we left the piece in the forge, it never got hot enough to be able to re shape it. I think that steel is just too thick for that little forge. We then ran out of time to try the smaller pieces of metal I had.  

The hammer he had was a 3.3lb one and it was a bit too heavy for him. I got him a 2lb hammer and this weekend we are going to try again with some other metal we have that should work better hopefully.  

Using bricks was mentioned above, we put one on the back of the forge to keep the heat in and I think it helped.

I'm sure an experienced smith would have been able to make that torsion bar work, we are going to still try it again once he gets more experience.  Thanks for the interest!!

[b5blue]

I hear ya, pretty darn HOT!!

[DownZero]

Not to criticize but in that last pic I see 2 issues. 1) that billet is not hot enough to work, 2) the anvil sitting on a wood stool. There will be so much  flex in that thing when you strike it that he is loosing a lot of force working the metal. I do give him a big thumbs up for pursuing this. Trial and error, that's how you become proficient.

[dual fours]

Yep, lose that stool and find a free tree stump (call your local Tree removal co.'s) and find out where they are working. Make two straps to wrap around the bottom ends of the anvil and spike the straps to the side of the stump. If a leg of that stool give way, somebody may have a sore foot.
Is there any chance you can open the orifice to get more gas flow, you just do not want to over fire the box. I am sure the instructions show or you know how to adjust gas/air mixture. Maybe open it for more air flow (would that be the air adjustment on the top with that wingnut and plate?)  
It's nice to see your son working an Old Trade.

Look around at yard sale for old flat mill files, the kind that are rusty and not sharp any more, that the seller should pay you to take them away. Good metal there.

EDIT: I see the anvil has cut outs at the base for 4 bolts, use the largest washers and longest lag bolts that fit and fasten it to the stump.  

[timmycharger]

Not to criticize but in that last pic I see 2 issues. 1) that billet is not hot enough to work, 2) the anvil sitting on a wood stool. There will be so much  flex in that thing when you strike it that he is loosing a lot of force working the metal. I do give him a big thumbs up for pursuing this. Trial and error, that's how you become proficient.

Yes agree completely, no matter how long it was left in the forge it did not get hot enough to work with as I noted above so we will be moving on to other metal stock we have.

Yes absolutely agree on the anvil, right after that pic was taken, I put it on the garage floor which is still not ideal as it is way down low. I am working on getting a proper steel stand for it to avoid the issues you mention. 

Yep, lose that stool and find a free tree stump (call your local Tree removal co.'s) and find out where they are working. Make two straps to wrap around the bottom ends of the anvil and spike the straps to the side of the stump. If a leg of that stool give way, somebody may have a sore foot.
Is there any chance you can open the orifice to get more gas flow, you just do not want to over fire the box. I am sure the instructions show or you know how to adjust gas/air mixture. Maybe open it for more air flow (would that be the air adjustment on the top with that wingnut and plate?) 
It's nice to see your son working an Old Trade.

Look around at yard sale for old flat mill files, the kind that are rusty and not sharp any more, that the seller should pay you to take them away. Good metal there.

EDIT: I see the anvil has cut outs at the base for 4 bolts, use the largest washers and longest lag bolts that fit and fasten it to the stump. 

Thank you great suggestions, going to try to get a metal stand first for the anvil and bolt it down to that, they make some nice combination ones for the forge and anvil to be right next to each other.   I have a cache of metal scrap in the shop, I just thought it would be cool to make one out of my original Charger's torsion bar, maybe in the future.

Regarding the wingnut and plate adjustment, I tuned that along with adjusting the gas flow until I got what I thought was the hottest flame per my probe and its actually pretty user friendly in that regard, just a bit scary to anyone watching lol.

I am very glad he has interest in this hobby and it is a great way for us to spend some time together. 

[70 sublime]

In the past we have played around with an old forge we have
We were melting lead car wheel weights and pouring them into moulds

Anyways watching the tv show forged in fire I noticed when they have a big piece of metal or something hard to heat they pile bricks in front of the big opening on the end to help keep the heat in the box
Have you tried covering the opening ?

[timmycharger]

In the past we have played around with an old forge we have
We were melting lead car wheel weights and pouring them into moulds

Anyways watching the tv show forged in fire I noticed when they have a big piece of metal or something hard to heat they pile bricks in front of the big opening on the end to help keep the heat in the box
Have you tried covering the opening ?

The rear of the forge is covered with a brick, I am going to try that on the front as well if we are still having issues getting enough heat in there. 

[Dans 68]

Being a high-carbon steel it should make a great knife. Get the temperature up.   

Dan

[dual fours]

Any chance putting a metal conduit in the air inlet (remove the plate/wing nut) and a slow electric blower (think hair dryer) on the far end of the conduit maybe four feet away to increase the air flow then adjust fuel accordingly. Try not to let the 'work' touch/lay on the inside of the chamber, this may take heat out of the 'work'. Of course I am not there so I can only make "let's try this'' suggestions.

As with the 'work' laying on the bottom of the chamber, lay from side wall to side wall two 1/4'' round bar stock (think Re-Bar), one at the front and one at the rear. this will keep the 'work' off the chamber bottom. I do see you have an outside adjustable stand and bar to help hold the 'work', that should help keep all but the farthest end in of the 'work' off the chamber bottom also.
I have an old Buffalo forge (maybe circa 1889). When I fire it up (coal) I need to work it for more then half a day to be worth while. 

[timmycharger]

Being a high-carbon steel it should make a great knife. Get the temperature up.   

Dan

That is what I was thinking too.  Yup working on it!!

Any chance putting a metal conduit in the air inlet (remove the plate/wing nut) and a slow electric blower (think hair dryer) on the far end of the conduit maybe four feet away to increase the air flow then adjust fuel accordingly. Try not to let the 'work' touch/lay on the inside of the chamber, this may take heat out of the 'work'. Of course I am not there so I can only make "let's try this'' suggestions.

As with the 'work' laying on the bottom of the chamber, lay from side wall to side wall two 1/4'' round bar stock (think Re-Bar), one at the front and one at the rear. this will keep the 'work' off the chamber bottom. I do see you have an outside adjustable stand and bar to help hold the 'work', that should help keep all but the farthest end in of the 'work' off the chamber bottom also.
I have an old Buffalo forge (maybe circa 1889). When I fire it up (coal) I need to work it for more then half a day to be worth while. 

I would rather not mess around with the inlet plate/wing nut for now, I just got him this forge a few months ago lol. In regard to the work being off of the chamber bottom, that is a great point as the brick it sits on could like you said, take some heat out of the work.  I am going to work in that stand and try not to let it touch the bottom if possible, great suggestion, thank you. 

I watched them use coal forges on that Forged in Fire show, if it is like what I am thinking, that is very cool indeed.

[Todd Wilson]

I was at a threshing show today and the local high school kid was there with his setup making railroad spike knives and other things. His forge was similiar to yours but on the front had angle iron on the top and bottom that allowed him to slide 2 pieces of thin fire brick open and closed for a door. I suspect you are losing a lot of heat out the front and will never get anything hot enough. The bigger the piece the more heat it will need to get to working temps. Anvil base needs to be more solid then you got as others have said. They say an old piece of tree trunk it the best. You actually need some bounce back from the anvil to the hammer and a good base does this! You also may find your new anvil isnt really good quality either and may desire to find an old time anvil thats in good shape.

In the end you will still need to heat treat the knife or it will be too soft and not hold a blade. Its been a long time since I was in machine and welding class but I think steel if heated to a certain temp and allowed to cool slow will soften up and if heated up and cooled quickly will harden. You may need to soften up the torsion bar and reheat and try again. Black smithing is very cool and takes a lot of work and skill! Its a dying craft/skill! Keep practicing and reading up and you will find your way!!!




Todd

[timmycharger]

I was at a threshing show today and the local high school kid was there with his setup making railroad spike knives and other things. His forge was similiar to yours but on the front had angle iron on the top and bottom that allowed him to slide 2 pieces of thin fire brick open and closed for a door. I suspect you are losing a lot of heat out the front and will never get anything hot enough. The bigger the piece the more heat it will need to get to working temps. Anvil base needs to be more solid then you got as others have said. They say an old piece of tree trunk it the best. You actually need some bounce back from the anvil to the hammer and a good base does this! You also may find your new anvil isnt really good quality either and may desire to find an old time anvil thats in good shape.

In the end you will still need to heat treat the knife or it will be too soft and not hold a blade. Its been a long time since I was in machine and welding class but I think steel if heated to a certain temp and allowed to cool slow will soften up and if heated up and cooled quickly will harden. You may need to soften up the torsion bar and reheat and try again. Black smithing is very cool and takes a lot of work and skill! Its a dying craft/skill! Keep practicing and reading up and you will find your way!!!




Todd

Very cool, thank you for sharing! I definitely see an opportunity to keep more of the heat in and we ended up using more bricks in strategic placements which definitely helped us keep the work hot and workable. 

STill working on an anvil stand and a better anvil for him since that was mine for basic metal work. I have a friend who's father was an amateur smith making iron railings back in the 70s and he offered one of his dads old anvils, just got to make the trip and grab it.

[timmycharger]

Update from this past weekend.  We found some metal rod stock that was relatively heavy. We cut off a piece and MIG welded it together to make the piece a bit wider.   This time I used more bricks to close in the chamber and messed around with the air and gas until I got it as hot as I could.  We used the stand to make sure the work sort of floated in the middle and did not touch the bottom of the forge.

The result was a piece that he could work with, flattening it until it was about 1/8 thick all around. The pic makes it look more warped than it is, it is relatively straight.

Next step will be the grinding/shaping and finally heat treating for the last step.  

This is our second attempt and learning as we go. More practice, better anvil placement and time will get him better at this but he is very excited even if the first knife will be not great when done but that is not the point right now.

[dual fours]

I was at a threshing show today and the local high school kid was there with his setup making railroad spike knives and other things. His forge was similiar to yours but on the front had angle iron on the top and bottom that allowed him to slide 2 pieces of thin fire brick open and closed for a door. I suspect you are losing a lot of heat out the front and will never get anything hot enough. The bigger the piece the more heat it will need to get to working temps. Anvil base needs to be more solid then you got as others have said. They say an old piece of tree trunk it the best. You actually need some bounce back from the anvil to the hammer and a good base does this! You also may find your new anvil isnt really good quality either and may desire to find an old time anvil thats in good shape.

In the end you will still need to heat treat the knife or it will be too soft and not hold a blade. Its been a long time since I was in machine and welding class but I think steel if heated to a certain temp and allowed to cool slow will soften up and if heated up and cooled quickly will harden. You may need to soften up the torsion bar and reheat and try again. Black smithing is very cool and takes a lot of work and skill! Its a dying craft/skill! Keep practicing and reading up and you will find your way!!!




Todd

Very cool, thank you for sharing! I definitely see an opportunity to keep more of the heat in and we ended up using more bricks in strategic placements which definitely helped us keep the work hot and workable.  

STill working on an anvil stand and a better anvil for him since that was mine for basic metal work. I have a friend who's father was an amateur smith making iron railings back in the 70s and he offered one of his dads old anvils, just got to make the trip and grab it.

GO GRAB THAT ANVIL NOW, and find out if any tree trunks (24'' to 28'' M or L tall should be a good height and 16'' to 18'' M or L in diameter) are available.
Pounding on that Anvil on the cement garage floor may have small cracks show up in the cement down the road.

Some use oil, some use water to quench the hot work.

[67tbird]

After the anvil/stand I'd get him a set of spatz if he's like me and only wears tennis shoes, keeps him from doing the "slag dance" 

[timmycharger]

still working away at his first knife attempt, have not done much except shape it down to size. Soon we will be quenching it and working on the handle. 

We were finally able to grab the old anvils from my friend's garage. These had to be the heaviest things I have lifted/carried in a long time. Good think my son is strong lol!  He is going to use the "smaller" of the 2, we will give it a quick clean up before using it on the next knife.