Increasing Rear tire clearance in a 68-70 Charger

[Kern Dog]

I never looked at the 66-67 B body cars but I guess they might have the same problem.
My red '70 has had tire clearance problems at the rear since I first mounted these wheels and tires. When I ordered them, I looked at a stock wheel and saw how much wider that I could go. I didn't notice that stupid ridge in the outer wheel tub.

[Kern Dog]

In my red car, I have an 18 x 10 wheel, 4 3/4" BS and a 295-45-18 tire that is listed to be 28.46 tall.
It rubs that bulge in the outer wheel house when hitting bumps if I have a passenger or am alone and driving with a full tank.
In my "Jigsaw" Charger, I modified both sides by cutting along that ridge line as well as making perpendicular cuts in a manner than resembles football stitching, then pushing the flaps in to make it concaved.

[Kern Dog]

The final product resulted in a big improvement.

[Kern Dog]

For "Ginger" the red car, I want to make it so the outer tub closer follows the quarter panel outline. This means that I want to make the outer side of the outer tub to go almost vertical instead of an arch like the inner tub does. To get there, I cut round shaped wheel tubs from a Ford truck bed awhile back.
There is one concern about using them. I did the Jigsaw Charger by welding. With rough paint and dents, I didn't care if a weld heated up the quarter panel. On Ginger, I can't risk damaging the paint.

[Kern Dog]

For this car, I'm going to use a panel bonding adhesive.  I have to scrape the undercoating to get a clean surface.
I think that I will cut the ridge line like I did with Jigsaw and make the perpendicular cuts. Then I'll take the Ford tubs and do whatever cutting, shaping and welding that I have to do to make them fit. I'll probably position them using screws, then apply the adhesive.
I hope to get going on this within a couple of weeks.
I'd be interested in hearing from others that have done this whether they did it with the quarter panels off or like mine with everything all together.

[mopar4don]

 Interested 

[Kern Dog]

I wanted to post a thread at the 1970 Charger Registry about this project but the site owner banned me for mentioning in a post that I didn't believe in the need for the  vaccine.  
It sucks to be "cancelled" for expressing your opinions.

[Kern Dog]

The weather was nice this weekend so I was out in the shop. You can see that the tires are set out pretty wide so they need some room.

[Kern Dog]

In the first of the pictures you can see the shiny spots where the tires were making contact.


I had to scrape the sound deadener to get to clean metal. I've read several threads on undercoating and sound deadener removal and the air powered needle scaler seemed to be a popular tool for the job.

[Kern Dog]

Wait...what is that? F8 green??

[Kern Dog]

I sometimes forget that the car was green originally. This reminds me of going out with a blonde and later in the night, you see that she is actually a brunette !

After scraping off the undercoating/sound deadener, I sanded the painted surfaces with the D/A sander and 40 grit discs.

[Kern Dog]

In my Jigsaw Charger, I cut along that protruding ridge, made opposing cuts and inverted that ridge. This time, I wanted more clearance than that method allowed. Still, I followed the same procedure and pushed all the flaps to where I wanted them. It turned out that the gaps between the flaps were too big so I just cut all the flaps out to make a hole....

[Kern Dog]

I took one of the Ford truck wheel tubs I cut from a truck at a self service yard and started trial fitting it. It took several fittings and cuts to get it to fit. The added clearance it will have is amazing.

[Kern Dog]

I used self tapping screws to hold the panel in place, then moved over to the left side. This side is going a LOT faster since I did not bother trying to make the small cuts and bends. I just went ahead and made the hole for the patch.

[Kern Dog]

At first I decided to use a panel bonding adhesive to attach the patch because I was worried about burning the paint when welding along the wheel opening. With the way that I was able to bend the flanges, the welds will be at least an inch from the quarter panels so I could still go either way.

[WHITE AND RED 69]

Nicely done! 

I'm going to do something similar one of these days. Many times I've just wanted to heat it up and hammer it back just to get a little extra clearance but cutting it out and reshaping it is the way to go.

[Kern Dog]

I know a guy that had a '68 GTX. He used a torch and just heated the tub until it was soft enough to move when he hit it with a hammer. His was a drag car but me? I would never try such butchery on a car that was painted. The heat of the torch will travel from the wheel tub to any metal near it. Body filler, no matter how thin, may not like the heat and who knows for sure what happens after that.

[TTSaleen]

Nice job!

[Kern Dog]

Thank you, guys.

The patch panel had to be "pie-cut" in order to get it to bend to the shape that I needed. When you need a inside curve, the flaps lay over each other. An outside curve results in gaps between the sections, like this:

[Kern Dog]

I pulled the panels off to weld up the gaps. It was much easier than leaving them in place and welding overhead.

I'll weld up the left side and dress all the welds with a grinder....then "glue" them in place.

[TTSaleen]

Damn impressive work.
You should make some templates and market this.  I'd be the first in line to buy a set!   

[mopar4don]

Your doing a great job Kern. That has to be scary welding in there with that beautiful paint....

I know it's a little late for you but these might help the next guy.

I saw US Car Tool has these now

https://store.uscartool.com/66-70-Mopar-B-Body-Growth-Ring-Outer-Wheelhouse-Flare-Kit-Dodge-ONLY_p_253.html

[WHITE AND RED 69]

Your doing a great job Kern. That has to be scary welding in there with that beautiful paint....

I know it's a little late for you but these might help the next guy.

I saw US Car Tool has these now

https://store.uscartool.com/66-70-Mopar-B-Body-Growth-Ring-Outer-Wheelhouse-Flare-Kit-Dodge-ONLY_p_253.html

Dang. I might have to look into this...wonder if a 315 tire will fit with the stock leaf spring locations?

[Kern Dog]

Thank you Don.
I actually did what the US Cartool patch offers in my "Jigsaw" Charger by inverting the ridge.
The patches I made for this car allow even more room as shown in the picture below. The US Cartool patch does not follow the wheel opening straight up like mine will.
Theirs tapers down from the middle to the wheel opening.
I have a 295-45-18 on a 10 inch wheel. I have about an inch to the leaf springs and inner tub and about 1 1/4" to the wheel opening molding. It would be tight but an 11" wide wheel and a 315 should fit though.

[Kern Dog]

I decided to weld instead of using the panel bond stuff.
The initial reasoning was my concerns about putting too much heat near the quarter panel. I got around that by doing short bursts and blowing compressed air afterwards. I'm having trouble with the welds though. They look terrible. I have a MIG with a 75/25 Argon-CO2 and am using .030 wire. The wheel tub sheet metal is thinner than the Charger wheel tub. I either get tall welds or I burn through. I've tried numerous wire speeds and can't seem to get consistent welds. I'm lucky this job will be covered in seam sealer and undercoating but crap...I wanted it to look better than this. I'm going to try some thinner wire, something like an .023 or similar.

[cdr]

I decided to weld instead of using the panel bond stuff.
The initial reasoning was my concerns about putting too much heat near the quarter panel. I got around that by doing short bursts and blowing compressed air afterwards. I'm having trouble with the welds though. They look terrible. I have a MIG with a 75/25 Argon-CO2 and am using .030 wire. The wheel tub sheet metal is thinner than the Charger wheel tub. I either get tall welds or I burn through. I've tried numerous wire speeds and can't seem to get consistent welds. I'm lucky this job will be covered in seam sealer and undercoating but crap...I wanted it to look better than this. I'm going to try some thinner wire, something like an .023 or similar.

I agree on welding, that inner well keeps the car tied together!!!

[timmycharger]

I decided to weld instead of using the panel bond stuff.
The initial reasoning was my concerns about putting too much heat near the quarter panel. I got around that by doing short bursts and blowing compressed air afterwards. I'm having trouble with the welds though. They look terrible. I have a MIG with a 75/25 Argon-CO2 and am using .030 wire. The wheel tub sheet metal is thinner than the Charger wheel tub. I either get tall welds or I burn through. I've tried numerous wire speeds and can't seem to get consistent welds. I'm lucky this job will be covered in seam sealer and undercoating but crap...I wanted it to look better than this. I'm going to try some thinner wire, something like an .023 or similar.

I had similar issues welding panels on my Charger and settled on .023 wire after trial and error. I am assuming the area you are welding is nice and clean?

[Mike DC]

      
--  Another vote for smaller wire size.  Use .023 for body sheetmetal.  The larger MIG wires bring more amps to the weld, but it's less controllable.  If your MIG machine can supply enough amps to get it done with a smaller wire than that is preferable.  


--  Don't run the shielding gas pressure too high.  The stuff is only there to prevent bubbles/pinholes in the welds.  Once the gas pressure is high enough to do that, you won't gain anything by blowing it harder.  It just wastes the gas and takes heat away from the welds.    


--  Letting the metal cool off gradually is better than using compressed air to blow it cool.  Less brittle & warping issues.  Just keep the welds short & spaced apart and take your time on the whole job.

[Kern Dog]

I had similar issues welding panels on my Charger and settled on .023 wire after trial and error. I am assuming the area you are welding is nice and clean?

My local welding supply had .025 so I got that. I've heard of .023. .024 but not .025.
What a difference! The welds are less peaky and I have barely burned though. I'm "spot" welding as usual in the areas close to the wheel opening. By "spot" I mean just a quick buzz that looks like a head of a nail. Along the top and sides I do about 1/2" stitch at a time.

[Kern Dog]

     
--  Another vote for smaller wire size.  Use .023 for body sheetmetal.  The larger MIG wires bring more amps to the weld, but it's less controllable.  If your MIG machine can supply enough amps to get it done with a smaller wire than that is preferable.  


--  Don't run the shielding gas pressure too high.  The stuff is only there to prevent bubbles/pinholes in the welds.  Once the gas pressure is high enough to do that, you won't gain anything by blowing it harder.  It just wastes the gas and takes heat away from the welds.    


--  Letting the metal cool off gradually is better than using compressed air to blow it cool.  Less brittle & warping issues.  Just keep the welds short & spaced apart and take your time on the whole job.

Thanks, Mike.
I did back down the gas pressure from 18 to 13. The welds look much better but still not excellent. I sanded and wire wheeled the patch and existing wheel tub but they are not surgically clean. I sure can tell when I hit a dirty spot. Spatter and crackle instead of a nice sizzle.

[INTMD8]

Changing wire probably won't help.

IMO, first thing to make this easier is tight panel to panel fitment.  If there is a gap between sheetmetal and you aren't used to working with things like that, it can get messy quickly.

Not sure -how- you're trying to weld it but my unsolicited advice would be, certainly don't go in with the mindset that you're going to hold down the trigger for several seconds as you lay down a length of bead. 

When you're doing something very heat sensitive (so, sheetmetal that might not fit up tight)  just do a series of spot welds. As in, pull trigger and release to bridge gap. As it goes from glowing red to fading, do it again shifted in the direction you want to go but half overlapping the last spot weld, then do that a million times till you get where you need to be.

Last bit of opinion would be, do it in silicon bronze instead of whatever you're using.

[Kern Dog]

Changing the wire did help some. The welds were flatter and I rarely burned through. The quality is still crap compared to having the work in front of or under me. I still did short bursts to avoid burning.
Weld, grind...weld, grind.
I spread seam sealer over the perimeter and welded seams then today I sprayed the sound deadener/undercoating.
Total cost? Less than $130.
Wheelwell patches cut from a Ford truck in a junkyard: Maybe $40.
Welding wire and tips: $40.
Seam sealer and undercoating: Maybe $50?

The tire clearance improvement is great. I went out for a drive on a bumpy road that always resulted in tire contact. ZERO rubbing today even with 3/4 tank.
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It took me FIVE efforts to post this. I keep getting that stupid  error in regards to posting pictures. The operating system here is terrible.

[69rtse4spd]

Nice job.  .

[Kern Dog]

I have no intentions of making excuses about my welding ability. I would love to learn how to improve.

[Kern Dog]

I do much better welding with the work below me. Overhead welds that look good is still outside of my ability. My welds on the frame connectors and torque boxes was much better. Thicker metal there though.
I can't blame it on anything but myself. I need to meet up with someone that has the skills so I can learn what I am doing wrong.

I can state that this did greatly improve the clearance. These wheels and tires didn't rub until I lowered the car many years ago. I like the wheels & tires and I like the stance. I could have ran an 8 or 9 inch wheel and never had any rub but the goal for me was to have the tires out to the furthest edge of the body that I could.
Thanks to all that commented, even the critics!  

My issue with the pictures is....
The forum software wigs out when you try to post any picture twice UNLESS you rename it. It recognizes a file name from before and won't let you REpost it. You have to change the name to post the picture again.
THIS is the only forum that has this strange condition.
I have thousands of pictures on this computer and my backup hard drive. In the interest of grouping pictures in clusters where the pictures tell a story, sometimes the name or number of the file is accidently duplicated. The computer doesn't care because the "duplicate" titles are stored in different folders.
Lets say I post a picture of my car titled "Charger 1". Months later I want to post the picture again....to do so, I have to rename it. I have my pictures categorized and numbered in order. Sometimes to comply with the program here, I have numerous REnamed pictures that are now out of order. Sometimes I forget and name a picture with a title that I used some time ago....then this site sends an error message that I already posted that picture when I actually didn't, I posted a different picture with a title that I forgot that I used years ago.
I'm not a computer expert so I get frustrated when I encounter these glitches.
I am thankful that the forum exists.

[rockitier350]

Here is a picture of the and rear inner widening wheelhouse. Putting the Uscar outer wheelhouses expanding piece on next.