Just curious, what would it take to make an old Charger run on ethanol?

[WH23G3G]

If it ever gets that bad how drastic would it be to convert an old Mopar big block to handle both ethanol and gasoline? Would it require drastic changes to the engine that would sacrifice original appearance? Would the old carbs work. What exactly does it require to be changed? I know it takes hotter ignition. What about the heads and valves? Just wondering if it ever gets so bad that gas supplies are shortened that the old Mopars will never run again.

[The Ghoul]

I would guess hotter burning plugs and a carb tweek.

[Rolling_Thunder]

ethanol isnt a logical alternative...     ethanol prices have shot up over $1 n the last 2-3 months and there isnt enough available...     plus ethanol burns at twice the rate of good old gasoline...     yes...    half the price but you have to buy twice as much

[Goldfinger71]

Hey WH',
You must have watched the Today show this morning.

[The Ghoul]

ethanol isnt a logical alternative...     ethanol prices have shot up over $1 n the last 2-3 months and there isnt enough available...     plus ethanol burns at twice the rate of good old gasoline...     yes...    half the price but you have to buy twice as much

But corn production could easily be increased, and corn production will strengthen the hart land economy.
It is way more logical than mandating all cars be hybrid by year X, and the conversion process is allot easier than natural gases.
Its the most logical alternative from the stand point that its the easiest to implement and the corn production can easily be bumped up to meet demand.

[Rolling_Thunder]

ethanol isnt a logical alternative...     ethanol prices have shot up over $1 n the last 2-3 months and there isnt enough available...     plus ethanol burns at twice the rate of good old gasoline...     yes...    half the price but you have to buy twice as much

But corn production could easily be increased, and corn production will strengthen the hart land economy.
It is way more logical than mandating all cars be hybrid by year X, and the conversion process is allot easier than natural gases.
Its the most logical alternative from the stand point that its the easiest to implement and the corn production can easily be bumped up to meet demand.

yeah - then the price of corn will be on the rise, in turn the ethanol price will rise to about what gasoline is now

[Todd Wilson]

I posted a message about this a while back and no one responded with much.   I have been doing some research on things. Ethanol production is going up and will continue. There are plants being built all over and railroads are stepping forward to move the grains it takes to produce.

Right now we have ethanol blend. In Kansas its 10% ethanol mixed with gasoline. All stations have it everywhere I have been too. Eventually ALL gasoline will have it.

There is also E85 fuel. In Kansas here theres maybe one  E85 pump in the entire town. In fact I am about 45 miles from an E85 pump.  Do not confuse  E85 fuel with gasoline that has 10% ethanol. You cannot run E85 fuel in a car that is not designed to run E85.   You can run 10% ethanol blend gasoline in all vehicles with mixed results. So far what I have discovered using the 10% ethanol blend gasoline in 6 different vehicles............

1 440 engine -  Knocks and pings and has no power and pitches a serious fit. Backing the timing down didnt seem to help.

1 318 engine (stock)   will run on it with no noticable difference in power. If the engine isnt started for more then a week the carb drys out and you have to dump a little gas down the carb to start it.

1 318 engine (not stock) that will not run on it good. Has a bad hesitation and some pinging. Seems down on power a little bit.

1 360 engine in a 95 Dodge Ram. With original computer it would ping under hard acceleration or working hard pulling a trailer. Computer was replaced a few years ago and it will run fine now on the 10% ethanol blend.

2.0 4 cyl engine in a 86 Honda Prelude runs fine on it.


MPG was down some on all engines. The 95 Ram and 86 Honda get driven a lot so I have seen a drop in mileage there. I gave up using 10% in the 440 and the non stock 318.  The stock 318 will get 10% depending on where I am at.


What 10% will do is clean out your fuel system in a hurry. You could see plugged filters and carb bowls with stuff in it.


E85

E85 is 85% ethanol and 15% gasoline.   Only certain cars can run on this.  In fact very few cars out there can run on it.

E85 has a very high octane rating. 100+  but its energy output is less then gasoline. Since its 85% ethanol (alcohol) it will dry out gaskets and stuff in an old engine. I suppose you could build an engine and set it up for alcohol (methanol race engine)  and be ok in that department but I really dont know if you could ever tune an old big block to run on E85 and put out the power they put out now on regualr gasoline. You would have to have a clean or maybe even new fuel system to go to E85.


I am curious what others have read or found about stuff.   I think technology will continue to improve its use in NEW cars and engines  but I really wonder if an old engine could be set up to run E85 and put out good power.


Todd

[Todd Wilson]

But corn production could easily be increased, and corn production will strengthen the hart land economy.
It is way more logical than mandating all cars be hybrid by year X, and the conversion process is allot easier than natural gases.
Its the most logical alternative from the stand point that its the easiest to implement and the corn production can easily be bumped up to meet demand.

Its not a problem with the amount of corn out there. There simply isnt enough ethanol plants yet. There are several plants being built right now. Its a fairly good process. After they make the ethanol the by products of that can be used in feed for farm animals. Theres really not much wasted after the process is all done.

What has happened is the government is requiring ALL gasoline have ethanol in it by a certain  time period (still several years away). They are giving a 10cent a gallon kick back for each gallon of ethanol blend gas sold. Thats why stations and stuff are really pushing 10% ethanol blend gas now.  This is also why ethanol has went up in price also. The standard oil company supply and demand deal to jack up the price. Refineries also are not equipped to add ethanol to ALL gasonline so that creates a bottleneck as well driving up the prices more.

Everyone kept crying about how we need to cut our dependance on foriegn oil. Well here you go boys and girls this is it and the government has stepped in to force ethanol on us!


Todd

[The Ghoul]

Everyone kept crying about how we need to cut our dependance on foriegn oil. Well here you go boys and girls this is it and the government has stepped in to force ethanol on us!


Todd

No issues here with that!
Here in Michigan we are seeing so many jobs leaving the state and even the country, so its nice there is a plan to create some jobs!
There is big money in our hobby and particularly in mopar. I have no worries that some one will come up with decent kits to make it happen. It may take a while to get back to the power level we are used to but I have no doubt it will happen. 

[Todd Wilson]

Here's some more info I clipped from my work web site. More info on ethanol.


Todd


Ethanol Plants Produce More than Just Fuel
Not only is the growing number of ethanol plants on Union Pacific's system leading to increased shipments of ethanol, but also dried distillers grains (DDGs).

A co-product of ethanol production, DDGs are used primarily as a feed ingredient for dairy and beef cattle. Existing feeds such as corn, soybean meal and corn gluten feed compete with DDGs to be part of the feed ration.

"From every bushel of corn, an ethanol plant produces 2.7 gallons of ethanol and 18 pounds of dried distillers grains," said Cindy Overhue, senior product manager-feed grains. The initial co-product is about 60 percent water. It is run through a drying process to reduce the moisture content to about 10 percent. This increases the product life and, following a cooling process, condenses the DDGs into granular form suitable for transportation.

From 2002 to 2005, the amount of DDGs Union Pacific moved more than doubled, and a similar increase is projected for 2005 to 2008. Last year, volume was 9,100 carloads, and that's projected to increase to 22,000 in 2008.

DDGs move in shipper-provided private covered hoppers, with large 6,300-cubic-feet cars becoming the new industry standard. As with ethanol, more unit trains are being used to move DDGs. California now is the primary destination market, and it's anticipated that Mexico and Idaho will begin accepting unit trains later this year.

"Ethanol producers also are researching other uses for dried distillers grains," Overhue said. Potential uses include feed for poultry and swine. Research also is under way to use DDGs as an energy source for ethanol plants.




More info.........


Moving ethanol from the corn belt states to destination markets across the country is big business for Union Pacific, which is expanding its infrastructure and adding unit trains to meet demand.

Primarily a Midwest commodity only a few years ago, ethanol now is reaching markets on the East and West coasts, as well as in the South. Propelling this demand is a federal requirement that 7.5 billion gallons of ethanol be blended into the nation's gasoline pool by 2012, as well as a move away from the gasoline additive MTBE. Added to gasoline, ethanol helps meet clean-air requirements for emissions.

The numbers tell the story of the nation's growing reliance on ethanol as an alternative fuel source:

UP's ethanol volume grew 24 percent in 2005, following 2004's double-digit growth of 21 percent.
UP currently serves 39 ethanol plants with a total capacity of 2.6 billion gallons.
Eleven new plants with 640 million gallons of capacity will come on line this year; 13 new plants and 690 million gallons of capacity are planned for 2007.
"Plants are increasing in size, which leads to more interest in unit trains," said Katie Hadenfeldt, business manager-bio fuels. "Just a year ago, the average size of a plant was 50 million gallons, and now 100 million gallons is quickly becoming average." A 100-million-gallon plant produces enough ethanol to build one unit train per week.

California was one of the first markets for ethanol, following the state's ban on MTBE. Now, Union Pacific works with CSX to move unit trains from the Midwest to Albany, N.Y., and Seawaren, N.J. And, the Dallas market is expanding with an April 1 requirement for reformulated gasoline. Refiners are meeting this requirement with ethanol.

A permanent unloading facility for unit trains is planned in Euless, Texas, and it is scheduled to open next year. In the interim, customers are unloading cars on leased track.

"Plants are increasing in size, which leads to more interest in unit trains."

– Katie Hadenfeldt, business manager-bio fuels


Destination plants where grain shuttle trains bring corn to facilities that produce ethanol for local consumption are on the increase in California, Arizona and Colorado.

UP continues to commit resources to expand its infrastructure. A total of $60 million in capacity improvements for Iowa and Minnesota has been approved. Capital improvements for destination markets to allow unit train unloading also are being pursued. An additional $16 million is planned for infrastructure improvements in Nebraska.

Finding locations for new ethanol plants is one of the challenges facing the industry. Facilities require an adequate corn draw -- a 100-million-gallon plant needs 34 million bushels of corn annually -- as well as transportation, energy and water sources.

"Each proposed plant goes through our Customer Service Profile process and is evaluated by Operating, Engineering, Service Design and Capacity Planning departments before we determine if Union Pacific will be able to service a specific site," Hadenfeldt said. New plants must meet strict requirements, such as not blocking the main line and having the capability to hold all empty and loaded cars in the facility.

[bull]

I think there's going to end up being several different alternatives at first until something radical emerges as the clear winner. But then you know how that goes. It's going to become a big political battle between special interest groups involved with different technologies and the one with the most influence will win, no matter how inferior their product is, kind of like the beta vs. VHS battle. Ethanol is good to a point but there are problems associated with it. It's basically grain alcohol but the good thing about it is that your current internal combustion engine can be adapted to run on it for not a lot of money. So there's that and then there's electricity in either the straight up battery form or the hybrid technology. I'm not too impressed with the hybrid technology as it is now because the mileage improvement isn't substantial enough. Toyota now makes a regular internal combustion car (Yarus I think) that gets almost the same mph as the Prious, and it costs a lot less. The two hybrid buses in our bus fleet only get something like 1 to 1.5 mpg better fuel economy than the regular buses which cannot justify the extra $100k in the purchase price. Carroll Shelby thinks that fuel cell technology is the way to go but we're a long way from making that happen. Hydrogen sounds good but I don't know much about it. Lately I've been thinking that the way to commute now is with electric cars (if someone would make one that doesn't make you look like a tree-hugging pansy when you drive it) and then going with the E85 or ethanol mix and biodiesel for the bigger rigs that need real horsepower and torque to do the job.

[The Ghoul]

"From every bushel of corn, an ethanol plant produces 2.7 gallons of ethanol and 18 pounds of dried distillers grains," said Cindy Overhue,
SWEET!
So we should be seeing corn liquor hitting the market soon!
that's what I call win-win!! 

[Silver68RT]

I'm actually thinking about setting my '68 Charger R/T up to run on E85.  I think it's around 105 octane, so you can run higher compression, and alcohol should run cooler than gas.  Fuel economy won't really be a factor, because it won't be a daily driver, but I expect alcohol to get cheaper, and gas to keep going up.  There's 2 stations near me that carry E85, and probably more coming.

I'm thinking I'll need stainless fuel lines, maybe upsized to 1/2" due to the higher flow required, higher flow rate alcohol compatible fuel pump, maybe go with EFI.  Anybody making a stainless steel fuel tank?  I figure I'll be replacing most of this stuff anyway, so I can spend a little extra now, and it'll be compatible with E85 if I decide to go that way.  With EFI, it shouldn't be too hard to do two fuel maps, one for gas, one for E85, and switch between them if I want to go back to gas.  I think a carb would be harder, unless you had one set up for E85 with bigger jets, probably alcohol needle and seats too, and another for gas.  Until E85 stations become more commonplace, I think road trips would be hard with a dedicated E85 setup.

Doug
Silver68RT

[Silver R/T]

start investing in corn fields guys

[WH23G3G]

I've asked the guys in the Datsun 210 club that I belong to about converting an older carbureted engine to run on ethanol and have gotten similar answers. Just about everyone in this Datsun 210 club owns an older Mopar too, so I thought that was cool. But here's what one of the guys said, very interesting stuff. 

Ethanol actually burns cooler than gasoline.
Ethanol requires a high air to fuel mixture ratio than gasoline, which causes a reduction in gas mileage by a varying percentage. That being said, it is actually easier to convert a carbuerated vehicle than fuel injection.  With carbueration, you adjust a screw, with EFI it requires a change in the pulse rate of the injector, for quicker pulses, which means a computer chip modification.

The big issue, is inside the engine.  A greater than 1% ratio of water per volume in ethanol creates a corrosive acid during the combustion process.  This acid will eat through old style cork engines and corrode the metal.

Modern engines that are alternative fuel vehicles have a coating of corrosive resistant metal (I do not remember what) that will protect the engine if this acid is produced, and has gaskets that will resist the corrosive effect of ethanol.

Ethanol creates a higher compression than gasoline, and in lower compression engines can actually reduce gas mileage.  However, the by product of Ethanol is CO2 rather than CO which is a good thing enviromentally.

Higher compression engines the gas mileage loss is not as significant, AND in turbo applications the potential is there for equivalent to better gas mileage.

Note: The above information applies whether your using a 10% ethanol or 85% ethanol mixture.  However, I have heard of being able to run up to 20% ethanol in these old engines with out issue.

[Big Lebowski]

My Charger barely runs on that crap they call gas now, so I'm using 91 octane and race gas mixed. There's no fricken way I'm clogging up my 440 with that corn syrup crap.

[WM23N1G1]

Hi,

any recent news on this type of conversion? The E85 is the big thing with collectibles, and some people experimented it with success on cars with carbs.
I think Summit now sells special E85 carbs.
Has anyone got a step further by using pure alcohol? I don't think of an everyday use, but for a car that drives 12 times a year...

[hemihead]

I think there are some down sides to all this too . Increase in price of anything you eat made of corn . Foreign countries are already crying about the price of food going up because we are starting to use corn for fuel .The fuels made with corn will sooner or later cost as much as gasoline . Let's face it , greed is still there and the government won't want to take in less taxes than they make now on gasoline and if there is a way for some rich guy to pad his bank account they will .  And don't forget , alcohol attracts water. They tried stuff they called Gasohol in the 70's . Lots of people had all kinds of problems with that stuff .

[WM23N1G1]

I know about the food price. I heard that some mexicans got crazy because the price of the tacos went up, and that USA citizen were worried by the increase of the beer price. 
I think it's not a good idea to developp that kind of business, because it can only be a mid-term solution, with very bad impacts.
I was just thinking of using alcohol for a barely used car, to make it run "clearer". The price of the "alcoholic fuel" wouldn't be a problem for this car. Don't dirt track cars run on methanol?

[bull]

start investing in corn fields guys

What does that mean? Anyone?

[Blown70]

ethanol isnt a logical alternative...     ethanol prices have shot up over $1 n the last 2-3 months and there isnt enough available...     plus ethanol burns at twice the rate of good old gasoline...     yes...    half the price but you have to buy twice as much

My understanding is that Methanol is 2x the regular amount of fuel (gasoline).

Ethanol is 1.6x the amount of gasoline?

So it should not be as much as double?

Anyway, it is almost irrelevant int he fact you really would be running fat if you tried to run a carb on both ethanol/gas.  Pick one would be my suggestion.

Tom

[dpm68]

There's no fricken way I'm clogging up my 440 with that corn syrup crap.

Not a convert anytime soon I guess?

[Chad L. Magee]

I think there are some down sides to all this too . Increase in price of anything you eat made of corn . Foreign countries are already crying about the price of food going up because we are starting to use corn for fuel .The fuels made with corn will sooner or later cost as much as gasoline . Let's face it , greed is still there and the government won't want to take in less taxes than they make now on gasoline and if there is a way for some rich guy to pad his bank account they will .  And don't forget , alcohol attracts water. They tried stuff they called Gasohol in the 70's . Lots of people had all kinds of problems with that stuff .

Yes, pure (200 proof) ethanol natually attracts water to form a 95% ethanol/5% water mixture (190 proof-same as everclear you buy at the liquor store) if left open to the air long enough.  It pulls the moisture out of the environment, so the only way you can prevent this from occuring is to either store it away from air in a sealed container or add an absorbant inside the storage tank.  You do have to be careful with ethanol in engines as it is a corrosive to particular metals (aluminum pistons for example can oxidize) and that leads to long term durability issues.  I have run 10% blend (89 octane) in my 350 Iroc daily beater and it runs perfectly fine with that (although mpg is down a bit around town).  The reason I run that is because it is priced the same as 87 octane unleaded, while the 91 octane is $.20 a gallon more expensive, so I feel that it is a good compromise.  I plan on rebuilding the engine within a few years, so I am not as worried about it damaging something (plus it is only a camaro).  On the other hand, my 92 F-150 (302 EFI) hated the 10% stuff and would easily vapor lock if any was still in the tank while running.  I changed it back to 87 and it ran fine.  So, I think it really depends alot on the engine whether or not it can run on the 10% stuff.  I have yet to run ethanol in my older mopars........

[Chatt69chgr]

I've always heard that alcohol will cause rusting of iron (like fuel lines and gas tanks), corrosion of diecast and aluminum components, and hardening of incompatible rubber parts.  Also, will eat paint.  So I was wondering, since they are sticking alcohol in gas now, will we see problems with our vehicles we drive every day?  For that matter, what about our collector cars.  We don't drive them much.  They sit all the time.  Will  ethanol in the gas be harmful just sitting in the fuel pump, gas lines, tank, etc?  And finally, what about the aluminum heads that are being supplied by Edelbrock and 440Source.  What will 10% ethanol gas do to them?  And finally, finally, what about getting the drips from the filler nozzle on the paint of our vehicles?  Will it mess up the paint?

[Tilar]

start investing in corn fields guys

What does that mean? Anyone?

We have close to 90 acres of corn, oats, soy beans and wheat in different combinations every year... One year we plant mainly soy beans and the next year its corn with a little hay oats and wheat in the mix. We already prepaid $156 a ton for fertilizer for this coming summer and they say that will be cheap by the time it's needed. Trust me, with the cost of equipment and fertilizer the chances of anyone getting rich growing corn is slim to none.

[J-440]

  If you guys want power numbers from E85 motors, check out the latest issue of CAR CRAFT.  Dynomax offered a $25,000 purse to whomever could produce the most power through a set of their mufflers on pump gas or E85.  The top 5 guys (various twin turboed motors and one NA HEMICUDA) produced over 1100 horsepower.  These cars were fully streetable and licensed and insured.  The top 2 finishers used E85.  Now these motors were radically modified, but HOT ROD and CAR CRAFT are constantly showing the power made from this alternative fuel with little mods done to an existing motor. 
  Another problem with mass producing E85 is that the US needs a ton of land to make corn to power these future vehicles.  I'm assuming that the prices of all corn-based products will also rise along with the fuel.  But hey, better that me and my family pay a hard working farmer my US dollar than going to overseas oil producing countries such as Dubai.  Speaking of which, do a GOOGLE search on the business boom that's going on over there...friggin outrageous!!

[aussiemuscle]

yeah - then the price of corn will be on the rise, in turn the ethanol price will rise to about what gasoline is now

Hey! you've just figured out the oil company's plans!

For those worried about 'food for fuel', my company is looking at making ethanol from waste wood products (stuff they normally burn) (aka 2nd gen eth).

[charger_mike75]

You can make ethenol from other stuff besides corn     Down in S.America they make it out of suger cain and it is better than ethenol made from corn and cheaper to produce.

[suntech]

I used to play around with fuel a lot , when i raced boats. MTBE, wich is ether, has a huge oxygen content, and i used that mostly when we were having aspiration problems, due to small carbs, mandatet by the rules. That is the biggest advantage with MTBE, toghether with a healthy octane #. It also binds water with the fuel. a 2-3 % jet increase is close to what needed to make it work, with fuel containing 10 % MTBE, compared to fuel with no MTBE. A little power gain can be found, specially if you are on the small side with carburator, and you can use a little more spark advance.
E 85 needs app35 % more fuel ( give and take a little), and has a higher octane #, and can deal with higher compression ratio, and stiffer spark advance.
Gaskets and seals must ofcause be able to handle this fuel. I guy here in Norway did a lot of testing on a BB Chevy engine, originally built for 98 RON ( like 92 in the US).
He found a 7% torque, and 5 % hp increase on E 85, over the normal fuel.
I think i will do some dynotesting with my Hemi, and see how it works, when i get the engine ready
Rolf

[Mike DC]

 
People with very big brains have devoted decades to studying these issues.  They still say crude oil is by far the cheapest thing on the planet. 

Anything else that looks competitive is just a case of the costs being shifted around to other less-obvious areas of the economy.  Or it's an option that can't be done on a larger scale without raising the costs dramatically from their experimental lows. 



Having said that, the US gov't might very well push ethanol harder in the future for domestic fuel usage just for political reasons.  No harm in getting more familiar with the stuff.