440 piston questions for the pros!

[rikubot]

I'm building my 440 and am hoping to have it ready for the car by the time it gets back from paint.

So far I have LY rods with ARP wave lock bolts that have been appropriately re-sized. She has a forged crank with rod journals at .020 and a mopar six pack cam.

I have a set of 440 Source Stealth heads for it that are closed chambered and I believe are 80cc.

I think my deck height is pretty close to stock as there are no markings on it but I can check if needed.

My question is: what pistons should I go with if I want to up my compression to about 10.5:1 when all bolted up?

I was looking at som Icon pistons on Mancini but I really don't know what to order and I would love to hear some thoughts on it. I plan on it being a mild build for a driver. Headers, performer RPM intake.

Thanks in advance.
- Mike

[John_Kunkel]

I have a set of 440 Source Stealth heads for it that are closed chambered and I believe are 80cc.

I think my deck height is pretty close to stock as there are no markings on it but I can check if needed.

Don't guess at the volumes and deck, measure them and use that info to choose the piston.

[BSB67]

You should probably use, oh wait, I'm not a pro.

[Challenger340]

* Block deck heights can vary by as much as .020" from factory.... but the majority are 'higher' than published. NO WAY to determine 'where' yours is relative to your desired 10.5:1 without measuring with a mock up on all 4 corners... or setting the Block up on a Block Mill with BHJ fixture

* Most Stealth Heads are between 82-83 CC's as delivered.....Fel Pro 1009 is about the tightest "CC" volume Composition style Head Gasket at 9.76 CC's

* The only way to "appropriately' Re-Size Rods is with the Rod Bearings present and measured as well.... and then Re Sized "appropriately" according to the intended application.... Re Sized to the Crankshaft Sizing as Mic'd at that time.
It doesn't matter whether the Crank is .010" under... .020" under.... or .030" under... what matters is WHERE the Crankshaft is ground to within the .001" tolerance for each ?

No matter...
the ICON 9953 are our 'default' go to Piston for that type of build.... they should be Pin-Fit at .0007" to .0008" clearance.... and the LY Rods should be done at the same time to .001" interference for easy thermal installation. The 9953 uses the std 5/64" ring Pack which is budget friendly and can be had in either CAST or MOLY Top Ring configuration depending upon the final cylinder hone finish used... we use Moly at a 280 grit plateau done with a Torque Plate.

The Rotating Assemble will need to be Balanced.

IMO.... just say'in here.... sounds to me like you are attempting a "blueprint" specification engine....  without those actual "Blueprinting" procedures being performed ?
It won't work.... you might just as well be throwing darts at a board ?
measure... measure... measure....

[rikubot]

11.68 seconds in a 50+ year old car that weighs 4,100+ lbs makes you pretty damn good at building a car. Shoot, I'd be stoked on a 13.68!

[rikubot]

Challenger440,

I really appreciate the advice. For what it's worth, I did find a machine shop one town over with a very knowledgeable machinist. I know that's different than an engine builder but I'm hoping he will be able to help guide me in the right direction. I'm not looking for anything crazy, just a streetable engine with a little more pep than stock. It previously had pistons .08 in the hole with 908 heads and a weak camshaft.

I was thinking of calling the machine shop tomorrow to see if they could boil the block, install cam bearings, hone the cylinders, and eventually balance the rotating assembly once I find the correct pistons. So I should CC the heads just to make sure they around close the the 80cc advertised.

I did have some ARP bolts installed and then re-sized by the same shop but he didn't have my crank at the time.

[BSB67]

Okay.  I'm going to be brutally honest here.  The fact that you cannot figure out for yourself what piston to use, but want 10.5:1 compression ratio scares me a little.  Either you "own" the engine build, i.e. make all of the decisions, or you leave it to a trusted professional.  Only after a detailed conversation, can the right pistons, among other things, be choosen.

I will give you a high level answer.

Generally, I would say you don't have to measure everything before you start making choices.  You'll need to know what bore the block will clean up to, and it would be nice to get a approximate deck height measured with a 12" caliper.  The reason for this is to make sure someone else didnt cut a bunch off the deck.  If you know that this has not happened then proceed without.

With a compression ratio of 10.5.1 puts you close enough to potential detonation, you do need to measure all of the volumes, eventually, and tweek stuff to hit the number.

If you are hell bent on the 10.5:1 and Stealth head, the piston choice is simple.  Get a flat top piston with a compression distance of 2.06 to 2.07 and deck the block for zero deck.  There are several makers of pistons that have these pistons.  They vary a little in valve relief volume, but that simply gets factored in to the final decisions to hit the 10.5:1. This will put you in the 10.3 to 10.7 range and you simple manage the details to hit your desired number.  Your valve pockets, chamber volume and head gasket thickness are your adjustment areas to reduce the CR if needed.

Or you can get a dished piston with a 2.06 to 2.07 CD.  They usually have somewhere around 12 cc volume.  Again, mill for zero deck.  There are several companies making these pistons as well.  In this senerio, you don't worry too much about the exact details as the final compression ratio will be safe, somewhere between 9.5 to 10.0.  

[Challenger340]

Challenger440,

I really appreciate the advice. For what it's worth, I did find a machine shop one town over with a very knowledgeable machinist. I know that's different than an engine builder but I'm hoping he will be able to help guide me in the right direction. I'm not looking for anything crazy, just a streetable engine with a little more pep than stock. It previously had pistons .08 in the hole with 908 heads and a weak camshaft.

I was thinking of calling the machine shop tomorrow to see if they could boil the block, install cam bearings, hone the cylinders, and eventually balance the rotating assembly once I find the correct pistons. So I should CC the heads just to make sure they around close the the 80cc advertised.

I did have some ARP bolts installed and then re-sized by the same shop but he didn't have my crank at the time.

Just use the ICON 9953 Pistons under a set of Stealth Heads, get the rotating Assembly Balanced and call it a day.... because without following actual 'blueprinting' procedures ?  that's as close to any target Compression Ratio as you are going to get anyways ?

What I mean is....  "what" did the machinist Size your Rods to ? a "spec" ? where within that "spec" ? How much did each Rod shrink from that "spec" once cracked for the first time and re-torqued ? or were they even cracked/stress relieved and re-torqued after Honing ?
Probably NOT !
So this means your Rods were "sized" somewhere between a half-thou tolerance spec.... then as soon as they are cooled and cracked for the first time most will shrink at least another half-thou from "where-ever" they were before.... then you will install Bearings with variances we've seen in sets up to another half-thou.... and all this will be installed on a Crank that is ground .020" but nobody knows where those Crank Journals are within that One-Thou tolerance ?
Add it all up....
and although I admire the verve of DIY that persists even today....
it's not hard to see that potentially you could have anywhere between .001" to .0025" Bearing Clearance differences.... that you will attempt to check upon assembly with plasti-gauge ?

The DIY days are long gone.... same as the Machine Shops and knowledge that allowed it 'back in the day'

Off Topic...
But IMO.... we have indeed become the new Cubans....
who when faced with a parts embargo crippling their American Cars back in the 50's.... which they then could not make run anymore, very simply began transplanting LADA and Toyota or whatever 'running' engines they could access into their 50's Cars to keep them going>
Just look at the popularity today of "transplanting" recycled Gen 3 Hemi's in the old cars ? ostensibly because people want the way the "modern" engine starts/runs right ?

I'm calling BULLSH*T !
It's because them nimrods can't access the know-how or even afford to rebuild the old Engines properly anymore ! That's it... that's all !
because...
just WHO is going to 'rebuild" that gen 3 Hemi when it craters as they already are with their inherent Ca/Lifter problems huh ?

[rikubot]

I would be perfectly happy with anything around 10:1 compression to be honest. I'd like to make decent power but this car will ultimately be a cruiser.

It does seem engine building is a lost art. And the more I learn the more I am finding out how little I know. I am supposed to talk with the machinist on Friday and I'll talk to him about the rods and voice my concerns.

We used to have two machine shops in town and one very good builder. The shops are gone and the builder works out of his house and is impossible to get a hold of or to get to do work if you need to. He owns rental properties so he doesn't need to work to make money so he has no motivation. The other builder a town over sold shop about a year ago and the new guy supposedly doesn't know what he's doing.

I really appreciate all of your input. I'm finding that the couple of friends that I have around town that are still into old muscle aren't as knowledgeable as I first thought.

[Challenger340]

I would be perfectly happy with anything around 10:1 compression to be honest. I'd like to make decent power but this car will ultimately be a cruiser.

It does seem engine building is a lost art. And the more I learn the more I am finding out how little I know. I am supposed to talk with the machinist on Friday and I'll talk to him about the rods and voice my concerns.

We used to have two machine shops in town and one very good builder. The shops are gone and the builder works out of his house and is impossible to get a hold of or to get to do work if you need to. He owns rental properties so he doesn't need to work to make money so he has no motivation. The other builder a town over sold shop about a year ago and the new guy supposedly doesn't know what he's doing.

I really appreciate all of your input. I'm finding that the couple of friends that I have around town that are still into old muscle aren't as knowledgeable as I first thought.

Oh it is indeed becoming a lost art IMO.

No offense intended.... because even in what you are trying to do "I'd like to make decent power "... the factory used to modify "procedures" and the "specs" used inside the Engines away from the published data you are using.... and THAT was merely for 375 hp engines ?

You see that's what I'm saying here ?
YOU..... are trying to use the 'published' counter data to build a 450-500 hp 440 Engine ? and again here, NO offense intended....  but you and your Machinist don't seem to even realize that modified clearances and "HOW" those clearances are attained during the Machining processes is required for best results ?
You are just "ReSizing" Rods to "whatever" within the published spec.... Grind a Crank .020" to "whatever" within that spec.... THROWING A DART and hoping for a Hail Mary ?

Todays genre of Engine Building has become more like even the Blind Chickens getting the odd Kernel of corn .... than actual realization of planned goals/targets ?
And I believe much of today's HIGH failure rates within the DIY area is a direct result ?
It's NOT that the older Engines can't still be built to fantastic power levels with equally great reliability.... THEY CAN !
It's the procedures and know-how to perform that work that has been lost against ever higher and higher costs associated to get there ?

Again... NO OFFENSE.... but look at what you yourself are trying to do because it's too expensive to PAY to get it done like it was done 'back in the day' ?
We used to do A... then B... then C.... then D.... etc., etc    and all through the procedure D checked C... which C had checked B... which B had checked A....
Now that costs too much ?

So people are trying to get D.. G... and P.... so it will run and screw it together ?

If you get lucky and it runs.....
I'm willing to bet it may fail prematurely down the road sub-mileages ? or leak Oil from the rear main.... etc., etc.

And if it fails during incipient mileages after huge investments ?.... the likelihood of entertaining the Gen 3 swaps is then propagated simply because it will "run" ?

* Engine Bearings only cool from the free flow of lifeblood Oil IN.... and OUT again to then allow replenishment of cooler Oil in again. This is done through Vertical clrc and side clrc in pairs.
* Engine Bearing Clearances in intended HP Engines are selected proportional to intended usage.... RPM expected, Loads expected, and Operating Temperatures expected.
* Engine Bearing eccentricities for above clearances... should be set with maximum "crush" on the Bearing applied during Final Rod ReSizing.... meaning the Oil "Clearance" is pre-planned/targeted by grinding the HP Engine Crankshaft to the Lowside/Bottom of the tolerance to allow the extra .001" "room" for setting of the Vertical Clearance during Rod Re-Sizing
* Think of the Engine Oiling System like blowing into a garden hose.... with the far end sealed off..... but different size "Holes" drilling along the length of that Hose ? If you have all the BIG holes close to the end you are blowing into ? how much comes out the very small holes at the far end ?  So you should be starting to understand the importance of "targeted" Bearing Clearances throughout an HP engine at rpm ?

Even the factory "magnum" engines came down a side assembly area ?
Their Cranks were ground lowside.... their Piston and Rod Assemblies were Rods lowside(crush) and Pistons "C" in D Holes... etc., etc.
And back in those days all engine Oils were chock FULL of ep additives like Zinc/Moly/Phosphorous, etc., etc which amounted to "Mass" in the pour points at temps ?

Todays Oils have NONE of that.... and WHY you must Modify Machining procedures(remember the Garden Hose) within the older Engines beforehand to account for these Oil changes(blueprinting ?)
That...
or at the very least if it runs OK then let the engine itself tell you what "weight" of Oil it needs to maintain sufficient Oil Pressure ? which is the most common Band-aide used by many today after the fact.

I'm out...
Good Luck.... take your time.... get the Pistons and Rods Pin-Fit as well and buy some Mics and a 2" to 6" Bore Gauge for clrcs and do your best.

[c00nhunterjoe]

The fact that you "would be happy with something around 10:1" says you shouldnt make the choices on the build. Been down this road 1,000 times over. Find a reputable chrysler shop, tell them the end goal for the car with what gears, converter and tires will be on the car, and pay the bill when its done.

[rikubot]

I'm basically following a buddies build with this one. I was having trouble with finding pistons because he had his block decked because of a gouge in the block.

So I've got this going so far:

- 0.040 over 440 block
- 440 source stealth heads
- mopar purple shaft six pack cam
- icon 9953 pistons
- 3.23 gears in an 8 3/4 with an auto trans

I've got a pic of the specs me and the builder came up with. Let me hear your thoughts.

[John Milner]

I'm certainly no pro, but I run the Mopar purple shaft 6 pack cam (268/284 .450 .458) in a 9.5:1 440.  While it is a great cam for an every day driver, I highly doubt it would make 450-500 horsepower in a 440.  It is a very mild cam.   

[rikubot]

That's perfectly fine for me. If for some reason I feel it's not enough I can change it out later. I want this car to be a cruiser. I've put way too much time and money into it to beat on it lol. Thanks for the input John 

[Challenger340]

I wouldn't use anything less than mid 225'ish @ 050 duration on the Intake side, because that is the entire reason for targeting 10:1 static CR..... that being, the ability to employ a usable lobe profile for extra breathing/power and still trap sufficient air/fuel ABDC for decent Dynamic Compression Ratio and Torque down low/mid range.
The Comp Cams XE268H comes to mind as minimum here ?
We've used it before on similar builds with what is IMO absolutely awesome results the Customers are extremely happy with, and just a very slightly more than stock musclecar exhaust note.

[rikubot]

I wouldn't use anything less than mid 225'ish @ 050 duration on the Intake side, because that is the entire reason for targeting 10:1 static CR..... that being, the ability to employ a usable lobe profile for extra breathing/power and still trap sufficient air/fuel ABDC for decent Dynamic Compression Ratio and Torque down low/mid range.
The Comp Cams XE268H comes to mind as minimum here ?
We've used it before on similar builds with what is IMO absolutely awesome results the Customers are extremely happy with, and just a very slightly more than stock musclecar exhaust note.

Thank you for your input good sir. What kind of power difference would that give me over the 6 pack cam? I was comparing the specs on the cam but can't decipher what the major difference is. I'm open to getting another cam. I paid $250 for this one and I'm sure I could get most of that back if I sold it. Also noticed the Comp is a reasonable price.

[rikubot]

Also, would this leave me with enough vacuum for my power breaks and hide away headlights?

[Challenger340]

I wouldn't use anything less than mid 225'ish @ 050 duration on the Intake side, because that is the entire reason for targeting 10:1 static CR..... that being, the ability to employ a usable lobe profile for extra breathing/power and still trap sufficient air/fuel ABDC for decent Dynamic Compression Ratio and Torque down low/mid range.
The Comp Cams XE268H comes to mind as minimum here ?
We've used it before on similar builds with what is IMO absolutely awesome results the Customers are extremely happy with, and just a very slightly more than stock musclecar exhaust note.

Thank you for your input good sir. What kind of power difference would that give me over the 6 pack cam? I was comparing the specs on the cam but can't decipher what the major difference is. I'm open to getting another cam. I paid $250 for this one and I'm sure I could get most of that back if I sold it. Also noticed the Comp is a reasonable price.

I haven't Dyno'd the factory 6-pack cam ?

But we've Dyno'd and seen 470hp/510 Ft/Lbs on a .030" over 440 with Street Ported Eddy's and our Street/Strip Valve Grind & Seat prep using the Comp XE268H.....with plenty of Vacuum for Brakes/Headlights.
and
that's the Cam I will be using in my #'s matching 440 for my '69 Charger R/T SE survivor with Stealth Heads ? I just haven't decided about opening it to a 112 LSA or using OOTB on 110 Lsa yet..... no matter, when ordering I will also be getting it Nitrided for good measure.
and yes....
I am also using the ICON 9953's

[cdr]

I wouldn't use anything less than mid 225'ish @ 050 duration on the Intake side, because that is the entire reason for targeting 10:1 static CR..... that being, the ability to employ a usable lobe profile for extra breathing/power and still trap sufficient air/fuel ABDC for decent Dynamic Compression Ratio and Torque down low/mid range.
The Comp Cams XE268H comes to mind as minimum here ?
We've used it before on similar builds with what is IMO absolutely awesome results the Customers are extremely happy with, and just a very slightly more than stock musclecar exhaust note.

Thank you for your input good sir. What kind of power difference would that give me over the 6 pack cam? I was comparing the specs on the cam but can't decipher what the major difference is. I'm open to getting another cam. I paid $250 for this one and I'm sure I could get most of that back if I sold it. Also noticed the Comp is a reasonable price.

I haven't Dyno'd the factory 6-pack cam ?

But we've Dyno'd and seen 470hp/510 Ft/Lbs on a .030" over 440 with Street Ported Eddy's and our Street/Strip Valve Grind & Seat prep using the Comp XE268H.....with plenty of Vacuum for Brakes/Headlights.
and
that's the Cam I will be using in my #'s matching 440 for my '69 Charger R/T SE survivor with Stealth Heads ? I just haven't decided about opening it to a 112 LSA or using OOTB on 110 Lsa yet..... no matter, when ordering I will also be getting it Nitrided for good measure.
and yes....
I am also using the ICON 9953's

I know you are smarter than me Bob, BUT as you know with stock exhaust manifolds LSA at least 112 to 114 & install it @ 108ish ICL,

[rikubot]

Challenger 340,

Thanks for the input. What transmission and gears will you be using? If auto, what stall?

[Challenger340]

I wouldn't use anything less than mid 225'ish @ 050 duration on the Intake side, because that is the entire reason for targeting 10:1 static CR..... that being, the ability to employ a usable lobe profile for extra breathing/power and still trap sufficient air/fuel ABDC for decent Dynamic Compression Ratio and Torque down low/mid range.
The Comp Cams XE268H comes to mind as minimum here ?
We've used it before on similar builds with what is IMO absolutely awesome results the Customers are extremely happy with, and just a very slightly more than stock musclecar exhaust note.

Thank you for your input good sir. What kind of power difference would that give me over the 6 pack cam? I was comparing the specs on the cam but can't decipher what the major difference is. I'm open to getting another cam. I paid $250 for this one and I'm sure I could get most of that back if I sold it. Also noticed the Comp is a reasonable price.

I haven't Dyno'd the factory 6-pack cam ?

But we've Dyno'd and seen 470hp/510 Ft/Lbs on a .030" over 440 with Street Ported Eddy's and our Street/Strip Valve Grind & Seat prep using the Comp XE268H.....with plenty of Vacuum for Brakes/Headlights.
and
that's the Cam I will be using in my #'s matching 440 for my '69 Charger R/T SE survivor with Stealth Heads ? I just haven't decided about opening it to a 112 LSA or using OOTB on 110 Lsa yet..... no matter, when ordering I will also be getting it Nitrided for good measure.
and yes....
I am also using the ICON 9953's

I know you are smarter than me Bob, BUT as you know with stock exhaust manifolds LSA at least 112 to 114 & install it @ 108ish ICL,

I'm NOT smarter than anybody LOL !
Yep, and you are correct here Charlie....
in that 112 Lsa should be Rec'd and considered a minimum with HP Manifolds for most people, and some should even consider defaulting to around 114 installed at 108 ?
110* should NOT be advised with HP Manifolds especially above 4500 rpm.... my BAD !

I had tunnel vision contemplating mine ?.... and I should have elaborated that I really like those XE268H Lobes and I wanna 'play' a bit here with my build and see what happens ? and where it leads ?
It wouldn't be the first time I wasted a bunch of my time proving everybody else was right.... which is most of the time LOL !
just say'in.....
it's that one time sometimes, even by accident ? that a guy stumbles upon something and goes "huh" ?

example:
common/accepted wisdom is that sub .050" Piston/Head quench is best also right ?
What if I told you....
we proved on the Dyno that under certain applications, increasing the quench from .045" to .085" quench..... picked up over 60 HP ! DRAMATIC ! same engine.... NO other changes other than Head Gasket thickness changed right there on the Dyno !
The 'test' was changing back to the thinner Head gasket and watching it toilet right back down where it was before again ?
I just STFU about that one now.....  after trying over on Moparts to discuss that phenom for awhile a few years back.

Stock Heads... HP Manifolds and Exhaust ?
No question 112 or 114 lsa should be rec'd for most apps.

[Challenger340]

Challenger 340,

Thanks for the input. What transmission and gears will you be using? If auto, what stall?

Auto/3.23 sure grip

Read the above post.... Charlie is correct about the 112* lsa with HP manifolds/stock heads ? maybe even 114* lsa although I have no data that wide ?

I had 'tunnel vision' about my build when I responded.... I really like the lobes on the XE268H.... but my response about using the OOTB 110 lsa probably isn't great for your application unless you are going to use Headers ?
I'm "playing" with my Heads/Flow Bench on mine.... Dyno'ing, etc., etc.
so even though I'm using the HP manifolds I can change parameters you can't around the 110* and see where I end up ? YOU can't !
So if you are considering the XE268H and stock HP manifolds ?
Charlie's advice above is really good in looking at getting the XE268H ground on a 112 lsa and Nitrided..... OOTB 110 with Headers.

[rikubot]

I completely forgot to mention that I was going to run 1 7/8" headers. Hoping budget allows for TTI but if not I'll find some other headers. I was most likely going to run their 3" x-pipe setup as well. 

[rikubot]

I ended up ordering that cam you recommended. I think it will be perfect for my build.

I got around to painting the block. I went with rattle-can VHT "Street Hemi Orange". I'm not sure how I feel about it. What do y'all think?

[rikubot]

I've got the stamped stuff painted for the 440. The oil pan has seen better days but it's still solid so I'm going to run it. I'm planning on painting the aluminum intake, water pump housing, and aluminum heads. What is the best way to paint aluminum? I'm using VHT.