Help me choose between Firm Feel Stage I and Stage II (tougher than it sounds)

[DAmatt]

Hi everybody,

My steering box is leaking rivers, so I bought a used core to send to Firm Feel (shipping mine would have been $400). So basically I have to choose between their 3 stages, which sounds rather simple, considering the overwhelming favor the Stage II has over here and on the net in general.

Now here comes the tricky part....

I'm from Transilvania (the hilly/mountainous region of Romania, EU), and growing up I never had any contact with American cars, though I grew up with all your movies, which I think turned me into a secret American on the inside   My automotive childhood was filled with cars that had sharp steering, but no power on the straits (think BMW E34 518i 4 cylinder), so naturally I grew up wanting the opposite, at least in the straight line speed aspect. Unfortunately, my country is 90% one turn after the other, so naturally when I went to the West coast back in 2017, rented a '67 Mustang, and drove from LA to Vegas on long, straight, highways with no corners whatsoever, I was in Heaven. (Did I mention I dislike corners? )

SOOOOOO, this romantic idea of driving an old muscle car through the empty desert with nothing changing for hours strongly urges me to choose Stage I, I actually liked the fact that you are disconnected from the road, that overassisted feeling was part of the Mustang's character. Now this is not to say I do not enjoy driving a car which transmits every bit of road feel to the driver, but it is a novel experience for me to drive a car that you can steer with your pinky.

Trouble is I will not drive the car on long, straight highways in the Nevada desert, but on narrow, winding, European roads. The rational thinker in me is concerned that romanticism will fade when being confronted with reality, and that there is the real possibility I would have remorse over not choosing Stage II, this setup making the car more livable on twisty roads.

Any input is most welcome, especially if you guys live in a twisty road area. Any of you from Europe, perhaps? Is it enjoyable driving an American car with standard steering over here?

Thanks in advance!

[Kern Dog]

Stage 1 will feel almost the same as a low mile original. Stage 2 will be better but not great. I have the Stage 3 in my Charger. It feels much like the steering in our 2015 Challenger R/T. Power assisted but not overboosted.
If you like how modern cars feel, the Stage 1 and 2 will feel too easy to turn. They feel almost like you're steering on ice.

[Mike DC]

          
Thoughts on this:

1.  I live in a medium-hilly area of the USA.  Yes, the factory steering feels too floaty for my taste.  This is a common opinion over here.  The floaty steering is one of the quirks of the classics and I don't want to lose it entirely, but I do like having it tamed down a bit.  


2.  The disconnected 'floaty' feeling is only partially caused by the strong power-assist.  It's also because of the front wheel alignment.  

50 years ago power steering was an extra-cost option and the cars were still designed to accomodate manual steering.  The steering wheels were big diameters for leverage.  The manual steering gearboxes were very slow-ratio (24:1 on Mopars).  The 'faster' gearbox ratios on power-assisted cars (15.7:1 on Mopars) were not all the way to modern speed yet.  

Old front suspensions had little or no caster angle.  It was another compromise to make the steering easier on manuals.  The lack of caster is what makes the steering 'wander' like a child's tricycle when you let go of the wheel.  

Modern cars tend to have 5+ degrees of caster.  That is why you can be rolling through a turn, let go of the steering wheel, and a modern car's steering will immediately begin to straighten itself out.  It wants to fall back towards straight unless the driver is actively putting pressure on the steering wheel to hold it turned (while the car is rolling).

You can add caster to a classic front suspension with aftermarket upper A-arms.  It's also possible to use an offset bushing kit for the original A-arms but it doesn't allow as much caster as replacing the A-arms.    


3.  The Borgeson aftermarket steering box is a popular upgrade these days.  It's basically a modern GM power steering gearbox from SUVs/trucks.  The case is heavily altered so it bolts into old Mopars without fabrication work.  It's also a few pounds smaller & lighter weight than the original factory steering box.

The Borgeson box feels more precise than the original Chrysler steering box.  I'm not sure exactly how the power assist level compares between them, but IIRC the Borgeson's assist is not as strong.    


4.  Cruising through Transilvania in a classic Charger sounds really cool.

(Is that how you spell it there?  My computer auto-corrects it to 'Transylvania'.  That's always how I've known it to be spelled.)

[Mopar Nut]

         
3.  The Borgeson aftermarket steering box is a popular upgrade these days.  It's basically a modern GM power steering gearbox from SUVs/trucks.  The case heavily altered so it bolts into old Mopars without fabrication work.  It's also a few pounds smaller & lighter weight than the original factory steering box.

The Borgeson box feels more precise than the original Chrysler steering box.  I'm not sure exactly how the power assist level compares between them, but IIRC the Borgeson's assist is not as strong.    

This, from https://bergmanautocraft.com/product-category/steering-parts/

[b5blue]

I use stock (For 25 years) and found swapping to a "Tuff Wheel" type/size steering wheel hit the sweet spot. What are now "BIG" cars in parking lots like the boosted maneuvering.

[Rubberduck]

I use Firm Feel Stage 3. It is the best improvement I made to my Charger.

[CDN72SE]

This is an answer I received from Dennis at Firm Feel when trying to figure out what to go with.


"Stage 1 is just a bit more effort than the stock feel.  Stage 2 is comparable to most modern day power steering efforts.  Stage 3 is a heavy, high effort feel.  We usually recommend stage 1 boxes for the bigger C bodies, stage 2 for B and E bodies, and stage 3 for lighter A bodies.  However, people have different tastes when it comes to the steering systems they are used to and prefer.  You might research some of the forums for preferences of other Mopar owners (For B Bodies Only, for example)."

[DAmatt]

Thanks guys, if the lauded Stage II still feels floaty compared to European cars, I may get on the StageII bandwagon... Did I understand that correctly? One question for you guys, how did you pay for the steering box? I am currently talking to Matt Ross @ Firm Feel, and from what I understand, you either give them your credit card number (which I am really uncomfortable to do), or you send them a check or money order (I understand you can only get them phisically from the US).

Or does their site have a secure form to input & encript your card details? I still haven't got a direct answer when I asked if they accept a wire transfer, from my bank to theirs. Do they have a bank account?

My used core off of ebay is arriving at their doorstep tomorrow, so I'd rather I got the money sent before that

[DAmatt]

PS: yeah, here you spell it Transilvania, but then again, in Germany you spell it Deutschland Have to admit even I, in English speaking circles, more often than not spell it with a y, so as not to create confusion.

[Finn]

I have a stage 2. It is nice but wish I would have gone for stage 3 in retrospect.

Stage 2 feels more precise than stock but still a little bit too light for such a big car.
The most relatable experience I can think of is driving a modern car on a dirt road. It is that feeling but on asphalt.

So if you like to dabble with danger definitely go for stage 2 and pretend it is stage 3.   

[Kern Dog]

I have heard many people with the Stage 2 say that they wished that they would have chosen the 3.   

[b5blue]

Perhaps another option https://www.classicindustries.com/product/all-years/plymouth/all-models/parts/mn7505.html

[BLK 68 R/T]

Stage 3 here. Love it.

[OzCharger69]

I will try and shim the stock Saginaw pump as per article below. The borgeson kit is cheap. I'll report with results.

http://www.moparts.org/Tech/MoparAction/PumpItDown.pdf

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Borgeson-Universal-GM-899001-Power-Steering-Pump-Pressure-Reducing-Kit-/182301871868

[CDN72SE]

This is an answer I received from Dennis at Firm Feel when trying to figure out what to go with.


"Stage 1 is just a bit more effort than the stock feel.  Stage 2 is comparable to most modern day power steering efforts.  Stage 3 is a heavy, high effort feel.  We usually recommend stage 1 boxes for the bigger C bodies, stage 2 for B and E bodies, and stage 3 for lighter A bodies.  However, people have different tastes when it comes to the steering systems they are used to and prefer.  You might research some of the forums for preferences of other Mopar owners (For B Bodies Only, for example)."

Just got back my Power Steering box from Firm Feel.

Went with the Stage III build

Got it back as they promised in just under 3 months.

[HPP]

Tend to agree with Mike DC, there is much more to this than just the box.

I bought my Firm Feel box back before they offered stages. It was just a Firm Feel box. When I swapped it in, I also changed the pump from stock to an aftermarket racing style that could fit in  the palm of your hand. I added  several degrees of caster and changed the steering wheel from the stock two spoke to a reproduction Tuff style. All of this combined with a 10" wide front tire means my Stage 1 box probably feels the same as someone else's Stage 3 box installed in a car with no other changes.

If you don't want to change all these things and you feel whatever stage box you had is still too soft, there is always the steering pump modification mentioned in here that will reduce pressure and, as a result, reduce assist to the box which increases effort.

[Kern Dog]

Just got back my Power Steering box from Firm Feel.

Went with the Stage III build

Got it back as they promised in just under 3 months.

THREE months? What the heck?

[472 R/T SE]

1 day at FF with my pump.

O yeah, I lived there, lol!