No politics... but seriously How long do you think we have left with these cars?

[Mike DC]

              

Well if a 16 y/o makes 15.00 a hour (if he chooses to work) everything else is going to go up too.

It's not 1965 anymore.  Low wages aren't just for teenagers now.  The whole world economy has changed and fewer high-paying jobs exist in the USA.  


BTW, if min wage had even kept pace with US dollar inflation (which is arguably understated) it would be about $10-11 now.  If min wage had kept pace with the USA's increasing productivity over the decades (if it had maintained the same slice of the pie, as the USA's pie got bigger) it would be $24 now.  

[stripedelete]

Unless anyone here has any ideas to explain HOW Dow valuations are at 31,000 after a YEAR of COVID ?

That's the easy one.   Interest rates are nothing.  Where else is the money going to go?

[Davtona]

  GM is already yammin to Washington about E.V. infrastructure for cars not built yet.

Let GM build their own EV infrastructure or they can pay to use the infrastructure built by other EV manufacturers. Why does the government have to do it for them. GM still technically owes the American tax payer 10.6 billion from their last bailout.

[Birdflu]

  GM is already yammin to Washington about E.V. infrastructure for cars not built yet.

Let GM build their own EV infrastructure or they can pay to use the infrastructure built by other EV manufacturers. Why does the government have to do it for them. GM still technically owes the American tax payer 10.6 billion from their last bailout.

[Mike DC]

    

Do you guys like having electricity & water & mail in rural areas?  

Infrastructure is what govt is for.  When you leave this stuff to private industry, they only build in the dense (profitable) areas and skip the rest.  They also charge more.  

This is our past history.  Utilities have been govt-controlled for the last couple generations because we figured out it was necessary.     

[Davtona]

   
Do you guys like having electricity & water & mail in rural areas?  

Infrastructure is what govt is for.  When you leave this stuff to private industry, they only build in the dense (profitable) areas and skip the rest.  They also charge more.  

This is our past history.  Utilities have been govt-controlled for the last couple generations because we figured out it was necessary. 
 

Yes I have my own private water well I drilled and paid for. My power is supplied by MidAmerican Energy which is owned by Berkshire Hathaway. There is a state regulatory board which oversees and regulates what they can charge however. My other water option would be a rural water coop which supplies water to the rural areas. Once again in no way built by the government.

Not sure what type of infrastructure we are talking about for EV's beyond charging stations. My point is other EV manufacturers I'll use Tesla as my example have invested heavily into charging stations to support the cars the sell. These were not built by the government. Over 20,000 charging stations world wide as of now. More being built all the time. This cost is part of the car manufacturers transition to EV's. How people charge their cars that they sell is up to them to solve. Either build your own network or work out a deal with the pioneers of the industry for them to allow you to use theirs. I personally think the convenience stores & truck stops at some point will get smart and provide the equipment for charging vehicles & tack on their upcharge for the electricity. Much the same as gas stations do now. The Midwest grocery chain Hy-Vee is already doing that. Think of the foot traffic these stores will get while cars are charging for a 1/2 hour. The government does not need to be involved in this and it's probably better if they aren't. Here is Tesla's current US network.

[Mike DC]

Not sure what type of infrastructure we are talking about for EV's beyond charging stations.

The whole power grid will need buildup for a widespread switch to EVs.  And we will need EV recharging access in some places that aren't profitable to build it.  


The govt doesn't need to build everything.  But it will probably need to steer the pricing & coverage.  

It took the rural electrification act in the 1930s to get the existing power grid where it is.  It was a govt jobs program to build infrastructure in areas where the industry deemed it unprofitable.  



In this century things might look a little different.  Instead of rural areas, it might be run-down ghetto areas of cities that don't get adequate EV coverage.  

We already have that problem with grocery stores leaving ghetto areas.  The stores are individually just doing what keeps them in business.  But when they all do it, society suffers.  

[HANDM]

Not sure what type of infrastructure we are talking about for EV's beyond charging stations.

The whole power grid will need buildup for a widespread switch to EVs.  And we will need EV recharging access in some places that aren't profitable to build it.  


The govt doesn't need to build everything.  But it will probably need to steer the pricing & coverage.  

It took the rural electrification act in the 1930s to get the existing power grid where it is.  It was a govt jobs program to build infrastructure in areas where the industry deemed it unprofitable.  



In this century things might look a little different.  Instead of rural areas, it might be run-down ghetto areas of cities that don't get adequate EV coverage.  

We already have that problem with grocery stores leaving ghetto areas.  The stores are individually just doing what keeps them in business.  But when they all do it, society suffers.  

And of course it's still around today costing taxpayers most likely billions a year...

Quote from an internet search
"Is the Rural Electrification Act still around?
The Rural Electrification Act of 1936, enacted on May 20, 1936, provided federal loans for the installation of electrical distribution systems to serve isolated rural areas of the United States. The funding was channeled through cooperative electric power companies, most of which still exist today."

[MoparMike68]

The REA made it possible for the federal government to deliver low-cost loans to farmers who had banded together to form non-profit collectives. The REA made brought electricity to rural America. Roosevelt began trying to get the bill passed on May 11, 1935. He created an executive order which established the REA.

The proposal called for an appropriation of $100 million per year for 10 years, amounting to $1 billion, and loans at an interest rate of three percent or less and repayable within 40 years. Only public cooperatives and municipalities would be eligible for REA loan

Quote:
And of it's still around today costing tax payers most likely billions a year...

These were low interest loans not grants and the REA was terminated on October 13, 1994, with the passage of the Federal Crop Insurance Reform and Department of Agriculture Reorganization Act of 1994. Its functions were absorbed into the newly-created Rural Utilities Service [9].

[MoparMike68]

 

[Davtona]

All infrastructure can have issues at one time or another. I've never heard of a wind turbine dumping 4.9 million barrels (210 million gallons) of oil into the Gulf of Mexico however.

       

[Mike DC]

                               
The Deepwater Horizon rig produced some incredible footage/pics as it went down. 

Our civilization has a talent for making industrial messes. 



   

[MoparMike68]

Quote,
All infrastructure can have issues at one time or another. I've never heard of a wind turbine dumping 4.9 million barrels (210 million gallons) of oil into the Gulf of Mexico however.

Fair enough but the disaster wasn't the point the assistance from fossil fuel was, therefore rendering the turbine
dependent.
EVs aren't the answer either we're building an infrastructure when the US doesn't even have the minerals too allow everyone
an EV, Strip mining is still happening and again we'll be dependent on foreign countries. We have enough natural gas and fossil fuel too be energy independent until we find a better source of energy, Nuclear perhaps, until then fossil fuels will coexist with electric. Other issues are EVs still aren't practical Subsidies are massive like a quarter of the cars worth in most occasions. Longevity in the battery life also an issue at upwards of five thousand for replacement that's problematic for the average American, But too think we're all electric in ten or twenty year's is a pipe dream. Speaking of pipes if the Keystone pipe line wasn't Shut down we probably could avoid some of those disasters in the future. 

[Mike DC]

EVs aren't the answer either we're building an infrastructure when the US doesn't even have the minerals too allow everyone
an EV, Strip mining is still happening and again we'll be dependent on foreign countries.

The US doesn't have the rare-earth minerals to build our electronics, either.  But nobody says that's an argument to avoid using electronics.  

We have enough natural gas and fossil fuel too be energy independent until we find a better source of energy, Nuclear perhaps, until then fossil fuels will coexist with electric.

FFs and "energy independence" don't go together.  Whatever FFs come out of the ground in the US, it all goes to the worldwide market.  The FFs that Americans buy & burn came from the worldwide market.  That's why we could be producing enough oil for the US public but we would still be invading foreign countries just to keep the worldwide market stabilized. 
 

Self-sufficient countries are not a thing in this century.  

[ACUDANUT]

  "The US doesn't have the rare-earth minerals to build our electronics, either.  But nobody says that's an argument to avoid using electronics "We do, but it lays on the ocean floor. We are being robbed by other countries like China and Russia harvestings our 90 mile boarder at sea, which these rare items lie "
Fact check.

[Mike DC]

"The US doesn't have the rare-earth minerals to build our electronics, either.  But nobody says that's an argument to avoid using electronics "We do, but it lays on the ocean floor. We are being robbed by other countries like China and Russia harvestings our 90 mile boarder at sea, which these rare items lie "
Fact check.

"China and Russia"?  Those are private companies, not the Chinese & Russian govts.  

Just like when US companies grab resources from within 90 miles of other countries (or from inside other countries).  We do it every day.


Then all these companies sell all these resources on the open market.  

[Davtona]

EVs aren't the answer either we're building an infrastructure when the US doesn't even have the minerals too allow everyone
an EV, Strip mining is still happening and again we'll be dependent on foreign countries. We have enough natural gas and fossil fuel too be energy independent until we find a better source of energy, Nuclear perhaps, until then fossil fuels will coexist with electric. Other issues are EVs still aren't practical Subsidies are massive like a quarter of the cars worth in most occasions. Longevity in the battery life also an issue at upwards of five thousand for replacement that's problematic for the average American, But too think we're all electric in ten or twenty year's is a pipe dream. Speaking of pipes if the Keystone pipe line wasn't Shut down we probably could avoid some of those disasters in the future.  

What minerals don't we have? I'm not 100% sure what all goes into a Lithium Ion battery and I have studied it somewhat. Lithium is fairly abundant. Nickel is the one in shortest supply believe.

As far as subsidies the first 200,000 vehicles by each auto maker were and are eligible are for a $7000 tax credit per a prior administration. General Motors and Tesla are the only two companies to so far have used that up. EV's are not subsidized nearly to the extent you are suggesting. The oil industry is subsidized as is the ethanol production industry. I'll let you look up their subsidies so you can find your own real numbers though.

Batteries (Tesla's anyway) are being touted now as having a 500k to a million mile service life with a 10 to 15% degradation in range at that time. Then they are recycled and it begins again. And yes they can be recycled. Fossil fuels cannot be. Todays batteries are not like the Toyota Prius batteries that needed replacing at 100k miles.  

[MoparMike68]

 

Quote,
FFs and "energy independence" don't go together.  Whatever FFs come out of the ground in the US, it all goes to the worldwide market.  The FFs that Americans buy & burn came from the worldwide market.  That's why we could be producing enough oil for the US public but we would still be invading foreign countries just to keep the worldwide market stabilized. 
 
"Energy independence" means in time of crisis and or war we can produce the energy needed without an outside source.
Quote,
Self-sufficient countries are not a thing in this century. 

That's a problem look what happened when we outsourced are Pharmaceuticals by 95% then Covid hit.
I believe the previous administration changed that so we would have to make now at least 40% in the US.

[MoparMike68]

Quote,
What minerals don't we have? I'm not 100% sure what all goes into a Lithium Ion battery and I have studied it somewhat. Lithium is fairly abundant. Nickel is the one in shortest supply believe.

Research from MIT suggests there's not enough ability to mine and process the material to meet demand. The research suggests that demand could reach 430,000 tonnes in the next decade, which is 1.6 times today's capacity. One solution could be finding an alternative to cobalt in EV batteries
See that "Strip Mining" just like coal not very eco friendly.


Quote,
As far as subsidies the first 200,000 vehicles by each auto maker were and are eligible are for a $7000 tax credit per a prior administration. General Motors and Tesla are the only two companies to so far have used that up. EV's are not subsidized nearly to the extent you are suggesting. The oil industry is subsidized as is the ethanol production industry. I'll let you look up their subsidies so you can find your own real numbers though.

A Tesla base model starts at 40,000  Without a credit people will continue to purchase Gas powered vehicles.
Also when I buy a gas powered vehicle nobody's giving me anything so how is ethanol even a factor.

[Mike DC]

              

A Tesla base model starts at 40,000  Without a credit people will continue to purchase Gas powered vehicles.

That's because people get an enormous 'credit' to buy IC vehicles & gas.  Always have, for generations.  

There is no big surcharge added to IC vehicles & gas to help cover the costs of the military/wars and climate damage.  All taxpayers are getting stuck with those costs, no matter what they drive or how much they drive it.

The IC/FF subsidy situation feels completely normal to people today.  We've never lived any other way.  But that doesn't change what it is.   

[MoparMike68]

 

https://www.foxbusiness.com/energy/texas-electric-grid-operator-says-frozen-wind-turbines-are-hampering-states-power-output-report

[Davtona]

Quote,

One solution could be finding an alternative to cobalt in EV batteries.

A Tesla base model starts at 40,000  Without a credit people will continue to purchase Gas powered vehicles.
Also when I buy a gas powered vehicle nobody's giving me anything so how is ethanol even a factor.

Tesla is doing away the Cobalt in their batteries. The you tube link is to Tesla's Battery Day event that was held on September 22, 2020. Somewhere in this 2 hour & 11 minute presentation Elon discusses this and how they are doing it. It gets a bit dry later on but I accept that I'm not on the same level as Elon on this. Good watch if you want to learn and have the time.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l6T9xIeZTds



Here is cost of the cheapest Model 3 Tesla from their web site tonight. 37k initially then followed with a cost of ownership reducing it to $33,690 when compared against a ICE vehicle's fuel costs.  84% of your estimate.

The Government's Ethanol subsidy is reflected in the price you pay at the pump. Without the subsidy your fuel cost goes up. Same with oil. Which makes the EV fuel saving even bigger. Remember EV's are in the 140 MPG range by comparison in price.

[Davtona]

https://www.foxbusiness.com/energy/texas-electric-grid-operator-says-frozen-wind-turbines-are-hampering-states-power-output-report

"Due to the severe weather and freezing temperatures across our state, many power companies have been unable to generate power, whether it's from coal, natural gas, or wind power," Abbott said


From your article. Sounds like more than just the wind turbines are having problems in this storm. I do commend Texas on the % of their power they produce with wind power and that they are one of the leading states in renewable energy. That's the best part of the article.

[MoparMike68]

Rolling blackouts from ND to TX have turned into lengthy power outages in freezing conditions
oil and gas are still reliable energy sources and renewables were just proven unsustainable and clearly unreliable.
When your the leader in renewables that means coal and natural gas are not their focus  
Last post on this topic.

[Mike DC]

 

Rolling blackouts from ND to TX have turned into lengthy power outages in freezing conditions
oil and gas are still reliable energy sources and renewables were just proven unsustainable and clearly unreliable.
Last post on this topic.

You say that as if renewables are some half-baked new experimental program.  Like it never occurred to anyone that weather exists and power output would vary.  As if wind turbines & solar cells haven't been used (successfully) for decades all over the world.

Extended rolling blackouts are a sign that our electrical grid needs infrastructure help in a bigger way.  Sticking to coal or nuclear sources won't fix a shitty grid.


Energy is not a team sport.  The US "wins" by making the best use of all available resources.