Tremec 5 speed swap into a '70 Charger

[Kern Dog]

Hey guys,
I finally made the decision to convert my automatic to a manual transmission. I've had this car since March 2000 and up until a couple of years ago, was happy leaving it as an automatic. I enjoy road trips though and as many of you know, having the traditional 3 speed automatic meant some sort of compromise. You either gear the axle for freeway driving and lose low speed acceleration or gear it deep for quick starts and then deal with 3500 rpms at 65 mph. Some just go with a 3.23 and have a car that is okay at all conditions.
Overdrives are one innovation that made modern cars more comfortable.  The car can be geared low enough for low speed grunt but then at freeway speeds, it can cruise at a lower rpm. The difference between 70 mph at 1800 rpms and 3000 rpms is more than just engine speed. Exhaust noise, fan noise, vibrations....they all step way down as the rpms decrease.
I had a Gear Vendors in the car for a couple of years but I pulled it out and sold it in 2014. I figured that someday, I'd come back to some type of overdrive automatic. I considered the 518 but the modifications to make one work seemed dicey. I'd still be stuck with that 2.45 1st gear too.
The Silver Sport Transmission A41 4 speed automatic was considered. It is a GM based transmission with a 3.06 first, a 1.62 2nd, 1.0 3rd and a .70 OD. The cost kept digging at me though. I am not really a cheap person, I just try to weigh my options to see if the money spent will ever be worth it to me. Looking at how little I drive the car, I couldn't justify the $6000 to just add ONE gear to an automatic transmission. My 727 works flawlessly. The gear ratio of 1st isn't so great but I wouldn't spend money to change it. To spend that kind of money, I wanted something that felt like a big change.
For the last few years, I have felt that the car is a little stale. By that, I mean that I needed to do something to reinvigorate my interest in the car. Some may recall about 5-6 years ago I posted about tearing the car apart to change the color to B5 blue. That is a DRASTIC change but I was seriously considering it. Money wasn't what stopped me, common sense did.
I bought another '70 Charger in Sept 2019. I have a thread on this forum about the build of that car...          http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,136013.0.html                           
My plan for that car includes B5 blue paint eventually. I am at an impasse with that car currently. The 383 is rebuilt and ready but I need all the transmission stuff to get the car running. The 727, converter, cooler and cooler lines, shift linkage, drive shaft and kickdown linkage.
Yeah....You probably know where I am going with this. The Tremec 5 speed swap will free up all the stuff to get "Jigsaw" running while giving "Ginger" the drastic change to get me excited about it again.

[Kern Dog]

This car is NOT a real R/T. It was built in December 1969 as an XP29 model, a Charger 500 with a 318, 904, 8 1/4 axle with 2.71 gears and 4 wheel 10" drum brakes.
Within my first three years, I swapped in a rebuilt 440, a used 727, 8 3/4 with 3.91 gears and front disc brakes. It was painted as you see here and has looked the same since then. I now have a 440/493 and a different 727 and 3.55 gears. I've made other small changes over the years but nothing huge.
I've only had 2 other 4 speed performance cars. One was a Duster with a 360 and an 833. The other was a slightly hopped up Camaro with a 350 and a Saginaw 4 speed. The Camaro was a really fun car. It cornered well, braked well and the 4 speed was a blast to use. The Duster....Well, I wish that I could say that it was a great car but I never really got the most out of it. I built the engine but used too much cam for the 8.2 compression, not enough axle gear and the transmission didn't shift or feel as good as the Saginaw in the Camaro.
I do enjoy a manual transmission though.
So, in December last year, I ordered the Tremec TKO600 transmission kit from Silver Sport Transmissions. I had a price quote in January 2019 for approx $6600 so I expected to see an increase in that time. SURPRISE! When I called last year, they were tooling up for some new Tremec transmission, the TKX or something. It has the same ratios as the TKO but in a smaller case for better fitment in some cars. It has internal mods to improve shifts over 6500 rpms too. I saw no need for either of those features and opted for the TKO.....which ended up lowering the price of the kit to $5978...SHIPPED!





 

[Kern Dog]

So here we go....
This one has a 2.87 1st, a 1.89 2nd, a 1.28 3rd. 1.0 4th and a .64 5th/OD. The kit comes with a hydraulic clutch with all the lines and clutch master cylinder. Brake and clutch pedals and pads, steel flywheel, "advanced friction" clutch kit, bell housing, crossmember and mount, boots, drive shaft and.....The famous PISTOL GRIP shifter!






   

[Kern Dog]

Before I do a project, I like to gather all the parts that I think I'll need so I can complete the job instead of having it sit unfinished while I wait for find stuff.
The Tremec kit was designed to put the shifter in the same location as the stock 4 speed. The cars with consoles used a different top plate for 4 speed versus automatic cars.
Going back to how I am trying to share parts with the Jigsaw car project.....
When I bought Jigsaw, the owner was in the process of clearing stuff out to sell the house and move from California to Alabama. When he left, he left behind some car parts that he said I could have. Among other things was a bare center console. It is bare...I mean no courtesy lights, no carpet trim, no top plates or anything. I would need all of that stuff for Jigsaw.
I made a deal with a member at FBBO and bought a set of well used Automatic trans console parts. The condition didn't matter because I had a change in mind.
Over this past year, I've looked at the woodgrain in my console and wondered why the designers chose it.

[Kern Dog]

Yeah, there was some fascination in the 60s and 70s with fake wood but most Chargers only had woodgrain on the console top. Every other interior surface was either textured plastic or vinyl unless the car was an SE model. I started to think that the woodgrain seemed out of place. I decided to skip the woodgrain and instead cover the center with textured plastic to match the sides of the console. The chrome segments of the console top plates will get painted satin black. To get the paint to stick, I needed to sandblast the parts. I bought a Harbor Freight blast cabinet and screwed it together last week.

[Kern Dog]

Word to the wise.....
The instructions included in these things SUCK. The pictures are as small as a postage stamp, the text isn't any help and the way the steps are outlined, its as if they were written for a person that has built these before. Just what you'd expect from Harbor Freight, right?
$189 though....a great price. I attached a vacuum to draw out the dust...

[Kern Dog]

I bought some glass beads and some # 80 Garnet. The beads did work but not great. A guy advised me to start with the glass to see if they would be adequate. He was concerned about other types being too aggressive and damaging the metal. The Garnet worked a LOT better though. These pictures show how much duller the parts look after two passes with beads and one with Garnet. After these pictures were taken, I made another pass over all the parts. Paint may lay onto chrome but will scratch off. To get the paint to stay, I needed to take off the shine. I'll spray them with etching primer then paint and a matte clear.

[Kern Dog]

The swap is not a simple job. There are a few steps that have to be done to get all the stuff in place and working properly.
I read a few threads, a few magazine articles, watched a few YouTube videos and read the instructions included in this kit. Everyone concurs that the first major step is to bolt on the flywheel and bell housing, then measure to see if the bell housing is in near perfect alignment with the center of the crankshaft. The bolts hold the bell housing in place but the dowels are responsible for the locating of the BH. It is the belief of many that the stock transmissions are far more tolerant of slight misalignment than the modern transmissions. The "runout" needs to be measured. The instructions allow the bell to be off center no more than .005 thousandths. Yeah, that is really tight!
To measure for runout, I needed to get a magnetic base dial indicator. I ordered one through Summit and it arrived today. If the measurements show a misalignment, the fix is to install offset dowels that will allow me to shift the bell housing in any direction that I need to get it within spec.
Before I rip into the project, I want to take another ride in the car, one last thrash with the automatic before the swap begins. I hope to have the 727 out by Sunday evening. Check back and see!

[XH29N0G]

KD,

Thanks for posting.  This will be a lot of fun to see come into focus.  I have a tremec (older model kit, but with an SST shifter that I modified to my taste (changed centering springs and made a short shift handle).  Being an older kit, mine had some issues with driveline angles and vibrations.  You may not have any of that.  And I hope not.  If you do, I will be happy to share the ways that I addressed the problems.  I have a feeling that you are more of a mechanic than I am so you may not need what I have to say, but know that I'll be happy to pipe in and will be watching and learning (even if I don't post a lot on your project thread) as you update.

[Kern Dog]

Thanks.
I have a buddy with a 69 Coronet R/T. It is an original track Pack car with a 3.54 Dana. He had a first generation Kiesler 5 speed. He went round and round trying to get the 2-3 shift to improve. He replaced the transmission with a TKO with the same ratios and loves it. The TKO comes in a wide ratio model with a 3.27 1st gear but I chose the closer ratio model like most others do.
DC.com member Derwud has a TKO in his '70. He posts in car videos of him driving around southern CA. He is quite happy with his.
I'm going to slip the 3.91s back in for some additional punch. In the .64 overdrive, it will be a final drive of 2.50, still quite good.
This new kit does require some floor cutting but no mods to the torsion bar crossmember. They have learned how to modify the case of the transmission to get it up higher in the tunnel to get a better driveline angle.
Along the way, I'm sure there will be a few detours where I see some unrelated thing that needs attention. This is a common occurrence with many projects. I may replace the carpet since this was one of the batches of carpet made in the early 2000s where they were often cut too narrow and short. After awhile, customers complained and nowadays, the carpet kits are about 3 inches longer and wider than needed. What I have now is narrow enough that the sill plates don't cover the edges entirely. Cheap carpet guys!

[BrianShaughnessy]

Congrats!     I converted Betty with a TKO back when it was Keisler.     I've been satisfied for the most part.  It made driving to Carlisle tolerable. 

I took out a 23 spline and gave it to friends to use on a project.   The car is a non numbers R/T that was original F8 440 / auto.   It was hacked up before I bought it....  just as well for me.

Frankly it's been so long seeing this stuff is like new again.    It was somewhere around $4K total...  but I have no idea where the receipts are.

I first tried running 3.54 gears and I wasn't happy cruising - in and out of 4th or 5th.    So I put in 3.73s -  much better.   I suspect the 3.91s you're planning will be similar.   

[Kern Dog]

Thank you.
I looked at what final drives would be. The 3.55s I have now would be a 2.27 final drive. An engine with any sort of non stock cam is going to run poorly at freeway speeds around 1400-1700 rpms. Gas mileage would probably be no different than if the engine were revving around 2000 and I suspect the throttle response would be less than stellar.

[Brass]

Good luck with the swap.  I'm glad you didn't change the color.  I'm mostly indifferent to red, but I think your car is particularly beautiful that way. 
Also, what did you dislike about the gear vendors?  I am thinking of going that direction and keeping the 3.23's for a final 2.519 on the highway.  The torque from my 508 seems to be enough to mitigate the compromise you speak of, but I guess more gearing would still be nice.

[Kern Dog]

The Gear Vendors unit I had was a first generation model.
It had no mount for the floor shifter so a bracket had to be made. It resulted in the vertical shift rod being out of whack and the shifter felt vague. The shift detents were messed up too. Either I was able to lock it in to Park but NOT get 1st or I could get 1st and it would slip out of Park.
The output of the GV was a yoke requiring a custom driveshaft like you'd see on the front of a 4wd truck. It was fine at low speeds but vibrated the faster I went.
It upshifted fine but would often stay stuck in OD and not disengage unless I shut the car off. This meant when I was at freeway speeds with the 3.91 OD and .78 OD, (Final drive of 3.05) When slowing to a stop, it stayed as a 3.05 gear making it sluggish from low speeds. If I wanted a 3.05 axle gear all the time, I would have just used a 2.94 diff.
The speedometer drive is at a strange angle. Looking from the rear, it is at a 10:30 angle...Pointing to the left and UP. This put the speedo cable in a constant bind since even with the floor dented for some clearance, it wasn't enough. 90 degree adapters are the fix but the tightwads at Gear Vendors refused to sell them, claiming they only produced them to be included with new units sold.
I have been told that the 2nd generation GV units addressed the shortcomings. Slip yoke output, shifter mount, improved electronics....Too late though. I wanted a more dramatic change for the car than just adding one gear. The .78 overdrive is an improvement but isn't that much when compared to the 518 at .69, the GM based 4L60E at .70 and the manual trans Tremec at .64.

[Brass]

Thanks for the input.  I'm sorry you experienced all that headache.  Man, things often seem to go that way whenever I try to do upgrades.  It's a pisser.

[Kern Dog]

The new ones are probably just fine. If a man wants a 4th gear without spending $6000, it is a decent way to go and easily reversible.

[Mike DC]

             
I'm surprised the aftermarket doesn't offer a decent manual-type over/under drive anymore.  A lot of the complications with GV overdrives is coming from the 'automatic' design of the thing.  The guys with manual transmissions already have a clutch so they could make use of a manual-type auxiliary 2spd box on the back.   

[BrianShaughnessy]

Thank you.
I looked at what final drives would be. The 3.55s I have now would be a 2.27 final drive. An engine with any sort of non stock cam is going to run poorly at freeway speeds around 1400-1700 rpms. Gas mileage would probably be no different than if the engine were revving around 2000 and I suspect the throttle response would be less than stellar.

IIRC in 5th I'm running 2000ish @ 60.    80 is about 2400.   

[XH29N0G]

I am running 4.30 with mine and I don't feel like I am pushing it at 70.  I did a calculation though and think it costs me at the drag strip because I think I am hitting my rev limiter in 4th with 27 in tires.  This is my mistake and inexperience.  I don't recall the RPM, but it works out nicely with my cam for 5th starting about 55 mph.  I can run a little lower, but it feels like it is lugging. I think the 3.91 ratio would work well, but I would check all the RPM and decide based on how you know your engine behaves.

[INTMD8]

You think you're hitting the rev limiter?  Easy enough to figure out for sure

[Kern Dog]

I had the car out today for what may may be the last time with the automatic.
I have a 3,55 gear, 28" tire and a NON lockup converter.
2800 rpms @ 60
3000 rpms @ 65
3200 rpms @ 70

[AKcharger]

Keep up the good work!

[Mike DC]

  
IMO muscle car guys tend to be unrealistic about modern traffic.  On many interstates the normal cruising speed is 75-80 mph.  

[Kern Dog]

I'll run my daily driver up to 80 sometimes on long trips. Most of the time I'm between 70 to 75.

[tan top]

lot of interesting stuff & good write up !
thats what i had originally planed for mine , converting it to a five speed manual ! but never going to happen now.
  like the idea of wood grain delete on the centre console !  never really liked the wood grain either ! thanks for sharing this stuff KD