572 Hemi

[geffen928]

Afternoon Gents......I need your advise on something.  I've always thought that I would buy my 572 Hemi from Indy Cylinder Heads.   That is until today.  I just had a conversation with the new owner.  He said some things that gave me cause for concern.   My goal is to have a very streetable big inch Hemi.  I want it to always start, run cool, idle, lots of torque vs. high RPM horsepower.    Here's what threw me regarding his comments to me.   I mentioned a hydraulic cam.  He said no hemi's were built with hydraulic cams, all were solid lifter.  He said his were all roller lifter engines that would require lash adjustment once a year.  Why can't we go with a hydraulic roller cam??  Next....I want to run a dual-plane single 4bbl intake.  I do not want a hood scoop.  He said there's only one intake that fits that criteria..the Mopar Performance single 4bbl dual plane.   Yet he advertises the Arlen Vanke manifold, it even says " Low Profile for hood clearance " in the advert.  Could this be true??  Lastly...I want to go with Holley Sniper Stealth EFI.  He said it would work but only to about 300hp.  Then he says that the Hemi is the least efficient engine built.  It only burns about 1/2 the fuel it's given.  That's why Top Fuel cars blow flames out the exhaust.  Really??  All this just seems off to me.   What are your thoughts??  who else would be a good source for a 572 Hemi.  Help.

Geffen

[histoy]

Have you talked to the folks at For Hemis Only in Ontario, Canada?   If not, check them out.

[INTMD8]

FHO and Barton seem to be commonly mentioned when someone is looking to buy a complete engine.

Probably best to call them and discuss your goals.

As for the rest, 426 hemi from the factory was originally solid flat tappet and changed to hydraulic flat tappet I believe in 1970.

Many have mentioned more issues with hydraulic roller in a Hemi vs other engines due to pushrod angularity. Probably more likely to bind the cup and also, it puts the pushrod cup -higher- in the engine so a lot of pushrod clearancing would need to be done.

The mech roller I put in mine had the same pushrod cup height as the hydro flat tappet that was in it so very minimal clearancing was needed, even with larger pushrods.

I don't think a throttle body efi setup (injectors in throttle body) always ends up working out great with a dual plane intake manifold.

I'm putting mine together with dual 4150 throttle bodies, Holley efi and port injection with Edelbrock intake. This keeps the overall height low.

Would think a 4500 throttle body would be needed on a 572 if you want only one and I don't think you would find any low profile intake manifolds for that.   

[Q5XX29]

Wow, very surprised to hear somebody at Indy is so very clueless. Do yourself a big favor and call Tim Banning at For Hemis Only (FHO) a call or email. Nobody knows stroker hemis better, although there are other good choices too. But I've bought a 572 Hemi and a 604 Hemi from Tim, and can't say enough good about the experience. He can build you a hydraulic lifter engine, but what you probably will end up with is a tight-lash small solid lifter setup, and honestly they need adjustment next to never once properly set.

[Challenger340]

Afternoon Gents......I need your advise on something.  I've always thought that I would buy my 572 Hemi from Indy Cylinder Heads.   That is until today.  I just had a conversation with the new owner.  He said some things that gave me cause for concern.   My goal is to have a very streetable big inch Hemi.  I want it to always start, run cool, idle, lots of torque vs. high RPM horsepower.    Here's what threw me regarding his comments to me.   I mentioned a hydraulic cam.  He said no hemi's were built with hydraulic cams, all were solid lifter.  He said his were all roller lifter engines that would require lash adjustment once a year.  Why can't we go with a hydraulic roller cam??  Next....I want to run a dual-plane single 4bbl intake.  I do not want a hood scoop.  He said there's only one intake that fits that criteria..the Mopar Performance single 4bbl dual plane.   Yet he advertises the Arlen Vanke manifold, it even says " Low Profile for hood clearance " in the advert.  Could this be true??  Lastly...I want to go with Holley Sniper Stealth EFI.  He said it would work but only to about 300hp.  Then he says that the Hemi is the least efficient engine built.  It only burns about 1/2 the fuel it's given.  That's why Top Fuel cars blow flames out the exhaust.  Really??  All this just seems off to me.   What are your thoughts??  who else would be a good source for a 572 Hemi.  Help.

Geffen

I've personally Machined and built Pump Gas 572 HEMI's for customer's at over 915 hp....and all are still running well many years later, so here are my thoughts from the other side

Sometimes it can be hard to read a customers understanding of what they want ?
What I mean is.... they may genuinely believe they know what they want ? but that doesn't necessarily mean they fully "understand" what they are asking for ? because basically.... well... and put bluntly intending no offense.... they lack the knowledge to understand what they are asking for ?

I believe a very streetable 572 HEMI in your eyes .... means something that you can get in, turn the key and fire right up, warm up lightly and basically drive away in...... yet just because it's a 572 HEMI it will also have Gobs of Torque anywhere you decide to stab the throttle, and have plenty of high rpm horsepower.

Just ONE factor to consider.... there are many, many more in your brief....
BIG Engines have BIG Heads
BIG Heads have low port velocity with small Cams.... therefore need somewhat proportional BIG Cams, ramps, and duration..... to introduce sufficient airflow to overcome the low velocity.
but then...
after we've worked around the Cam/Port Velocity issues with Hydraulics...
you....
then wish to RE-CCORK that Port Flow with a DUAL PLANE Single 4 FI System ?

You SEE what I'm getting at here ?
If YOU want to build your own Engine ?..... then by all means get after it !
But if you think you are going to tell any Pro's at HEMI's how to do their jobs ?.... or continually explain to you why YOUR vision is ill advised/educate you ?
just say'in....
That's probably why you experienced what you did at INDY ?


Call Ray Barton at RBRE Ray Barton Racing Engines or Tim at FHO.... let THEM decide best course of action based on your needs, and by all means ask a few questions.... but best just accept "yes or No" when presented without expecting them to impart/educate 40 years of experience to you in a phonecall, because honestly here.... it's mostly all stuff you will never understand anyways.

[geffen928]

Well....There's a lot to un-pack here.   Let me start by saying that I was not, REPEAT NOT, telling Indy how to build a motor.  In both my initial email and subsequent scheduled phone call I was VERY clear on what I wanted in an engine.  Mild manners, reliability, cool running, pump gas friendly, and of course plenty of power when asked for.  My questions arose from the manner in which Indy answered.  Yes, I mentioned a hydraulic cam.  I did NOT advise any specs on lift / duration / overlap / ramp specs, etc.  I did offer the needed data for HIM to pic those specs.  Car weight, converter stall speed, rear gear ratio, tire size, intended driving style.  What caused my concern regarding his cam comments was the fact he said that no Hemi was built with a hydraulic cam.  Everyone on this forum knows that's wrong.  Regarding intake manifold selection.  Indy's advertises ( both in magazines and on their web page ) the 572 Super Street...770HP, 700Torque.  Respectable numbers.  Again, in both my initial email and subsequent phone call I stated that everything needed to fit under a stock hood, no hood scoop.  In MY opinion scoops don't look right on a Charger hood.  This Super Street engine uses a dual quad single plane manifold....THAT REQUIRES A HOOD SCOOP.  I ask him about the Arlen Vanke intake that again HE advertises as a LOW PROFILE FOR HOOD CLEARANCE dual plane single 4bbl.  In addition to that, HIS advertisement states that it makes 50 MORE HP that the dual quad single plane that comes standard on the Super Street engine.  At this point in the conversation he states that the Arlen Vanke manifold WILL NOT work with the stock hood.  He states that the only dual plane single carb manifold that works with a stock hood is the now out of production Mopar Performance manifold.  He advised me to look on EBAY.....I did.  I found one new in the box.  I bought it based on HIS recommendation.  All that to say this.....I'm not sure where your reading that I'M trying to tell engine builders how to build this engine.   I am telling engine builders how the engine will be used, what type of car it will be installed in and the constraints of that installation.  I'll follow any / all advise that makes sense.  And if it doesn't make sense to me, I'll reach out to others on forums seeking advise.  Finally.....I belong to many forums covering a wide range of interests.  There is always a common denominator within each forum.  There's always " that guy " Based on how you answered this question and my question regarding the MP manifold....You have just self-identified as " that guy "

Best,  Geffen

[cdr]

Well....There's a lot to un-pack here.   Let me start by saying that I was not, REPEAT NOT, telling Indy how to build a motor.  In both my initial email and subsequent scheduled phone call I was VERY clear on what I wanted in an engine.  Mild manners, reliability, cool running, pump gas friendly, and of course plenty of power when asked for.  My questions arose from the manner in which Indy answered.  Yes, I mentioned a hydraulic cam.  I did NOT advise any specs on lift / duration / overlap / ramp specs, etc.  I did offer the needed data for HIM to pic those specs.  Car weight, converter stall speed, rear gear ratio, tire size, intended driving style.  What caused my concern regarding his cam comments was the fact he said that no Hemi was built with a hydraulic cam.  Everyone on this forum knows that's wrong.  Regarding intake manifold selection.  Indy's advertises ( both in magazines and on their web page ) the 572 Super Street...770HP, 700Torque.  Respectable numbers.  Again, in both my initial email and subsequent phone call I stated that everything needed to fit under a stock hood, no hood scoop.  In MY opinion scoops don't look right on a Charger hood.  This Super Street engine uses a dual quad single plane manifold....THAT REQUIRES A HOOD SCOOP.  I ask him about the Arlen Vanke intake that again HE advertises as a LOW PROFILE FOR HOOD CLEARANCE dual plane single 4bbl.  In addition to that, HIS advertisement states that it makes 50 MORE HP that the dual quad single plane that comes standard on the Super Street engine.  At this point in the conversation he states that the Arlen Vanke manifold WILL NOT work with the stock hood.  He states that the only dual plane single carb manifold that works with a stock hood is the now out of production Mopar Performance manifold.  He advised me to look on EBAY.....I did.  I found one new in the box.  I bought it based on HIS recommendation.  All that to say this.....I'm not sure where your reading that I'M trying to tell engine builders how to build this engine.   I am telling engine builders how the engine will be used, what type of car it will be installed in and the constraints of that installation.  I'll follow any / all advise that makes sense.  And if it doesn't make sense to me, I'll reach out to others on forums seeking advise.  Finally.....I belong to many forums covering a wide range of interests.  There is always a common denominator within each forum.  There's always " that guy " Based on how you answered this question and my question regarding the MP manifold....You have just self-identified as " that guy "

Best,  Geffen

WELL That guy!!!!Challenger340 Bob KNOWS what he is talking about, he is NO ROOKIE , CLEARLY you know more than Indy OR Bob, I wish you luck

[geffen928]

Sir.....Please read what I wrote.  I don't know more that these guys.  What I do know the questions that I asked and how they were answered.   My " that guy " comment is pointed not at his knowledge....It's pointed at the manner in which he answers question that are asked in a respectful manner.   This is a FORUM.  By definition that's a group of people seeking to tap into the knowledge base within the group.  There's no need to tell someone that they'll never be able to understand something.  When we're talking about writing a check for 25K or more for an engine.....I think that buys some question time on the front end of the deal.

Best,

Geffen

[XH29N0G]

Geffen,

First, let me say, I think your response is fair, and I see how those comments can rub the wrong way. However, from past experience on this forum, I do not read them as hostile. You just ran into the 'direct' or 'blunt' style that some folks have.  The people who responded are the ones I pay attention to. The information is good and I urge you to continue asking your questions and asking for clarification. 

[INTMD8]

As mentioned, the intake you bought and that throttle body setup will choke a 572.  (and again may have distribution issues with a dual plane intake)

For your power and hood clearance goals which were similar to mine, I would do as I am doing. 

The Edelbrock 75245 intake is the same "carb" spacing and height/angle as an original hemi intake. With dual 4150 throttle bodies (that typically have less overall height than carbs) it can feed that 572 and fit under a stock hood no problem.

They have been on backorder for a long time so I bought a 7524 and drilled it for injectors, bought blank rails and drilled those too.

I did have the edelbrock 35670 (complete EFI system) on order but cancelled and bought everything in pieces as it was also on backorder for over a year.  I recently received an email stating they had those systems back in stock but since I never got mine, have no experience with it.

Stage V intake is also good but has a wider carb/TB spacing, I think slightly taller and not an air gap. (air gap is nice for running wiring/etc).

No benefit to running a single throttle body with EFI, you aren't going to pick up any tuning simplicity like you would if it was dual carbs. (which really aren't hard to tune either)

You can also buy an air cleaner base with larger openings for newer carbs/throttle bodies and still run a chrome dome if you want. This is what I have but not sure how restrictive it will be (or not).

I wouldn't run a hydraulic roller on it but best to talk that over with whoever builds it.

[Challenger340]

Look.... sorry if I was a little hard on you, but the intent is genuine in preventing once again the old addage about "fools and their MONEY are soon parted" happening once again ?
Because in my experience....
I've seen many first timers who end up spending where-ever they HEARD what it was they WANTED to HEAR ?.... rather than what they NEEDED to HEAR ?

Mainly because as I said having seen this conversation many times before from the other side....
you comments about your INDY conversation are just a little too familiar when people assert a TON of basically irrelevant things about their "fantasy" engine and when we try answering to the best of abilities so they can understand ? a bunch gets LOST in translation ?

I would really like to hear from INDY their side of your conversation ?
because...
There is what YOU heard and related here....
and,
there is going to be what INDY was actually trying to explain to you... that may.... or may NOT have been related accurately by you ? (unintentionally from lack of experience of course)

IMO...
I just don't believe there are that many 'dummies' out there still building $40K HEMI's anymore these days ?   Even INDY ?
I believe they were probably trying to steer you in the right direction.... you just didn't "hear" because it wasn't what you had pre-conceived notions of what you WANTED to Hear ?

Anyways.... Good Luck, Call Barton or Banning, try to slow down..... and make good decisions OK ?

[geffen928]

No worries.....I'm good with everybody that answered.  I've got a quote coming from Indy and I'll reach out to FHO and Ray Barton.  We'll see what they have to say.  The problem with online forums is that answers come in the written word, not the spoken word.  A lot can be lost between the two.  My best to everybody and I an thankful for the advise.

Geffen

[c00nhunterjoe]

People are scared of solid cams. The age old myth of weekly adjustments still plague every conversation i have with people about them. Put a good set of rockers on it- set it and forget it. IF the lash opens up- you have serious problems and metal is missing from somewhere. Apples to apples the solid makes considerably more power then a hydraulic every day of the week and is more stable at rpm. Ive got insane spring pressure on the superstock 426 and i check the lash yearly. Since 2009 it has not needed an adjustment.