What it's like to be F@#$% by a bodyshop - Rant/warning/advice

[charger500440]

Sorry to see that these things are still happening to people. I've been an auto damage appraiser and/or manager for nearly 25 years. Over the years I've gotten to know a lot of body shop owners, managers and technicians. Some honest, some not. Some very skilled, and some not so much. Here are a few things to keep in mind when selecting a shop to do body and paint work on a classic car:

- Most "quality" body shop owners will turn restoration work away (especially if there is any rust repair)
- Try to find a shop where the owner appreciates your car the way you do (not as easy to find as you might think)
- Insurance work pays $50 - $65 per labor hour for standard body/paint work (depending on where you live)
- If the price quoted seems too good to pass up - pass (the shop will keep pushing your car aside when other, more lucrative jobs come in the door)
- Most body shop technicians hate working on old cars (they're not used to it and they won't make as much money if they're paid flat rate)

Perhaps most important to remember, the shop owner should realize right away that you are going to scrutinize their work very closely. Just as most shops would never paint a tank for a Harley owner, knowing any spec of dust will create a headache and a re-work for the shop - they will expect the same scrutiny from you. The smart body shop owners will simply say "sorry man, I'm just too busy to take this work on right now". A nice way of saying, thanks but I'll pass.

All that said, there are shops that like this work and appreciate the cars the way we do. They're often not the first shops you'd think of to bring your car to. But, that's how it goes. The nice big, clean repair shops focus on insurance work and they're good at it. A restoration project, to them, is a money loser and a fly in the ointment. Fixing a wrecked Camry and restoring a 1970 Charger require similar skills and equipment but the work is still vastly different. The thing to remember is the Camry owner needs the car to go to work and the insurance company is threatening to cut off the owners rental if teh shop doesn't complete the repair soon. Your car is essentially a toy and will get pushed aside (again and again).

Best advice of all, find some car guys in your area and get some references. I'm always amazed that the shops that do nice work on older cars are not the ones I deal with very often for insurance claims.

Hope that helps. Best of luck...

[MoparMike68]

Sorry to see that these things are still happening to people. I've been an auto damage appraiser and/or manager for nearly 25 years. Over the years I've gotten to know a lot of body shop owners, managers and technicians. Some honest, some not. Some very skilled, and some not so much. Here are a few things to keep in mind when selecting a shop to do body and paint work on a classic car:

- Most "quality" body shop owners will turn restoration work away (especially if there is any rust repair)
- Try to find a shop where the owner appreciates your car the way you do (not as easy to find as you might think)
- Insurance work pays $50 - $65 per labor hour for standard body/paint work (depending on where you live)
- If the price quoted seems too good to pass up - pass (the shop will keep pushing your car aside when other, more lucrative jobs come in the door)
- Most body shop technicians hate working on old cars (they're not used to it and they won't make as much money if they're paid flat rate)

Perhaps most important to remember, the shop owner should realize right away that you are going to scrutinize their work very closely. Just as most shops would never paint a tank for a Harley owner, knowing any spec of dust will create a headache and a re-work for the shop - they will expect the same scrutiny from you. The smart body shop owners will simply say "sorry man, I'm just too busy to take this work on right now". A nice way of saying, thanks but I'll pass.

All that said, there are shops that like this work and appreciate the cars the way we do. They're often not the first shops you'd think of to bring your car to. But, that's how it goes. The nice big, clean repair shops focus on insurance work and they're good at it. A restoration project, to them, is a money loser and a fly in the ointment. Fixing a wrecked Camry and restoring a 1970 Charger require similar skills and equipment but the work is still vastly different. The thing to remember is the Camry owner needs the car to go to work and the insurance company is threatening to cut off the owners rental if teh shop doesn't complete the repair soon. Your car is essentially a toy and will get pushed aside (again and again).

Best advice of all, find some car guys in your area and get some references. I'm always amazed that the shops that do nice work on older cars are not the ones I deal with very often for insurance claims.

Hope that helps. Best of luck...

Again and again Word of mouth is the best advice 

[Mike DC]

Any shop that is doing classic car resto work, and isn't losing money on it, is either botching the work and/or charging HUGE rates.   It's inherently a money-losing task.

[c00nhunterjoe]

Any shop that is doing classic car resto work, and isn't losing money on it, is either botching the work and/or charging HUGE rates.   It's inherently a money-losing task.

This.  Same goes for mechanical work. You dont make money working on classics.

[MoparMike68]

Any shop that is doing classic car resto work, and isn't losing money on it, is either botching the work and/or charging HUGE rates.   It's inherently a money-losing task.

This.  Same goes for mechanical work. You dont make money working on classics.

Go on to explain this, What's huge rates?  Why can't someone make money working on classic cars?
If a shop owner has a set hourly rate that's the rate needed to sustain their business much like employees that make
an hourly rate to sustain their livelihood.

[cdr]

Any shop that is doing classic car resto work, and isn't losing money on it, is either botching the work and/or charging HUGE rates.   It's inherently a money-losing task.

This.  Same goes for mechanical work. You dont make money working on classics.

Go on to explain this, What's huge rates?  Why can't someone make money working on classic cars?
If a shop owner has a set hourly rate that's the rate needed to sustain their business much like employees that make
an hourly rate to sustain their livelihood.

Because PEOPLE DONT want to pay for quality work.

[ACUDANUT]

If the customer is willing to pay the shop hourly labor rate, how can the owner of a shop lose money. This makes zero sense.

[MoparMike68]

Because PEOPLE DONT want to pay for quality work.
[/quote]
So true, you get what you pay for, most of the time.

[Mike DC]

          

If the customer is willing to pay the shop hourly labor rate, how can the owner of a shop lose money. This makes zero sense.

Go ask 30 reputable collision shops.  They will all tell you that classic restos are money-losers.  

They aren't all lying.  It's not a conspiracy.  


The true number of labor-hours that resto work requires is atrocious.  And the number usually grows higher than it looked originally during the estimate.  Most customers wouldn't want to pay it.  It's hard to explain to a customer (or a judge) why they are charging a higher price to mount a panel on a classic car than they have charged on a hundred other modern cars, and then the price went even higher still before it was finished.  

The shops end up compromising on the labor figure (read: losing money) just to avoid having the customer get furious, maybe refuse to pay, or be unable to pay, or maybe take them to court.  It's less of a PITA to keep the bill lower and get their money without a risking a battle over it.  And trying to bargain with the customer isn't a solution either.  The customer comes away saying "That ripoff shop asked me for $10k for that job!  When I threatened to fight it they immediately lowered it to $7k!  What a bunch of cons!"  No, the shop pretty much has to pick a price number for the bill and stick with it.    

Most people simply won't (or cannot) pay a skilled pro for every hour that he will have to spend on a classic.  

[charger500440]

If the customer is willing to pay the shop hourly labor rate, how can the owner of a shop lose money. This makes zero sense.

This is tough to answer without seeing the shops books. But, I can shed some light on what "hourly rate" actually means. In the collision/insurance world, shops beat the hourly rate paid by insurance carriers by at least 2:1. For example, an insurer may pay 3.5 hours to paint and clear a bumper cover but there is no way the painter is going to actually take 3.5 hours. The shop got paid roughly $175 (3.5 x $50) but the technician probably did that work in 1.5 hours or so at worst (equating to $116/hr). Plus, he's likely working on 4-6 vehicles simultaneously - increasing the shop's efficiency even more. This is how the shops make money despite the relatively "low" hourly rate.

Explaining this to customers is nearly impossible. Customers will ask why the body rate is so low when the service department rate is 3-4 times higher. Even my plumber charged me twice that much. Yes, but the plumber charged you $175 for the hour and 15 minutes he worked on your house. Does the collision/insurance system make much sense? No, but it does work.

For a collision shop to mix in restoration work upsets the shop tremendously, creating a situation where the old car gets pushed outside to make room for more efficient (and time sensitive) repairs. The last remaining obstacle to all this is the shop owner's inability to price the job correctly up front. Because they don't do this work often, they usually under-estimate the work needed (don't we all?). This leads to the nightmare scenario's we've all heard stories about. Shop is halfway through the work, is asking for thousands more and is now holding the vehicle hostage.

For me, I would love to see how a restoration shop actually functions and makes money. I can't imagine what a shop would charge me to restore my Charger. Being an appraiser, I just can't see how any vehicle worth under $100K can be restored professionally without losing a ton of money...

[Mike DC]

           

I can't imagine what a shop would charge me to restore my Charger. Being an appraiser, I just can't see how any vehicle worth under $100K can be restored professionally without losing a ton of money...

That's the point.  It can't.   Restos are normally money-losers unless there is a rare VIN number. 


Resto work is hand-building a car.  If hand-building cars was affordable then the OEMs wouldn't be using assembly lines. 

           

[ACUDANUT]

"Because PEOPLE DONT want to pay for quality work"

Well I guess our hobby is done. 

[MoparMike68]

         

If the customer is willing to pay the shop hourly labor rate, how can the owner of a shop lose money. This makes zero sense.

Go ask 30 reputable collision shops.  They will all tell you that classic restos are money-losers.  

They aren't all lying.  It's not a conspiracy.  


The true number of labor-hours that resto work requires is atrocious.  And the number usually grows higher than it looked originally during the estimate.  Most customers wouldn't want to pay it.  It's hard to explain to a customer (or a judge) why they are charging a higher price to mount a panel on a classic car than they have charged on a hundred other modern cars, and then the price went even higher still before it was finished.  

The shops end up compromising on the labor figure (read: losing money) just to avoid having the customer get furious, maybe refuse to pay, or be unable to pay, or maybe take them to court.  It's less of a PITA to keep the bill lower and get their money without a risking a battle over it.  And trying to bargain with the customer isn't a solution either.  The customer comes away saying "That ripoff shop asked me for $10k for that job!  When I threatened to fight it they immediately lowered it to $7k!  What a bunch of cons!"  No, the shop pretty much has to pick a price number for the bill and stick with it.    

Most people simply won't (or cannot) pay a skilled pro for every hour that he will have to spend on a classic.  

None of this is true, a collision shop is not a restoration shop even if you ask 31 of them and they are money losers
For the customer only. People should know "It costs more to restore". 
Also most restoration shop's are pay as you go and if you can't you take and go. 
The fact that most won't pay is exactly why they shouldn't be in an unaffordable hobby in the first place, there are people that
don't have a problem with paying for quality work, and that can only be found word of mouth. Reviews are the broke people
that expect the same quality at a discounted price and need to realize that highly skilled individuals with lots of experience
don't work cheap because it takes many years to develop some skills and be really good at it.

[Mike DC]

None of this is true, a collision shop is not a restoration shop even if you ask 31 of them and they are money losers
For the customer only. People should know "It costs more to restore".  yesnod
Also most restoration shop's are pay as you go and if you can't you take and go.  lol
The fact that most won't pay is exactly why they shouldn't be in an unaffordable hobby in the first place, there are people that
don't have a problem with paying for quality work, and that can only be found word of mouth. Reviews are the broke people
that expect the same quality at a discounted price and need to realize that highly skilled individuals with lots of experience
don't work cheap because it takes many years to develop some skills and be really good at it.

Yeah, there are dedicated 'resto' and 'collision' shops.  But there is often overlap between them too.  They are similar operations.  Many resto shops do collision work to help pay the bills.  Etc.    

Most old cars cannot be restored at a profit.  That's not news.  And for most guys it's not a reason to quit the muscle car hobby.  If you demand that your hobby always has to make a profit then it's not really a hobby, it's a business.  This hobby exists because a lot of guys are willing to lose money restoring cars because they love them.  

   

[MoparMike68]

Quote,
Yeah, there are dedicated 'resto' and 'collision' shops.  But there is often overlap between them too.  They are similar operations.  Many resto shops do collision work to help pay the bills.  Etc.    

That's up for debate, maybe the hack shop's Take collision work but none I've come across.
Body shops don't want restoration work and I think the same goes for resto shops, The shops I've visited were all busy with
muscle cars restoring and maintenance. In fact there's was a waiting list in each of them. Also the more employees and overhead
the hourly rate was higher.

Quote,
Most old cars cannot be restored at a profit.  That's not news.  And for most guys it's not a reason to quit the muscle car hobby.  If you demand that your hobby always has to make a profit then it's not really a hobby, it's a business.  This hobby exists because a lot of guys are willing to lose money restoring cars because they love them.  

No argument there, or lose of money, lots of money   

   

[hemi-hampton]

Being in the Resto Business for 35 years lots of stuff I was going to say but some of you nailed it pretty good while some are clueless. A Resto always takes much more time & Money then the Customer expects. Most Resto Shops I know do not charge Time & Material A.K.A. Hourly because most Customers don't want to pay hourly. Plus every Customer will say I don't want no Show Car & don't want to pay the big bucks for a Show Car. BUT, Once car is done they nit pick at every little micro flaw & pissed off it's not a show car. I've seen Tons of Resto Shops in my area come & go over past 35 years. Sure, Some promise the Customers everything they want to hear, how fast & cheap they'll get it done & you'll love it. The Shop is flooded with tons of cars for the first couple years. BUT, 5 years later where are they? Closed up & gone. Seen it lots of times. I got more I could say but many people would just get pissed off. LEON.

[chargerperson]

I know of at least one restoration only shop that is doing well, the one where I had my car done.

In the New York City area there is enough customers willing to pay for quality work.  Shop only does restorations plus an occasion bit of collision work on a classic car - I have seen them do 3 classic collision repairs in 6 years. 

They did my car in 15 months

https://www.premierresto.com/

My car restoration
https://www.premierresto.com/1967-charger

[Kern Dog]

Plus every Customer will say I don't want no Show Car & don't want to pay the big bucks for a Show Car. BUT, Once car is done they nit pick at every little micro flaw & pissed off it's not a show car.

I have seen this as well.

[Mike DC]

        

I have seen this as well.

Yeah, pretty much.  "I don't want a show car, I just want a car without any flaws."  

[MoparMike68]

Being in the Resto Business for 35 years lots of stuff I was going to say but some of you nailed it pretty good while some are clueless. A Resto always takes much more time & Money then the Customer expects. Most Resto Shops I know do not charge Time & Material A.K.A. Hourly because most Customers don't want to pay hourly. Plus every Customer will say I don't want no Show Car & don't want to pay the big bucks for a Show Car. BUT, Once car is done they nit pick at every little micro flaw & pissed off it's not a show car. I've seen Tons of Resto Shops in my area come & go over past 35 years. Sure, Some promise the Customers everything they want to hear, how fast & cheap they'll get it done & you'll love it. The Shop is flooded with tons of cars for the first couple years. BUT, 5 years later where are they? Closed up & gone. Seen it lots of times. I got more I could say but many people would just get pissed off. LEON.

In NJ my area the shop's I've visited we're all in business for 30+ years and all charge hourly and are very much busy with that
system in place none of them take any work other then classic muscle cars. Your area may be different, but I do agree
with the "I don't want a show car"...hey that's not show quality 
I did find that all of them complained talent was hard to come by and they would like to have more skilled technicians.
Today it's easy to research how long the shop's been in business if you go to one in a city that just opened good luck with that.
According to your formula look for shops with five or more years in business 

[greycharger]

Was with a friend at a GMC dealership in the early 80's. There was a new Sprint on the showroom floor and I looked it over. It caught my attention when I walked by because the orange peel of the paint snagged my shirt tail. It was shinny, but I was amazed at the imperfections in metal and paint. Somebody bought it and I'm sure they thought it was a beauty.

Then I thought about how everybody behaves when a buddy gets a car fresh from the body shop. They get back and down on one knee so they can look down the side. "Oh! there's a speck of dust" or "I see a sanding scratch".
For a job that was done on budget, they are critiquing the work as no one ever does with a brand new car. I do it too, but only as a way to learn, and avoid someone else's "mistake", or learn something from their success. 

[Kern Dog]

I have found that the better a car looks, the more that some people look for flaws. If you have a car that looks "okay" at first glance, sometimes people just accept that it isn't perfect and just move on.
When the car looks much better, they do look closer. Maybe it is just part of our nature to look for flaws.
Looking at women online, that sure rings true. You see a beautiful woman and often think....Her butt is too big, her eyes are too close together or some stupid thing like that.

[ACUDANUT]

KD, or she has a black mole next to her catcher's mitt. 

[MoparMike68]

 

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=sJTaHBB78f4

[greycharger]

Saw an ad on the Denver CL. Body shop will work on cars for $55 per hour. Okay. They had a bunch of photos, so I emailed them. I have a 66 Charger that needs two quarters installed. Have quarters cut off another car, no rust repair, just a replacement.
They responded 22 to 26 hours, ready for paint.  @ $1,200?