What it's like to be F@#$% by a bodyshop - Rant/warning/advice

[AKcharger]

The main purpose of this Forum is to learn about ALL aspects of our hobby hence why I'm sharing this embarrassing/humiliating story.  I've been here since 2003 and I've seen the misfortunes of others I STILL allowed myself to be screwed. So sit back, relax and enjoy my misadventure  

I purchased my most recent Charger in San Diego CA, end of Aug and it arrived in Fl on the Sept. 7th. A rock-solid all-original car and no rust...I was thrilled! The paint was fair, but suffered from 50 years of dents and dings and needed some love.  I had most of Sept and Oct. off and wanted to "hit it hard and fast." I wasn't going to pull engine & vinyl top was still good just needed dents, scuff, paint, as HLPAG would say an "easy do." The 3 "reputable" shops I visited couldn't touch it till 2021 so I found Mr. "X" on craigslist ( I know, I know) he had a convincing story, retired body shop owner from N.Y. moved to fl, has spare time loves old cars blah blah...more import said my car would be the only car he would work and he could finish it in a few weeks (Nov latest if there were problems) He said I was welcome to come to the shop and assist and boasted how I'd get picture of every step in the process along with daily updates. Ok, my "spidy senses" tried to tingle during our discussion when I asked what his shop rates were up in Long Island. He hesitantly said "oh $30-45...really I price by the job." My senses tried again to tingle as he described the high-end vehicles, he worked, However, I comforted myself by contacting a former customer, seeing samples of his work and inspecting his shop, all looked legit. In addition I ran the numbers and it made sense to me: $6500 = bodywork block sanding - $2000, Materials - $1000, actual paint/sand/buff - 2000 and profit - $1500, so it passed the 'looks right test".  We signed contract for $6500 and I delivered car next day along with $1000 deposit. Most people are lured to scammers by low cost, for me it was TIME. This guy doing the paint/body while I did odd and ends was perfect! I ignored the warning signs because of time...regardless of the reason LISTEN TO YOUR GUT!!!

- Sept. 16 car delivered and I assisted in total strip of parts from car, (I took ALL parts home...just in case)it was a good start but did find the dreaded rear window rust but I was kind of expecting that
- "Spidey senses" (SS) tingle a bit when I hear him say "he likes to let bondo cure over night before working it" and story's he told while we're working seem a bit outlandish like a millionaire who paid him $1000 a week to wash his 5 cars and drive them around
- SS tingle more when I catch him lying about a repair on my fender, he said he welded two 2 holes in fender but I found only bondo also he was unaware you can warp a metal panel by a running a Stright bead of weld...an experienced body man should know that.  In addition, He was "not comfortable" with doing a window channel rust repair, I had to contract that out and assist/advice welder
- SS senses painful now as my car isn't being worked and I see other cars in shop and hear B.S. stories about all the hours of work he's put in on my car but I can tell it's not being touched
- Since vinyl top is off I asked him to spray roof trunk pan and under the hood, wants additional $600 which I pay...$600 isn't right. I'm now being stabbed repeatedly and screamed at by "Spidey Senses" and becoming VERY uncomfortable
-  Last time I was there on Oct 7th I was working the rear window repair and the whole day he did nothing but talk on phone...so I decide if car has not been worked, I'm going to pull it out and do it myself.
- Now luckily I'm super smart...well, I guess not that smart if your reading this...but I like to think I am!    Anyway I figure there is a 5% chance he could go nuts so I do my homework and dig into the FL Statues. I find 10 Violations of vehicle consumer law including one expressed statue that owner could NOT deny me my vehicle...clear as day. I prepare a letter for deputies, should they need to be called with references to statues along with receipts, title  ect. but of course that's not gonna happen
- Sept 12th drop by shop and indeed car has not been touched since last time I was there. I tell him "no hard feelings but I have a wrecker coming get car and I'll finish it myself" I walk out to confirm arrival or wrecker and when I turn to go back in  the door in locked and Mr. X is in his car with windows rolled up. I repeated attempt to talk to him and Im ignored.  I call sheriff's deputies as Mr. X drives off, well, at least I'm prepared, or so I think
- I wait for deputies...walk around a bit, nothing else to do, shortly after Mr. X returns and demands I leave his property as he  "watched me try and break in and I was trespassing" I respond for him to "call the police" and I sit and wait.
- Mr. X claims I owe him way more than $1600...I ask him five times for a bill or invoice to show support for additional amount, he refuses.
- Mr. X's 270lb Brother in law "Y" arrives, I call cops again and tell them its escalating (Y works at shop sometimes and we get along ok so it's not bad, in fact he assumes role of "Hostage negator")
- Sheriff's deputies arrive and I explain my case and provide what I think is ROCK-SOLD support to get my car...Not so much, they call their supervisor and say it's a civil matter and Mr. X doesn't have to release car.
- BUT LOOK...RIGHT THERE IS THE STATUE....HES BREAKING THE LAW...HE CANT DO THAT!!!!!!!!!!!!!! nope, civil matter just a deer in the headlight look for deputies
- Knowing now I have to pay him whatever he wants, he now determines I owe and additional $3000...$4600 total.

OK, so I have two choices I can do the "right" thing and immediately hire an attorney, file suit, get a court date then get car back sometime in the future or grab my ankles and pay him whatever he wants. Unfortunately I've seen this before right here on this forum where people get in this situation and during wait for court the shop closes, dirtbag disappears and car and any parts left at shop vanishes never to be seen again. So what did I do...glad you asked, lets get back to our amusing story!!

- I want my car....fine I'll pay! again, I like to think I'm smart and figured this incredibly remote possibility might happen so I have my check book and start to write out check with Deputies there..."NO, CASH ONLY" says Mr. X   even though they're useless I don't want to the deputies to leave till my car is on a flatbed
- No choice, have to go to bank and find banks closed, Oct. 12th Columbus day   we agree on 10 am the next day
- a completely sleepless night as I mentally run though what happened...what could happen and everything in between
- Oct 13th...Happy Birthday to me BTW...act 2 of this S#!& show begins and I call Sheriff's office at 0840 on and ask "civil standby" as I was all alone with no witness with a bunch of cash in a remote industrial park. Not surprisingly I was told they don't do that, I was on my own
- I arrive at shop in the morning with $3500 in cash (extra $500 if he wanted more), tail between my legs and super kind an apologetic. He makes me wait outside about 15 minutes while he's "busy" then when he comes out I begin by saying "Mr. X I could have handled things differently yesterday and I apologize for causing such drama" I explain all I want is to get this behind us. He seems satisfied at my acknowledged defeat/submission and  with Mr. Y there as his witness I hand over money.
- He moves the 2 project cars that were blocking my car in, I guess in case I tried to break in, and I was cordial and asked questions like what Primer did you use so I can match it ect. This worked to disarm him a bit and he gave professional advice on what to do and I received his sage advice as a young student would listening to a wise master
-  After the car was outside I explained I'd be on his property only till tow truck arrived and assured him no hard feelings, this is all behind us and best wishes. I'm Lying through my teeth of course, as soon as my car is on the tow truck and driving away I am literally on the phone to my attorney and now I'm out for BLOOD

Truth is as much as I want to believe "he'll get his" I have to accept good people who are 100% within the law get screwed and that's it. Law-suits sound good, but to spend $5000 to recover $1500 doesn't make sense. And having my car sit in it's torn up state for months as "evidence" doesn't serve my purpose.


oh, and this is what $4600 of body work looks like (with me doing all the part/trim removal)...

[70 sublime]

Ouch 

[cdr]

    Very sorry this happened to you, because of my past experience & stories from this forum is why I chose to do the body & paint on my car,,, body shop prison, BODY SHOP HE11 , my car looks like a 2 year old did it but I get to drive it, look at it in my garage & when I see the flaws it has I think , I could have done a better job on the 1/4 panel, & then it hits me, I did not pay someone MEGA BUCKS to do a crappy job on my Charger I did it myself, & I can SMILE & be happy.

[ACUDANUT]

 Take him to court !! It may take a very long time to actually get to court.
Because of Covid, all civil cases are taking over a year to get heard.

[timmycharger]

aw man, sorry to hear this. Good on you for not knocking him out, I would have lost my cool for sure. Good luck on this. To me It would be worth it to drag him to court away from his shop just to bust his balls even if I don't see a dime back. F him..

[XH29N0G]

I hope you're successful with this period that really sucks

I'm impressed with what you did though.

[tan top]

  sorry to see / hear this ! 

[HeavyFuel]

Argh.

If it makes you feel better......and it won't.... my car was at the body shop for.......wait for it........6 years.

[lloyd3]

Hard story to read. Sadly, you've got to learn to listen to your "spidey" senses.  I know because I've done it too, ignored what my gut was telling me and paid the price. The minute things go sideways & don't add up it's time to go.  Mine was in the body shop for 5, BTW.

[birdsandbees]

Should have offered him a dollar in front of the officers.. refused it's all yours with no recourse. I'd run out of fingers counting how many airplane customers I've had that were taken down this road and had their plane held hostage.... and I then loaded within an hour by making the customer offer a dollar when the "pro" states I really don't know what he owes me. If they refuse the dollar.. it's all yours.

At least you have her back... better than many!

[Mike DC]

 


It's frustrating, but you made the right call to overpay that guy and get the car back when you did.  Lots of these stories have much worse endings. 


   

[AKcharger]

Well Thanks guys...I expected to be beat-up more.

I spoke with attorney today and it was about like I expected, mostly discouraging, but I do have a plan. He asked why I paid the final bill, he said he could have issued a demand letter and the shop owner would have released it. I don't regreat it, I learned laws don't always get enforced and car is home...mission accomplished

So tomorrow I'm loading car on trailer and going from shop to shop getting estimates on what they would have charged to do the work on the car. Simple formula: rip off bill - Reasonable bill = DAMAGES that's what I can sue for.  My legal package covers initial case support and my prep for small claims court so I'm on my way.

- CDR - smart!
- Acudanut - attorney said most cases are "Zoom" and acutally going very quick
- HF and lloyd3  - 5 and 6 years!! WTF!  
- Bird - I know what your saying but Deputies were USELESS the $1 would not have worked but thanks!
- MikeDC - thanks...yup it SUCKED but I agree...it's home

I have a feeling this will be a long and interesting thread...lets see how it ends!  

[dual fours]

Thanks for sharing your troubles. Glad she is in your possession .

[Mike DC]

            

I spoke with attorney today and it was about like I expected, mostly discouraging, but I do have a plan. He asked why I paid the final bill, he said he could have issued a demand letter and the shop owner would have released it. I don't regreat it, I learned laws don't always get enforced and car is home...mission accomplished

The attorney issues a demand letter, which officially burns the bridge with the shop owner . . . that leaves the owner pissed off, suspecting he won't get his money, and he's looking at your car sitting in his shop . . . . nothing good will come of that.  For all you know he might have already spent your money.  He might decide to pay you back by selling your own car parts.  You might have gotten the car back with no drivetrain & front clip or something.  No telling.  It has happened before.    

Then you might end up in small claims court trying to convince a judge what condition the car was in when the shop got it.  Or maybe trying to explain the intricacies of how much disassembly is required to do how much bodywork.  The shop owner is telling a different story and claiming that you requested more work than you really did, saying he's the bodywork expert in the room, etc.  The judge's eyes are glazing over . . .  


Naw.  F@#k that scene.  
You were smart to pay an extra couple grand and recover the car before the shop owner knew the bridge was burned.  Step #1 for these situations is do whatever it takes to get the car out of the shop's hands ASAP.   

 

[ACUDANUT]

           

I spoke with attorney today and it was about like I expected, mostly discouraging, but I do have a plan. He asked why I paid the final bill, he said he could have issued a demand letter and the shop owner would have released it. I don't regreat it, I learned laws don't always get enforced and car is home...mission accomplished

The attorney issues a demand letter, which officially burns the bridge with the shop owner . . . that leaves the owner pissed off, suspecting he won't get his money, and he's looking at your car sitting in his shop . . . . nothing good will come of that.  You might have gotten the car back with the drivetrain & front clip missing, or something.  

If you read the full acticle, he does have his car back. READ next time.

[Mike DC]

  

If you read the full acticle, he does have his car back. READ next time.

Read MY previous comment.  I already know he got the car back.  My latter comment was done in a hypothetical tone.

[hemi-hampton]

That's a real bummer to hear but not the first time. If I remember right don't you do paint & body work your self? I've worked in many different Paint/Body Shops & Resto shops my entire life, at least 35+ years & I wouldn't trust most of them, most are scammers. I can think of 2 I know of that do good Quality work & fair, trustworthy but expensive. that's like 2 out of like 20+ shops I've been in over 35+ years. Not good odds. like playing Russian Roulette. Luckily I can do my own paint/body Resto or most of it. BUT, My main question is from what I seen you had a pretty nice solid unrestored original paint & Body car. Just my opinion, I would of left it as is, unrestored original survivor. Or if you do do your own paint body do it yourself knowing how the body shops are mostly scammers. Then all this would of been avoided. No Insult intended. When I do a car I make a journal or diary & write down what I do every day on the car & charge Customer hourly. For example if I did the work that guy did & only had 40 hours in it I'd charge you $2,000. I'd charge hourly. you'd see my journal with hours & work performed recorded or written down & upon seeing that I'd assume you'd be happy to pay. BUT, I would never get myself in the situation that scammer did. if $6,500 was total & you paid $4,500 or close to that. you paid like 70% but he only did 25% of the work. LEON.

[darbgnik]

           

I spoke with attorney today and it was about like I expected, mostly discouraging, but I do have a plan. He asked why I paid the final bill, he said he could have issued a demand letter and the shop owner would have released it. I don't regreat it, I learned laws don't always get enforced and car is home...mission accomplished

The attorney issues a demand letter, which officially burns the bridge with the shop owner . . . that leaves the owner pissed off, suspecting he won't get his money, and he's looking at your car sitting in his shop . . . . nothing good will come of that.  For all you know he might have already spent your money.  He might decide to pay you back by selling your own car parts.  You might have gotten the car back with no drivetrain & front clip or something.  No telling.  It has happened before.    

Then you might end up in small claims court trying to convince a judge what condition the car was in when the shop got it.  Or maybe trying to explain the intricacies of how much disassembly is required to do how much bodywork.  The shop owner is telling a different story and claiming that you requested more work than you really did, saying he's the bodywork expert in the room, etc.  The judge's eyes are glazing over . . .  


Naw.  F@#k that scene.  
You were smart to pay an extra couple grand and recover the car before the shop owner knew the bridge was burned.  Step #1 for these situations is do whatever it takes to get the car out of the shop's hands ASAP.   

 

What he said. You were smart to just get the car back like you did.....

[Finoke]

Sux. I've always said that a poorly run or unscrupulous body shop takes the fun out of the hobby. I restore a car every couple of years. I currently only look for painted shells to finish so I don't have to go through it. A car would have to be pretty special for me to bring one back from the grave again.  

[Nacho-RT74]

Argh.

If it makes you feel better......and it won't.... my car was at the body shop for.......wait for it........6 years.

Mine 7 years and still on jackstands, fortunatelly already primed.

But I'm in Spain, my car is in Venezuela, which in any case was already 1000 miles away from my home there. The body shop is of a "friend" of mine what makes it worst! My Venezuelan passport is close to the expiration day ( by July next year ) and Venezuela is not processing new passports ( except if you pay the corruption of course ). Sure I have Spanish passport too, but I need the Venezuelan Passport to enter in Venezuela and leave from there with my car to Spain.

Nice Huh?

[RallyeMike]

Bummer. Still, I think you did the right thing.

[AKcharger]

I appreciate the support for decision to pay to get it out...in hind-sight 1 month and $4600 was a bargin compared to others

Well, it's been a long time my old frends, we have some work to do!

[AKcharger]

- HH I thought it was original paint except for the drivers fender but after careful inspection I found the the whole front end was repainted at one point. The main reason I didn't do it was what I call " the rabbit whole" Well if I'm going to paint it I should do the top, well to do the top I have to pull the windshield...well if I'm ever going to pull the dash nows the time since windshield is out"...and on and on. I wanted an acceptable paint job and drive the car NOW. 

I can absoultly do it I just didn't want to  

a few of my previous projects

[BrianShaughnessy]

Sorry... that sux.      Good luck finishing it   


The way things are lately....

1.  Quality job
2.  Fast turnaround.
3.  Affordable

Pick  ̶2̶   1.

[INTMD8]

I love those 4Runners, used to have the exact same one.  Still have an 88 pickup as well 

[charger500440]

Sorry to see that these things are still happening to people. I've been an auto damage appraiser and/or manager for nearly 25 years. Over the years I've gotten to know a lot of body shop owners, managers and technicians. Some honest, some not. Some very skilled, and some not so much. Here are a few things to keep in mind when selecting a shop to do body and paint work on a classic car:

- Most "quality" body shop owners will turn restoration work away (especially if there is any rust repair)
- Try to find a shop where the owner appreciates your car the way you do (not as easy to find as you might think)
- Insurance work pays $50 - $65 per labor hour for standard body/paint work (depending on where you live)
- If the price quoted seems too good to pass up - pass (the shop will keep pushing your car aside when other, more lucrative jobs come in the door)
- Most body shop technicians hate working on old cars (they're not used to it and they won't make as much money if they're paid flat rate)

Perhaps most important to remember, the shop owner should realize right away that you are going to scrutinize their work very closely. Just as most shops would never paint a tank for a Harley owner, knowing any spec of dust will create a headache and a re-work for the shop - they will expect the same scrutiny from you. The smart body shop owners will simply say "sorry man, I'm just too busy to take this work on right now". A nice way of saying, thanks but I'll pass.

All that said, there are shops that like this work and appreciate the cars the way we do. They're often not the first shops you'd think of to bring your car to. But, that's how it goes. The nice big, clean repair shops focus on insurance work and they're good at it. A restoration project, to them, is a money loser and a fly in the ointment. Fixing a wrecked Camry and restoring a 1970 Charger require similar skills and equipment but the work is still vastly different. The thing to remember is the Camry owner needs the car to go to work and the insurance company is threatening to cut off the owners rental if teh shop doesn't complete the repair soon. Your car is essentially a toy and will get pushed aside (again and again).

Best advice of all, find some car guys in your area and get some references. I'm always amazed that the shops that do nice work on older cars are not the ones I deal with very often for insurance claims.

Hope that helps. Best of luck...

[MoparMike68]

Sorry to see that these things are still happening to people. I've been an auto damage appraiser and/or manager for nearly 25 years. Over the years I've gotten to know a lot of body shop owners, managers and technicians. Some honest, some not. Some very skilled, and some not so much. Here are a few things to keep in mind when selecting a shop to do body and paint work on a classic car:

- Most "quality" body shop owners will turn restoration work away (especially if there is any rust repair)
- Try to find a shop where the owner appreciates your car the way you do (not as easy to find as you might think)
- Insurance work pays $50 - $65 per labor hour for standard body/paint work (depending on where you live)
- If the price quoted seems too good to pass up - pass (the shop will keep pushing your car aside when other, more lucrative jobs come in the door)
- Most body shop technicians hate working on old cars (they're not used to it and they won't make as much money if they're paid flat rate)

Perhaps most important to remember, the shop owner should realize right away that you are going to scrutinize their work very closely. Just as most shops would never paint a tank for a Harley owner, knowing any spec of dust will create a headache and a re-work for the shop - they will expect the same scrutiny from you. The smart body shop owners will simply say "sorry man, I'm just too busy to take this work on right now". A nice way of saying, thanks but I'll pass.

All that said, there are shops that like this work and appreciate the cars the way we do. They're often not the first shops you'd think of to bring your car to. But, that's how it goes. The nice big, clean repair shops focus on insurance work and they're good at it. A restoration project, to them, is a money loser and a fly in the ointment. Fixing a wrecked Camry and restoring a 1970 Charger require similar skills and equipment but the work is still vastly different. The thing to remember is the Camry owner needs the car to go to work and the insurance company is threatening to cut off the owners rental if teh shop doesn't complete the repair soon. Your car is essentially a toy and will get pushed aside (again and again).

Best advice of all, find some car guys in your area and get some references. I'm always amazed that the shops that do nice work on older cars are not the ones I deal with very often for insurance claims.

Hope that helps. Best of luck...

Again and again Word of mouth is the best advice 

[Mike DC]

Any shop that is doing classic car resto work, and isn't losing money on it, is either botching the work and/or charging HUGE rates.   It's inherently a money-losing task.

[c00nhunterjoe]

Any shop that is doing classic car resto work, and isn't losing money on it, is either botching the work and/or charging HUGE rates.   It's inherently a money-losing task.

This.  Same goes for mechanical work. You dont make money working on classics.

[MoparMike68]

Any shop that is doing classic car resto work, and isn't losing money on it, is either botching the work and/or charging HUGE rates.   It's inherently a money-losing task.

This.  Same goes for mechanical work. You dont make money working on classics.

Go on to explain this, What's huge rates?  Why can't someone make money working on classic cars?
If a shop owner has a set hourly rate that's the rate needed to sustain their business much like employees that make
an hourly rate to sustain their livelihood.

[cdr]

Any shop that is doing classic car resto work, and isn't losing money on it, is either botching the work and/or charging HUGE rates.   It's inherently a money-losing task.

This.  Same goes for mechanical work. You dont make money working on classics.

Go on to explain this, What's huge rates?  Why can't someone make money working on classic cars?
If a shop owner has a set hourly rate that's the rate needed to sustain their business much like employees that make
an hourly rate to sustain their livelihood.

Because PEOPLE DONT want to pay for quality work.

[ACUDANUT]

If the customer is willing to pay the shop hourly labor rate, how can the owner of a shop lose money. This makes zero sense.

[MoparMike68]

Because PEOPLE DONT want to pay for quality work.
[/quote]
So true, you get what you pay for, most of the time.

[Mike DC]

          

If the customer is willing to pay the shop hourly labor rate, how can the owner of a shop lose money. This makes zero sense.

Go ask 30 reputable collision shops.  They will all tell you that classic restos are money-losers.  

They aren't all lying.  It's not a conspiracy.  


The true number of labor-hours that resto work requires is atrocious.  And the number usually grows higher than it looked originally during the estimate.  Most customers wouldn't want to pay it.  It's hard to explain to a customer (or a judge) why they are charging a higher price to mount a panel on a classic car than they have charged on a hundred other modern cars, and then the price went even higher still before it was finished.  

The shops end up compromising on the labor figure (read: losing money) just to avoid having the customer get furious, maybe refuse to pay, or be unable to pay, or maybe take them to court.  It's less of a PITA to keep the bill lower and get their money without a risking a battle over it.  And trying to bargain with the customer isn't a solution either.  The customer comes away saying "That ripoff shop asked me for $10k for that job!  When I threatened to fight it they immediately lowered it to $7k!  What a bunch of cons!"  No, the shop pretty much has to pick a price number for the bill and stick with it.    

Most people simply won't (or cannot) pay a skilled pro for every hour that he will have to spend on a classic.  

[charger500440]

If the customer is willing to pay the shop hourly labor rate, how can the owner of a shop lose money. This makes zero sense.

This is tough to answer without seeing the shops books. But, I can shed some light on what "hourly rate" actually means. In the collision/insurance world, shops beat the hourly rate paid by insurance carriers by at least 2:1. For example, an insurer may pay 3.5 hours to paint and clear a bumper cover but there is no way the painter is going to actually take 3.5 hours. The shop got paid roughly $175 (3.5 x $50) but the technician probably did that work in 1.5 hours or so at worst (equating to $116/hr). Plus, he's likely working on 4-6 vehicles simultaneously - increasing the shop's efficiency even more. This is how the shops make money despite the relatively "low" hourly rate.

Explaining this to customers is nearly impossible. Customers will ask why the body rate is so low when the service department rate is 3-4 times higher. Even my plumber charged me twice that much. Yes, but the plumber charged you $175 for the hour and 15 minutes he worked on your house. Does the collision/insurance system make much sense? No, but it does work.

For a collision shop to mix in restoration work upsets the shop tremendously, creating a situation where the old car gets pushed outside to make room for more efficient (and time sensitive) repairs. The last remaining obstacle to all this is the shop owner's inability to price the job correctly up front. Because they don't do this work often, they usually under-estimate the work needed (don't we all?). This leads to the nightmare scenario's we've all heard stories about. Shop is halfway through the work, is asking for thousands more and is now holding the vehicle hostage.

For me, I would love to see how a restoration shop actually functions and makes money. I can't imagine what a shop would charge me to restore my Charger. Being an appraiser, I just can't see how any vehicle worth under $100K can be restored professionally without losing a ton of money...

[Mike DC]

           

I can't imagine what a shop would charge me to restore my Charger. Being an appraiser, I just can't see how any vehicle worth under $100K can be restored professionally without losing a ton of money...

That's the point.  It can't.   Restos are normally money-losers unless there is a rare VIN number. 


Resto work is hand-building a car.  If hand-building cars was affordable then the OEMs wouldn't be using assembly lines. 

           

[ACUDANUT]

"Because PEOPLE DONT want to pay for quality work"

Well I guess our hobby is done. 

[MoparMike68]

         

If the customer is willing to pay the shop hourly labor rate, how can the owner of a shop lose money. This makes zero sense.

Go ask 30 reputable collision shops.  They will all tell you that classic restos are money-losers.  

They aren't all lying.  It's not a conspiracy.  


The true number of labor-hours that resto work requires is atrocious.  And the number usually grows higher than it looked originally during the estimate.  Most customers wouldn't want to pay it.  It's hard to explain to a customer (or a judge) why they are charging a higher price to mount a panel on a classic car than they have charged on a hundred other modern cars, and then the price went even higher still before it was finished.  

The shops end up compromising on the labor figure (read: losing money) just to avoid having the customer get furious, maybe refuse to pay, or be unable to pay, or maybe take them to court.  It's less of a PITA to keep the bill lower and get their money without a risking a battle over it.  And trying to bargain with the customer isn't a solution either.  The customer comes away saying "That ripoff shop asked me for $10k for that job!  When I threatened to fight it they immediately lowered it to $7k!  What a bunch of cons!"  No, the shop pretty much has to pick a price number for the bill and stick with it.    

Most people simply won't (or cannot) pay a skilled pro for every hour that he will have to spend on a classic.  

None of this is true, a collision shop is not a restoration shop even if you ask 31 of them and they are money losers
For the customer only. People should know "It costs more to restore". 
Also most restoration shop's are pay as you go and if you can't you take and go. 
The fact that most won't pay is exactly why they shouldn't be in an unaffordable hobby in the first place, there are people that
don't have a problem with paying for quality work, and that can only be found word of mouth. Reviews are the broke people
that expect the same quality at a discounted price and need to realize that highly skilled individuals with lots of experience
don't work cheap because it takes many years to develop some skills and be really good at it.

[Mike DC]

None of this is true, a collision shop is not a restoration shop even if you ask 31 of them and they are money losers
For the customer only. People should know "It costs more to restore".  yesnod
Also most restoration shop's are pay as you go and if you can't you take and go.  lol
The fact that most won't pay is exactly why they shouldn't be in an unaffordable hobby in the first place, there are people that
don't have a problem with paying for quality work, and that can only be found word of mouth. Reviews are the broke people
that expect the same quality at a discounted price and need to realize that highly skilled individuals with lots of experience
don't work cheap because it takes many years to develop some skills and be really good at it.

Yeah, there are dedicated 'resto' and 'collision' shops.  But there is often overlap between them too.  They are similar operations.  Many resto shops do collision work to help pay the bills.  Etc.    

Most old cars cannot be restored at a profit.  That's not news.  And for most guys it's not a reason to quit the muscle car hobby.  If you demand that your hobby always has to make a profit then it's not really a hobby, it's a business.  This hobby exists because a lot of guys are willing to lose money restoring cars because they love them.  

   

[MoparMike68]

Quote,
Yeah, there are dedicated 'resto' and 'collision' shops.  But there is often overlap between them too.  They are similar operations.  Many resto shops do collision work to help pay the bills.  Etc.    

That's up for debate, maybe the hack shop's Take collision work but none I've come across.
Body shops don't want restoration work and I think the same goes for resto shops, The shops I've visited were all busy with
muscle cars restoring and maintenance. In fact there's was a waiting list in each of them. Also the more employees and overhead
the hourly rate was higher.

Quote,
Most old cars cannot be restored at a profit.  That's not news.  And for most guys it's not a reason to quit the muscle car hobby.  If you demand that your hobby always has to make a profit then it's not really a hobby, it's a business.  This hobby exists because a lot of guys are willing to lose money restoring cars because they love them.  

No argument there, or lose of money, lots of money   

   

[hemi-hampton]

Being in the Resto Business for 35 years lots of stuff I was going to say but some of you nailed it pretty good while some are clueless. A Resto always takes much more time & Money then the Customer expects. Most Resto Shops I know do not charge Time & Material A.K.A. Hourly because most Customers don't want to pay hourly. Plus every Customer will say I don't want no Show Car & don't want to pay the big bucks for a Show Car. BUT, Once car is done they nit pick at every little micro flaw & pissed off it's not a show car. I've seen Tons of Resto Shops in my area come & go over past 35 years. Sure, Some promise the Customers everything they want to hear, how fast & cheap they'll get it done & you'll love it. The Shop is flooded with tons of cars for the first couple years. BUT, 5 years later where are they? Closed up & gone. Seen it lots of times. I got more I could say but many people would just get pissed off. LEON.

[chargerperson]

I know of at least one restoration only shop that is doing well, the one where I had my car done.

In the New York City area there is enough customers willing to pay for quality work.  Shop only does restorations plus an occasion bit of collision work on a classic car - I have seen them do 3 classic collision repairs in 6 years. 

They did my car in 15 months

https://www.premierresto.com/

My car restoration
https://www.premierresto.com/1967-charger

[Kern Dog]

Plus every Customer will say I don't want no Show Car & don't want to pay the big bucks for a Show Car. BUT, Once car is done they nit pick at every little micro flaw & pissed off it's not a show car.

I have seen this as well.

[Mike DC]

        

I have seen this as well.

Yeah, pretty much.  "I don't want a show car, I just want a car without any flaws."  

[MoparMike68]

Being in the Resto Business for 35 years lots of stuff I was going to say but some of you nailed it pretty good while some are clueless. A Resto always takes much more time & Money then the Customer expects. Most Resto Shops I know do not charge Time & Material A.K.A. Hourly because most Customers don't want to pay hourly. Plus every Customer will say I don't want no Show Car & don't want to pay the big bucks for a Show Car. BUT, Once car is done they nit pick at every little micro flaw & pissed off it's not a show car. I've seen Tons of Resto Shops in my area come & go over past 35 years. Sure, Some promise the Customers everything they want to hear, how fast & cheap they'll get it done & you'll love it. The Shop is flooded with tons of cars for the first couple years. BUT, 5 years later where are they? Closed up & gone. Seen it lots of times. I got more I could say but many people would just get pissed off. LEON.

In NJ my area the shop's I've visited we're all in business for 30+ years and all charge hourly and are very much busy with that
system in place none of them take any work other then classic muscle cars. Your area may be different, but I do agree
with the "I don't want a show car"...hey that's not show quality 
I did find that all of them complained talent was hard to come by and they would like to have more skilled technicians.
Today it's easy to research how long the shop's been in business if you go to one in a city that just opened good luck with that.
According to your formula look for shops with five or more years in business 

[greycharger]

Was with a friend at a GMC dealership in the early 80's. There was a new Sprint on the showroom floor and I looked it over. It caught my attention when I walked by because the orange peel of the paint snagged my shirt tail. It was shinny, but I was amazed at the imperfections in metal and paint. Somebody bought it and I'm sure they thought it was a beauty.

Then I thought about how everybody behaves when a buddy gets a car fresh from the body shop. They get back and down on one knee so they can look down the side. "Oh! there's a speck of dust" or "I see a sanding scratch".
For a job that was done on budget, they are critiquing the work as no one ever does with a brand new car. I do it too, but only as a way to learn, and avoid someone else's "mistake", or learn something from their success. 

[Kern Dog]

I have found that the better a car looks, the more that some people look for flaws. If you have a car that looks "okay" at first glance, sometimes people just accept that it isn't perfect and just move on.
When the car looks much better, they do look closer. Maybe it is just part of our nature to look for flaws.
Looking at women online, that sure rings true. You see a beautiful woman and often think....Her butt is too big, her eyes are too close together or some stupid thing like that.

[ACUDANUT]

KD, or she has a black mole next to her catcher's mitt. 

[MoparMike68]

 

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=sJTaHBB78f4

[greycharger]

Saw an ad on the Denver CL. Body shop will work on cars for $55 per hour. Okay. They had a bunch of photos, so I emailed them. I have a 66 Charger that needs two quarters installed. Have quarters cut off another car, no rust repair, just a replacement.
They responded 22 to 26 hours, ready for paint.  @ $1,200?

[cdr]

Saw an ad on the Denver CL. Body shop will work on cars for $55 per hour. Okay. They had a bunch of photos, so I emailed them. I have a 66 Charger that needs two quarters installed. Have quarters cut off another car, no rust repair, just a replacement.
They responded 22 to 26 hours, ready for paint.  @ $1,200?

Maybe each 

[hemi-hampton]

There is a big gray area in paint & bodywork. Some will weld a 1/4 on & call it done, Painter wants to just scuff & paint Blow & Go. BUT, Who's the guy that grinds the welds, body fills the welds, Primes it, Blocks it & then primes again & blocks again, now it's ready for paint. after another 8 hours (maybe 16 hrs depending) spent on it. unless your a professional Tig welder & then it needs very little filler or priming & blocking. Any one that has primed & blocked a car then primed & blocked again because they wanted it straight knows you can spend just 22 hrs priming & blocking 2 entire 1/4 panels end to end top to bottom to get ready for paint. Just my opinion, I'm sure some will say I'm crazy they can do all that in a couple of hours & it will be mint.

[greycharger]

 
Their reasonable estimate would suggest they've done one before. The weld points on a Gen 1 Charger are all mostly behind trim, doors, or down low, so they aren't readily visible. Being able to cover the welds saves time; not a lot of grinding needed. Could use a spot welder for a great share of them, but I will use a mig welder. Filling the holes from the drilled out spot welds will make for good penetration and a flat puddle.

[nchrome]

l know what a few are talking about. l for one want a driver not a trailer queen. lf she looks that good to where l don't want to drive it then l will sell it cause its worthless to me. l'm proud of my car and am willing to show it off flaws and all. lf ya got to nit-pick her then do so but at least ya can touch and look but ya can't drive her she's mine.

[darbgnik]

       

Yeah, pretty much.  "I don't want a show car, I just want a car without any flaws."  

Hahaha. Truth! 

[ACUDANUT]

 Too many haters here. Why do you own a 50 year old car and tell everyone else it's not worth restoring. ?
Better yet, why are you even a member here ?

[AKcharger]

Glad to see the thread "evolving"..please carry on!

[AKcharger]

Oh!  I just left everyone hanging for the past two years, didn't I??

- The guy? completely off the hook, no way to prove damages...I can only hope he burns in Hell and he has to look up to talk to Hitler

- Car? it took about 3 months working in my driveway to finish the body work and paint on My own (Clear coat kicked my butt, had shop do that) luckily we were still deep in COVID® so it wasn't a big deal. It's been the best MOPAR I've owned, even took it to Carlise in July, so all worked out!




Now it's time to bring the '72 down for paint, I was gonna do it myself, but I found this guy who lives in a van down by the river that said he can do it fast and super cheap!  

[b5blue]

This is gonna be GOOD! 

[AKcharger]

This is gonna be GOOD! 

Well actually this time I think I made the right choice. He only had it 2 days and he has it stripped, media blasted!!! I'm guessing he's working the doors/hood/truck separately off the car. Plus is he's storing the parts (somewhere) so my garage isn't messy!

I wish he would answer my calls though...and his vans gone?   

[70 sublime]

Your buddy called me and said he had to move to a different parking lot and asked if I could swing by with my trailer and pick up the rest of the car so he can work on it after hours to not disturb you 

[b5blue]

 

[hemi-hampton]

Was it this guy???

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xv2VIEY9-A8

[AKcharger]

Was it this guy???

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xv2VIEY9-A8

ah! you've delt with him too huh? He told me he did body work, didn't say anything about being a motivational speaker?

[cdr]

I did not need a body shop to %^&%$ up my car, I ^%&*&% it all up on my own LOL, I knew I would never get my car back & if I did get it back I would be un happy with the results for the money spent, SO now when I look at all the flaws my car has I just say to myself ,I did the best I could but at least I did not pay someone else to F&*&*C* it all up LOL     

[RJS]

I'm confused, isn't that Blue 72 forsale on here as we speak???
Ron

[Mopar Nut]

This is gonna be GOOD! 

Well actually this time I think I made the right choice. He only had it 2 days and he has it stripped, media blasted!!!

When I lived near Washington D.C., this would've been stripped in two hours sitting on cinder blocks. Glad to hear it's working out for you.

[AKcharger]

I'm confused, isn't that Blue 72 forsale on here as we speak???
Ron

Hi RMS sale is suspended, since I'm keeping it doing another restoration

[6PakBee]

I did not need a body shop to %^&%$ up my car, I ^%&*&% it all up on my own LOL, I knew I would never get my car back & if I did get it back I would be un happy with the results for the money spent, SO now when I look at all the flaws my car has I just say to myself ,I did the best I could but at least I did not pay someone else to F&*&*C* it all up LOL     

I'm with you.