Raising compression? But NOT with heads or Pistons!!??

[rockosocko]

Good morning guys n gals.
I've been wrenching on all sorts of machinery for close to 40yrs. So I've donated my share of BLOOD! lol.
Also have been reading and reading for the past year or so on 'performance' work on the 440's, of which I have now acquired 3 440's for a couple (WILD) projects that I have.

So, with all my reading and reading, and watching and watching.. I've noticed that it seems the RB blocks (and even my own small block -5.2 magnum build-) that the pistons are 'in the hole' an ASTONISHING AMOUNT!!
Then the info that's most given is to find either small chamber heads (milled as needed) shim gaskets, high compre$$ion pi$ton$, and not soo much info on 'decking' the block..

But one thing I haven't seen or read is:
WHAT ABOUT the RODS?  To me if you're rebuilding the engine, why not just get longer, aftermarket ROD's that take you up to "zero" deck. Then use the .040+ of the H/G choice for quench?
To me, it would be cheaper to just get longer rods and balance the assy, versus Forged piston$, and head$ (CNC, 10*'s yadda yadda..)

I spent a long time getting a '73 Winnebago engine 'cause it was only showing 3100miles!!
Then trading a whole trailer load of parts for 2-more 440's.
1- another camper with 66,000 that was pulled by the guy I traded with.
2- 'supposed' RACE engine!!  (OOoohhh! the crowd goes silent and thoughts start racing.. lol)

Well, I just HAD TO tear into the Race engine first. (It came as a long block with no intake, 516 heads, 'car' pan, and auto 'flex plate/flywheel)
--SIDE NOTE-- For it's price, you CAN'T BEAT IT!! It's a Bore-scope that I got off Amazon for like $40 (because it's got the 12' lighted lead) to pull the plugs and go into each cylinder, or wherever you want! Also, it's got a 3.5" screen, you don't have to 'register' ALL YOUR INFO to some off shore entity. Just charge it and use it. So simple I can do it. (if I can find where I put it last lol)

So, using the scope, my heart kinda sank watching the screen to see...  Yep, .170 in the hole again, and NO dome on piston crowns.
Just like the camper engines. So, it's not the 'race' engine that I was hoping. (well, it's got a double row timing chain! does that count for 75HP??) especially no 'special' bolts on the rods.

With all that rambling (sorry for the ADHD) Why hasn't anyone just installed longer rods? I mean it seems the past 20yrs or so that anyone can pick up a phone and have a set on the way!
Yes, it's nice that now I have a set of small chamber heads, but haven't taken them apart yet to see what the seats, guides and chambers CC out to be and make note of what its' gonna cost to put them back on.

My 'build' is hoping for around 475hp and 500ft/lbs on the high side. But since it's slated for a 3100lb vehicle, I'd probably never notice if it ends up at 400/450.
With the A833, Dana 44, the 28" tall tires are gonna break loose first before things start breaking I would think..

SO what are your guys n gals thoughts on just using longer rods? I mean, I wouldn't even have to bore it! Just might get sketchy on pressing the slugs off(?)
In my limited resources, I just haven't seen this talked about.

Also, I'm NOT trying to start arguments, or have my thread go off down rabbit trails. (and reserve the right to address posters who just have to prove they have more time on their hands than me, spewing out unnecessary gobldy-gook that takes away from JUST PLAIN GOOD INFO) I mean, I LOVE YA MAN.. Just wanting to get what I need. just like everyone else.

I have a multiple degrees (school and REAL world) in Welding and Machining processes, and work as a Sr. Fabricator, who LOVES to work on 'stuff' and make things better.

Rocko

[cdr]

because there are not that many different rod lengths for a BB mopar journal size

[Kern Dog]

Availability is an issue.
IF you had access to rods that were longer to raise the piston height to zero deck, you wouldn't gain any cubic inches from it since it is the bore and crank stroke that dictate the displacement BUT it would affect the compression ratio.
The problem is, pistons are cheaper since there are already ones available. Custom rods? Ouch...That could get expensive IF you could even find them.
I am not against the tactic of finding alternative ways to do things. If you were to make this work, you'd surely gain some respect!

[rockosocko]

Thanks guys.
I'm not concerned with "gaining inches" at all. Just a more efficient engine. If it happens, it happens.
And don't NEED/WANT the "respect" thing. It's more of conquering something. Like the feeling of driving a sleeper. (I guess you'd have to know me. Plus, the adhd thing pushes me to try and start something before I'm done with what's on the table..)

I've got a few (several) Caddy 472's and 500's that I picked up from a good friend that had to move away. And one of the 500 cranks was damaged on a pin from throwing a rod, and was kind of disregarding it until i read that you could offset grind the rod journals (.250!!) to use BB Chevy rods, since there's a PLENTIFUL amount of lengths to choose from. But, with only 2-3 vendors selling HP Caddy parts, ...ALL the other parts ain't cheap. That's why the slight move to Mopar.
But just on the other side of town is Bullet Cams. Their crank man told me that it would only cost about $250 to have the Caddy crank done!  So, I'll be heading out there Tues to ask about the 440 crank.
And it seems that I read somewhere that I also read that same strategy in a Mopar type forum also.  But.. I won't be calling Molnar, Pauter, or Oliver either.
WAIT!! HOLD THE PRESSES! Lookie here!: I rubbed my eyeballs and YEP! BB Chevy ends! And NOT $2500 either.  Hhhmm.
https://molnarrods.com/426-hemi-and-big-block-mopar-connecting-rods-htm

And book-marked Source 440, to find that 'stock' RB rod set is only $250. ($50 for a single "factory replacement")
Maybe I'll call them since they've surely got all the MOPAR info and specs they need. Even if it climbs to $500, the only "IF" I see is if I can press off the pistons from my old rods without cracking them.
http://store.440source.com/Factory-Replacement-Rods/products/139/#:~:text=Length%20is%20factory%20RB%20at,known%20as%20a%20fatigue%20life.

So, just for kicks:
$200-250+ for balancing assy, if I don't need Mallory.
$10-15ea rod to press off pistons.
And again to put on.
$53 fel pro, full gasket set. Part Number: 375-KS2110 -Jegs. probably cheaper on Rock-auto.
$140 Chevy 2.2" rod bearings.
$100-120 main bearings. Source.      Probably cheaper on Rock-auto
$-?? 500? for Source/Molnar rods (prices subject to change without notification lol..)
$-150? for custom grind on Cam "blank" (they only charged me 130 for my Caddy cam, so shootin high here)

REALLY!!? This isn't looking that bad at all. ..considering other builds I've done or seen.

And with the dwell time at TDC with the more efficient 'quench' towards stock Iron heads, that should resist detonation considerably.
(of course, depending on the cam specs and valve to piston clearance @TDC also.) ..But hey.. Probably wouldn't need the aftermarket heads in my scenario then either. 
David and Steve did a Vid on Engine masters, comparing longer vs shorter con rods. Didn't change power output that much at all.
(Smokey must be rollin in his grave!! or eatin his hat!) And Not like all the Online keyboard Masters say.
I wonder if they would consider a long rod MOPAR 'test' like this on one of Steve's 440's? instead of Cheby?

Now, just Cylinder head question. If these 'experts' say you want the exhaust valve dia, ___% of the intake dia. With the dwell at TDC, you would think that ONLY enlarging the exhaust (pocket porting both) and closing the overlap a bit would expel the exhaust more efficiently? NO?
There are some F'n GENIUS'S on Speedtalk.com. Maybe I'll ask there also. (NO offense. But it's kinda fun to get these engineer minds all wound up and let them go at each other.. But the info that spews out is AMAZING! (right-click-save. right-click-save..)
Even if you use a 4th of what they come up with, you'd most likely be happy!




..are ya kinda seeing the adhd? (It's a PARTY up n hurr) I'm just along for the ride lol.

Rocko

[70 sublime]

 But, with only 2-3 vendors selling HP Caddy parts, ...ALL the other parts ain't cheap. That's why the slight move to Mopar.

Umm you went to Mopar because you think it will be cheaper ? 

Anyways

Have you ever thought about just adding a blower to push a little more air in to start with ?
A Paxton set up will mount under the hood unlike the Roots where you need to cut a big hole in the hood

[BSB67]

Welcome to the board.

I think your question has been answered.  But I'm not sure you're convinced.  If a different rod was a low cost solution, everyone would know it.  Said differently, if you go down the rod path, you will spend more in the end.  For what you're trying to do, your low cost option is simply to buy the 2355 Speed Pro piston for $370, hang them on your existing ly rods and your done.  You don't even need to rebalance.

Because you are new to Mopars, I can see why you might think there is some new better cheaper way of doing stuff.  Good for you, I can see you're a thinking man.  That said, there have been a lot of pretty smart people in the Mopar game for a long time.  Mopar guys have been offset grinding 440 cranks, using Chevy rods, and putting them in 400 blocks for 55 years, just as an example.

[c00nhunterjoe]

Welcome to the board.

I think your question has been answered.  But I'm not sure you're convinced.  If a different rod was a low cost solution, everyone would know it.  Said differently, if you go down the rod path, you will spend more in the end.  For what you're trying to do, your low cost option is simply to buy the 2355 Speed Pro piston for $370, hang them on your existing ly rods and your done.  You don't even need to rebalance.

Because you are new to Mopars, I can see why you might think there is some new better cheaper way of doing stuff.  Good for you, I can see you're a thinking man.  That said, there have been a lot of pretty smart people in the Mopar game for a long time.  Mopar guys have been offset grinding 440 cranks, using Chevy rods, and putting them in 400 blocks for 55 years, just as an example.

[rockosocko]

70 Sublime;
They're TONS cheaper than Caddy!
A couple weeks ago I got a pair of GOOD 452's for $120. A few months ago I got a pair of 'ok' 906's for FREE! (gotta tear them down and take a look)
Then a speed shop here locally had moved and had a trailer load of 'old stuff' that they had on the shelves for YEARS, now heading to scrap.
And, didn't pay anything really for 2 pretty much complete 440's. (already had the parts he wanted as trade/payment, so about $60 in gas back and forth)
You're NOT going to find a 'good' used set of aluminum Bulldog heads on craigslist or Ebay ANYTIME soon.
It's supply and demand. There wasn't any real demand for decades, so there was never really a supply for the Caddy stuff.
Plus, I just linked a couple (higher$$) manufacturers marketing some inexpensive parts for US MOPAR peeps.

BSB67;
So, do the Speedpro 2355's lower the wrist pin to give higher compression height right? And you DON'T have to re-balance it? Interesting.. And I would guess that they're offering thinner 'metric' rings to? I'll do some reading up on them. Thanks.
And my ol buddy that passed was telling me of his 400 builds that he did for DECADES.
But to me, (like YOU state) for probably over 55yrs there has been a great demand (that's a L O N G time!) and with all the History of Mopar, you would think that 'somebody' would've stepped up and MADE a supply like manufacturers did with 383 chevy cranks and all sorts of rods/piston combo's. (I wonder why INDY hasn't done ANYTHING to engulf the market on blocks and heads for all sorts of makers? They just seemed to sit right in the PRO-RACING ranks, because that's where the BIG $$$ is. And most likely-- NO WARRANTY'S ON RACE PARTS ONCE INSTALLED!! ..or un-boxed really. probably check for finger prints lol)
As I'm pretty much a newbee on Mopar scene, and just my year or so reading and planning, I see that Source440 has exploded on the scene and really stepped up. (and a few more, just can't remember the names)
But.. So has Speedmaster. They saw the DEMAND, and produced heads and other parts, that are light and cheap (maybe not such a 'good' thing) Incoming reviews of fallen seats, warping etc might leave a bad taste..

I GREATLY appreciate your extensive knowledge here guys! Truly I DO
I'm just asking ..but WHY NOT? Im also not trying to piss in everyones chereo's either. "WHY NOT" has changed our world since BEFORE the wheel!! And now since CAD CAM programs and 3D-printing, it seems the mind is the only limitation.
here's a quick little joke.
Egyptian King and Queen traveling across the open sea.
Rowmaster: Good news men, You get double rations tonight!! (ROARING CHEERS!!)
But the queen wants to go water skiing NOW!!
PRAISE GOD for the guy that actually made an impeller WORK!

AND.. If here in the next year or so YOU could make a call and order up a set of H-beam's and light or ultra light pistons with 2021's tech in them, would you consider? Or are you 'done' building engines? (At almost 60, and several major surgeries, this shtuff is getting heavier by the day it seems lol..)
It's almost like the ones that don't want a 'change' or experiment are killing their own future. I usually port my own heads, and have been doing so since the early 90's, with pretty darn good results. Started with Honda's back in the 70's (because that's what I could afford working on the farm) to make them perform BETTER! NO flowbench, NO high $$ parts. Just reading what the 'pros' do and applying that to what Im working on.
Heck, you should see what they make for the Briggs/Stratten and Predator air cooled engines!!
All the chevy guys are selling off the ol small block stuff dirt cheap, (some NOT SO much) so they can swap in an LS (into ANYTHING) Because Manufacturers saw the demand, and REALLY stepped up the game!

The youngin's now days don't care about anything but food, money, and how they look to others.. (bunch of late model Hippies.. Just ripe for the pickins!)

Yes Sir, I'll look into/at the Speed pro pistons you showed me, and ask around.
Bullet closes in a bit. So I'll head there first. There's a couple Mopar guys there, so I'll ask if they hear of any manufacturing slated for us. (dang-it. closed)

Rocko

[BSB67]

You can already buy most anything you need for most reasonable combinations from various vendors.  That is why we've stopped mixing and matching stuff.  Of course there exceptions. 

The 2355 is the old style forged version of the 1970 440 Six Pac piston.  They use the same original ring pack size and are heavy as hell.  They have a 2.06"-ish compression height and will be about 0.020" down in an uncut block.  Works absolutely fine in a 500 HP  standard stroke 440 cu.in application.

If you want light weight with 1/16" rings, there are a bunch of those available too.  The 2.06" piston CH is the go-to number that the manufacturers all use as a zero deck is easily achievable.  But they cost more, will require rebalancing, and may require the Chevy 0.990" pin, meaning bushing the std rod.  Then you need to ask yourself if you want to stuff these nice parts into a worn std bore block with a ridge, out of round and taper using factory rods.

And honestly, if all your looking for is 450 HP, you can probably get there with the piston 0.160" in the hole with the right head and cam.  Just depends on how you want to skin the cat

[rockosocko]

Thanks again BSB67 for getting back.
I'm waiting for vendors to open since I'm CST.

Ridge and Taper? No ridge to catch a finger nail on or feel on the block that had the 516 heads. Just carbon. (plugs were terribly sooty. So P.O. probably didn't have a 'good' tune on it) It's still got the pistons in it so can't get an accurate measurement on taper. (but can still see even wear cross hatch down to BDC. NO difference from all 4 points that I can see)
The balance pads on the rod caps look to be polished (?) Either it was balanced to 0, or prev builder just liked the look of it. Usually a belt sander leaves a bit more texture to it. Under the piston, I didn't see any drill divots or grinding marks telling me they were balanced. So the 2355's 'might' be an option. Want to clean up the heads. CC them and the bores to get a better compression number to go on.
The 'complete' camper 440 is still all assembled, so can't measure that either.
The stripped camper 440 has two cyl's that were pitted from the camper sitting out in a field for about 9yrs(?). And just guessing moisture got in through valves that were open to those cylinders, and rusted them pretty bad. YES, that will get an over bore. (but that's w a y down the road. If I need a 'good' builder core, the complete one will get stripped down first)

I'm just shooting low on the HP figures. I'm used to low torque engines. So something that's got close to 500 at about 2000-2500rpms is going to be 'different' to say the least.
If my impact will bust that 3" balancer bolt loose, I can get the cam out and take it to Bullet for them to tell me what it's got for specs. (or check for Manufacturer ID stamp)
Just by looking at the lobes from the valley, they appear to have some duration to them compared to the 'rusty' block.
What's the torque spec on the balancer bolt?

I'll post my findings if I get any answers for longer rods.

Thanks

[c00nhunterjoe]

Im still not following why you are going to spend the money on custom length rods to hang on 50 year old heavy stock bore cast pistons? By the time you are done you could buy a stroker rotating assembly with all new parts, bearings and hardware and have a lightweight piston. 

[rockosocko]

Not really. The main question was pretty much why Chrysler/Dodge leave the pistons soo far down in the hole in a block that THEY created as a "raised deck" block. and from what I've read and watched in vids, is that everyone (it seems) that doesn't have a 6-pack engine, wants to raise the compression for better performance. And they usually go to a closed chamber cylinder head swap. It's argued that all the open chamber heads are pretty much all the same size. So guys go to the closed chamber heads. (For the average Joe, it's easier than tearing down the whole engine, and installing the 6-pack pistons)
I was asking WHY isn't there any longer rod options out there for as long as they've been making those blocks.
I mean, If you're NOT going to get to .020-zero, Why have a raised block in the first place? It's not that way in the 'Hemi' is it?

I don't know the weight difference between the "STOCK" cast and forged pistons, so I'm at a loss there. And would assume that the weights are all over between all the different piston makers, from cast-hyper-forged.

I also DID get on Source's site and there's only a couple options (under stroker kits) that aren't .015-.018 in the hole!!
And that's even with the offset ground cranks with 7.1 BB chevy rods! The few that are closer to deck are around 13:1 and up.
BTW, their phone is busy.. So I copied and pasted the part number for a price on a couple of their kits. Clicked 'add to cart' and
it says INVALID part number..? (yes, tried a couple different ways and times)

And if people don't like Big, Old and heavy, there's always Honda.. just sayin.

[c00nhunterjoe]

ok, try to address a bunch of the questions.
   Chrysler kept dropping compression for emissions purposes only. Its easier in mass production to have the same rods in every engine and swap pistons on the assembly line for applications such as hi performance, grocery getter, or farm truck 440. No balancing, no other changes, just grab a different piston and go.
   Going from a 906 or 452 open chamber to a 915 or 516 closed chamber head on a smog 8:1 engine will bring it up to roughly an 8.4:1 engine. 915s are hard to find and expensive. 516s dont flow nearly as well and have small valves so any gain in compression is lost 1.5 times in lack of flow. I shouldnt really have to address that any further than that.
   Regarding piston weights, simplest and most common is basicly taking a 383 block and putting a 440 crank in it. You get a 440 with 1/3 the rotating mass as a result with the same cubes. That translates to a big block that revs fast and high like a small block and is easier on parts making it live longer.