An all electric car for a second car ?

[green69rt]

How many miles are you getting say for 50% of the battery capacity ?

I'm going to say, around 150 going from 70% to 20%.  Since the virus, we've been driving about 30 miles a day,  sometimes more, sometimes less.  So charging with 110 VAC at night keeps us more than full, some nights I don't plug in.

[green69rt]

I can understand the appeal.
I am not interested but if someone else is, I wouldn't care...UNLESS they try to say that they are saving the planet or some other similar nonsense.
Just admit it...some people don't care for the smell of gasoline, the noise of the engine or whatever. It is the hypocrisy that annoys me. Mining for chemicals to make batteries harms the environment. Disposal of the batteries harms the environment. Charging the batteries has an effect too. Electric cars are impressive now because they do most of what a gasoline car can do and most people will not see the drawbacks in front of them. They exist though, they are just occur out of their immediate view.

There are good and bad points.  Yes, mining for material is a minus, so is drilling for oil.  Getting the infrastructure installed(charging stations) is still far from where it needs to be if more people get these cars.  But maintenance is lower (no engine, transmission.)  Still need AC in Houston so that's a match.  There's other stuff but technology marches on and the batteries are getting better.  More people will have solar so using fossil fuels to charge an electric car is changing (our plan.)

Arguments can go on for decades about pros and cons.  We just decided to do it for economic reasons and any environmental benefit is gravy.

Also, Houston has some of the dirtiest air and we just don't want to contribute.

[70 sublime]

Also, Houston has some of the dirtiest air and we just don't want to contribute.


So your wife will never ride with you in your Charger so you will be the only one that will contribute 

[Kern Dog]

Also, Houston has some of the dirtiest air and we just don't want to contribute.

Hold on for a moment, please realize that the following is not an attack!
Just because the car itself does not pollute, it does not mean that NO pollution exists to build the car or to support the use of it. You are only seeing the car itself.
Take for example the poor, misguided people that say that they do not hunt, they buy meat from the grocery store because it is more humane. Huh?
The result for the animal is the same, it is just the final consumer that never sees all the steps that is required to get the product to them.
New gasoline engines run so clean, I wonder if the electric car is actually a net positive. With internal combustion, you do have to consider the effects of oil refining but in doing so, natural gas is also extracted. How do we generate electricity? In some cases, with natural gas. I am more open minded than I used to be about the subject but I still come back to the efforts and impacts that the batteries have on the environment compared to what gasoline powered vehicles do. Mining for materials, manufacturing, the need to charge them and the eventual disposal. Can the used up batteries be recycled with any success? For me, I think of used batteries as far more harmful than used oil. Oil can be burned in heaters, used to make asphalt and tires, recycled into motor oil again, etc.  If the recycled electric car batteries can be somehow recycled to something useful, I would be swayed a little more toward accepting them. I'm not stating that they can't, I simply do not know the facts of it.
I will admit that the elimination for the need of oil, filters and kitty litter to clean up spills is pretty cool.

[alfaitalia]

Just to be clear I don't want an electric car and wont have one until I'm made to.....but....I don't think that there is any doubt that if you take everything into account....so that's getting the raw materials, building the car inc the batteries and running it for 150,000 miles then disposing of it works out at WAY less pollution overall than building a gas car and driving that for 150,000 miles. And over there it will be even less pollution on electric cars (compared to gas) as you have so many big engines gas powered cars where fuel is so much cheaper than most of the industrialised world that far more people over there can afford to run V8s etc....you could drive all day here and perhaps see one or perhaps two V8 engined cars. Also here we now produce around 50% of our power through renewables (wind, solar, wave)....so the C02 cost of generating electricity to run cars is getting less everyday. On average most electric powered cars total life C02 output is about 43% less than even the most economical diesel small car (based on average figures of the four or five sites I googled on the subject....YMMV!).....and that figure improves a lot in countries with less fossil fuel generated electricity.

That said....Ive driven a few electric cars recently....the Tesla S was awesome....fastest accelerating car ive ever driven....almost scary in "Ludicrous" mode!.....but they completely lack any soul or feel that you get with an IC car. More like a domestic appliance to get you from A to B than a living breathing entity that is a well engineered gas or even diesel car ....not for me.

[green69rt]

Also, Houston has some of the dirtiest air and we just don't want to contribute.

Hold on for a moment, please realize that the following is not an attack!
Just because the car itself does not pollute, it does not mean that NO pollution exists to build the car or to support the use of it. You are only seeing the car itself.
Take for example the poor, misguided people that say that they do not hunt, they buy meat from the grocery store because it is more humane. Huh?
The result for the animal is the same, it is just the final consumer that never sees all the steps that is required to get the product to them.
New gasoline engines run so clean, I wonder if the electric car is actually a net positive. With internal combustion, you do have to consider the effects of oil refining but in doing so, natural gas is also extracted. How do we generate electricity? In some cases, with natural gas. I am more open minded than I used to be about the subject but I still come back to the efforts and impacts that the batteries have on the environment compared to what gasoline powered vehicles do. Mining for materials, manufacturing, the need to charge them and the eventual disposal. Can the used up batteries be recycled with any success? For me, I think of used batteries as far more harmful than used oil. Oil can be burned in heaters, used to make asphalt and tires, recycled into motor oil again, etc.  If the recycled electric car batteries can be somehow recycled to something useful, I would be swayed a little more toward accepting them. I'm not stating that they can't, I simply do not know the facts of it.
I will admit that the elimination for the need of oil, filters and kitty litter to clean up spills is pretty cool.

I didn't take it as an attack and I try not to dismiss others thoughts.  You give some good points and many people don't think about the side effects of new technology.  And we could get to a long discussion about all the issues around the so-called green movement or the fossil fuels lobby, etc, etc, etc.  Sometimes it does take a little work to figure out what is best.  And now we're starting to get away from the OP subject.  Hope he gets some thoughts to work with.

[GMP440]

       Something to consider that has not been brought up in this thread; resale value.  What will the resale value, for example, an 8 to 10 year old Tesla will have.  
 Right now, batteries are only good for about 8 years.  What do you do when it's time to trade in or do a private sale and those batteries need replacement?  
 How much depreciation will that vehicle see?  These vehicles may not do well in the secondary market.  It all comes down to infrasture and increasing battery technology.

[stripedelete]

      Something to consider that has not been brought up in this thread; resale value.  What will the resale value, for example, an 8 to 10 year old Tesla will have.  
 Right now, batteries are only good for about 8 years.  What do you do when it's time to trade in or do a private sale and those batteries need replacement?  
 How much depreciation will that vehicle see?  These vehicles may not do well in the secondary market.  It all comes down to infrasture and increasing battery technology.

Good question.  What's happening right now with used Nissan Leaf?  I would think that might be a look into the future.

[GMP440]

      Something to consider that has not been brought up in this thread; resale value.  What will the resale value, for example, an 8 to 10 year old Tesla will have.  
 Right now, batteries are only good for about 8 years.  What do you do when it's time to trade in or do a private sale and those batteries need replacement?  
 How much depreciation will that vehicle see?  These vehicles may not do well in the secondary market.  It all comes down to infrasture and increasing battery technology.

Good question.  What's happening right now with used Nissan Leaf?  I would think that might be a look into the future.

   Well, looked up 2011 Nissan Leafs for sale.  Asking prices are around $5000.  Batteries on those will need to be changed soon and that cost is about $5500.  So, in the end, after buying the car and replacing the batteries, you're up to $10,500.  Looking at that it makes no financial sense to buy one used.  Looks like the resale value won't look good unless you buy one 2 - 3 years old.

[Fitz73Chrgr]

Telsa is touting that they will soon have "million-mile" batteries.  That company, as well as several others, are working on ways to use old EV batteries for grid power storage. 

I don't think there is any question that EVs are the future.  Oil is not renewable, so it is time.  Don't worry, our has guzzlers won't be outlawed.  But, I can see a future where gasoline is harder to find. 

I will likely purchase an EV in the next few years.  I really like the Rivian R1T/R1S, but the price needs to come down.

[Aero426]

Telsa is touting that they will soon have "million-mile" batteries.  That company, as well as several others, are working on ways to use old EV batteries for grid power storage. 

This is great, but it is also a nice way of saying that they still do not have a way to recycle the batteries.     

[funknut]

Lithium batteries are recyclable, but why recycle if you can still get good, usable life out of them?  Use them in cars, then for grid storage, then when they're depleted, recycle.

There is some amazing battery tech on the horizon. Look up Sodium "glass batteries" if you're so inclined.  Greatly improved energy density without the fickle Lithium. They are making good progress on the cathodes, not many more hurdles after that.

[RiverRaider]

How well do electrics do in the -20F to -30F temps?  I know two people that have electric cars and neither of them drive them in the winter in Wisconsin.
They both say its because of the sodium chloride, magnesium chloride and all the other winter deicing brews that get applied to our roads but when pressed
they really don't know if the cold itself would be a issue.

[green69rt]

Also, Houston has some of the dirtiest air and we just don't want to contribute.


So your wife will never ride with you in your Charger so you will be the only one that will contribute 

Missed this note. 

No, she keeps bugging me to get it on the road.  She drove my old RT while we lived in Norfolk Virginia.  Drove it 130MPH while racing some guys in a Torino.   Beat the snot out of them.  Now wants to see what this one will do.

[alfaitalia]

Tesla loose money on every car they sell. When the Big Boys like Merc, BMW and the VW group and others get properly into EVs they will be better and cheaper than the small Tesla company can ever do and I suspect Tesla will stop building cars making  their used value very low. I was reading in a news journal (whilst waiting for the dentist!!) that this has always been Musks plan....to build the car as a show case to show what his batteries can do and then, when everyone else sees what possible and builds the competition cars he will walk away from car production to be the dominant World leader is advanced battery production for EVs....sounds like a plan to me.

[funknut]

Tesla cars are profitable on their own, what is costing Tesla heaps of money is all the buildout they are doing for the factories to ramp production.

I don't doubt Elon is looking beyond electric cars, but it seems unlikely that they would spend billions of dollars to build out the gigafactories just to walk away in a few years time.  The auto industry has had 8 years since the Model S launched to get in the game and they are just now introducing electric cars that can compete with Tesla on range.

Will Tesla be a dramatically different company in another 10 years?  I'm not so sure, they are just now hitting their stride.

[Aero426]

How well do electrics do in the -20F to -30F temps?  I know two people that have electric cars and neither of them drive them in the winter in Wisconsin.
They both say its because of the sodium chloride, magnesium chloride and all the other winter deicing brews that get applied to our roads but when pressed
they really don't know if the cold itself would be a issue.

Plan on a significant reduction in range in very cold temps.     If you can still pull 200 miles in the cold,  you can charge it up overnight at home, or whatever.     However, good luck charging it up at your deer camp.  

I would not expect corrosion to be any different from a gasoline car.     The typical early adopter of electrics are people who view the car as a device, not unlike the latest IPhone or tech gadget.     Most will trade out of it for the next big thing before the car gets too old.     A ten year old Leaf or Chevy Bolt will have the resale value of a Nokia flip phone.  

[70 sublime]

Yes I think the resale value has a lot to do with getting into an electric or not

Any of the used ones I have seen for sale seem to be new enough that the sellers remembers how much they paid for it and are picking a price based on that
I look at a used electric and think how much is it going to cost me to keep it running for another 5 years

For now I believe committing to a new electric right is also committing to trading in every 2-3 years and paying what ever the dealership says they want to screw you by 

[GMP440]

Yes I think the resale value has a lot to do with getting into an electric or not

Any of the used ones I have seen for sale seem to be new enough that the sellers remembers how much they paid for it and are picking a price based on that
I look at a used electric and think how much is it going to cost me to keep it running for another 5 years

For now I believe committing to a new electric right is also committing to trading in every 2-3 years and paying what ever the dealership says they want to screw you by 

    In reference to the last statement;  I agree if you trade every 2 - 3 years then there will be buyers willing to pick them up on the secondary market.  But as time goes on not so much. 
  I bet most of these will end up in the salvage yards. It just goes back to and relates to a statement I made in a previous post; who's going to spend the $6000 to replace battery packs in an electric car , that after a number of years may only be worth $4,000 - $5,000. 

[70 sublime]

Maybe a different way to look at an electric car would be how much does it cost in electricity to go 60 miles ??

I have a 2018 Ram truck that gets more miles on it as a car than a truck
I checked the fuel trip meter today
Since I am in Canada it says my average is 13.9 L per 100 km
Which works out to 13.9 L per 60 miles

So with the price of gas around here I am spending between $14 and $15 to go 60 miles just in fuel
Our over night hydro rates ( when a car would be re charged) are sitting at 12.8 cents per kw

So a question to electric car owners would be how many kw does it take you to go 60 miles on an average assuming no heat or air conditioning was used ?

If I can get this number I would be able to figure out what value I could buy a car for and break even just on fuel savings if I drive it far enough

I know I have to pay for extra car insurance for another car and wear and tear like tires etc ... 

[funknut]

The Tesla Model 3 performance uses 28-30 kWh per 100mi, so 17.5 kWh per 60 miles.  At your rates it's less than $2.25

[70 sublime]

I came across this video of some future concept cars

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DT47g-OvCGg&ab_channel=TopFives