1974 440 HP Has No Power

[c00nhunterjoe]

Agreed on the converter.  

I've never heard of a Silverado with stock 3k converter however

2006 2500 hd lt2 tow package.  6.0 gas. Powerbraking stock they  flash at 2800 due to pcm torque management but from a roll it flashes at 3. I have a programmer, no cats and full exhaust.

https://youtu.be/zuJDkj3c774

[Challenger340]

We did a bunch of Drag Strip testing with a 1976 smogger very low compression 440 back in the 80's..... which eventually with Cam Swap/Gearing/Tires etc., pulled down low 12's @ 4500 ft elevation installed in a 1974 Challenger.
However,
The biggest single improvement in E.T. at the Track.... and subsequent beatings hung on many competitors that prior stomped it on the street ...... was the installation of an 11" Torque Convertor.....
which not only dumped the 60ft time by 2 tenths and almost 1/2 a second off the Track E.T.,
but strangely and unexplained increased the mph in the 1/4 by 3 mph !

That's WHY I suggested a T/Convertor be part of any Cam Swap contemplated.... because of the dramatic effect it has in allowing a Cam change to be effective on the low-comp engines ?

So just somewhat surprised if the OP's chief complaint is still poor power ? let be for a moment that this thread was originally about better power in a smogger 440 ?
and,
that the Auto Trans calved and had to be rebuilt anyways.... that a Saturday Night Special type T/Convertor(cheap $) wasn't added to allow the low-pop 440 some room to run into the power band given the low/off idle characteristic is the weakest point ?
Especially since EFI($$$$) is now contemplated that dumps power even worse in the low-pop Engines ? 

I mean I apologize for the rant....
but somebody couldn't be doing a better job of going slower... slower... and slower with a low-pop 440 if they were trying to do just that ?
Because or the price of the EFI....
a guy could swap in a XE268 Comp or a Crower 271 HDP Cam & Lifters..... AND The Saturday Night Special type Convertor.... and see a real and dramatic improvement in get up and GO ?
Makes NO sense to me ?

[INTMD8]

2006 2500 hd lt2 tow package.  6.0 gas. Powerbraking stock they  flash at 2800 due to pcm torque management but from a roll it flashes at 3. I have a programmer, no cats and full exhaust.

Odd, appears to just be downshifting.  I've calibrated a ton of those trucks. With torque management removed they foot brake/flash to 1600 at best.

Have also installed a ton of 2800-3200 converters in them which are noticeably looser (though still not too loose for normal driving)

[c00nhunterjoe]

2006 2500 hd lt2 tow package.  6.0 gas. Powerbraking stock they  flash at 2800 due to pcm torque management but from a roll it flashes at 3. I have a programmer, no cats and full exhaust.

Odd, appears to just be downshifting.  I've calibrated a ton of those trucks. With torque management removed they foot brake/flash to 1600 at best.

Have also installed a ton of 2800-3200 converters in them which are noticeably looser (though still not too loose for normal driving)

I assure you, it is a factory converter from gm for this model. The downshift is clear when it goes from 3 to 3500. Stock stall for this model is 2600-2800. The 1600 is not non hd/ earlier 4l80s. 05 and 06 hd 4l80s with tow and snow plow prep get the loose one.

[c00nhunterjoe]

Just took these. Cant foot brake it over 2500, spins the tires. 2nd video has it in 2nd gear rolling into it as i wasnt sure if it would stay in 2nd. Plain as day what the tach says. No downshifts. 2800ish+ on a cold trans. Gm part number 12491334

https://youtu.be/bFWRjZpjGSQ

https://youtu.be/KdLaukB-w70

[tonyskala]

So I probably should have told you folks. The transmission guy told me the converter in the car was
Street Master 24-25 He said it was a 2500 stall speed and actually a pretty good converter and looked fairly new.

So I left it.

I get Challenger340  frustration. I Was sort of just writing down what I have been doing to the car in this thread.

But I probably should have been a little more informative of my intentions on this car. I intend to drive it like a daily driver. I have been into gasoline my entire life and the only thing Dodge I have owned before this charger is a 2004 Dodge Dakota 4x4 with a V8, that my wife wants me to get rid of and I will never ever ever ever get rid of. I love that truck. It has been rock solid and I beat the living piss out of it.

Anyway the EFI is more for reliability. I have used a sniper before and it improved my gas mileage, made the car more reliable to drive, and actually gave me more umphhh. I might have been that it more responsive but it did make the car more enjoyable to drive.

The issue I am having is I have that Tesla and have been spoiled by it. One of the GTOs I have has all QA1 Suspension viking coilovers an EZ EFI I spent close to 11K on suspension, brakes and chasis on it. I thought the car was awesome and so did everyone else who has driven it and I loved driving it until I got spoiled by the Tesla. Now I think it is a dog of an old car and it still handles like it is on rails. That Tesla has just over 730HP and it is all wheel drive. I took it to Sears point about 2 years ago and my best was 11.342 at 114MPH. That was with all my bullsh1t in the car. I have tried to make the car break loose at 50 mph on a corner and it hugged the road like stripper on a pole in Las Vegas. It is an amazing car. It has just spoiled me

So I want to drive this Charger and actually enjoy it. Not keep it int he garage and rub it with a cloth diaper on weekends. I would like to get a little more pep out of eventually. But for now it is was just fine until the brakes went out but it was a perfect opportunity to swap them over to disks. and redo all the suspension since it is largely apart.

I am not a complete idiot with engines. Just not sharp on older Mopars. SO I do appreciate the Mopar expertise you are all providing me. I think once all the suspension and brakes are all finished up I will just get the engine from the guy down in LA and drop it in sans edelbrock kit.

Then later on when I retire or as a present for one of the kids graduation in 15 years I will take the car apart and build a true monster out of it. But for the immediate I just want something that is good enough.

And for the record... Those lower control arm bushings are a pain in the ass to remove and press back in.

[INTMD8]

Just took these. Cant foot brake it over 2500, spins the tires. 2nd video has it in 2nd gear rolling into it as i wasnt sure if it would stay in 2nd. Plain as day what the tach says. No downshifts. 2800ish+ on a cold trans. Gm part number 12491334

https://youtu.be/bFWRjZpjGSQ

https://youtu.be/KdLaukB-w70

Yes that 4l80 converter is probably the highest stock stall you can find. More like 2200-2300 rather than 3000 anyway, from a roll doesn't really mean anything.  I think if you scanned it you would be surprised to see the difference between the factory tach and what it actually is. Also can just log TCC slip

[Nacho-RT74]

change the pistons would be the first step to get at least the same "glory" from the older days... then the rest accordingly to your wishes/needs

( which has been said from the begining )

[c00nhunterjoe]

Just took these. Cant foot brake it over 2500, spins the tires. 2nd video has it in 2nd gear rolling into it as i wasnt sure if it would stay in 2nd. Plain as day what the tach says. No downshifts. 2800ish+ on a cold trans. Gm part number 12491334

https://youtu.be/bFWRjZpjGSQ

https://youtu.be/KdLaukB-w70

Yes that 4l80 converter is probably the highest stock stall you can find. More like 2200-2300 rather than 3000 anyway, from a roll doesn't really mean anything.  I think if you scanned it you would be surprised to see the difference between the factory tach and what it actually is. Also can just log TCC slip

Not following the continued disbelief. It is rated from gm as 2600-2800. Try a quick internet search. My tach is accurate and i have logged data on the modis. It is not turning 2200. The roll is important here as i have not eliminated torque management which pulls power in the situation.

[INTMD8]

You're not following, ok.  First it's 3000, then it's, won't footbrake over 2500, then it's 2600-2800 from a roll.

From a roll you would need to log TCC slip, whatever the rpm is means nothing.  If you ran it up to 50 in 2nd you could say it's a 4000 converter.

Brake tq management is not limiting flash rpm if the limitation is tire spin. What would more power do other than spin the tires even more?

Your tach may be accurate but most are not.

That and, your truck is programmed to idle at 575rpm and your tach shows it at 800+.

The continued disbelief is because you said your truck came with a 3000 converter stock and it didn't because none of them did, that's all.

Anyway, sorry OP for taking this off track and good luck with the combo, you got some good advice here.

[c00nhunterjoe]

You're not following, ok.  First it's 3000, then it's, won't footbrake over 2500, then it's 2600-2800 from a roll.

From a roll you would need to log TCC slip, whatever the rpm is means nothing.  If you ran it up to 50 in 2nd you could say it's a 4000 converter.

Brake tq management is not limiting flash rpm if the limitation is tire spin. What would more power do other than spin the tires even more?

Your tach may be accurate but most are not.

That and, your truck is programmed to idle at 575rpm and your tach shows it at 800+.

The continued disbelief is because you said your truck came with a 3000 converter stock and it didn't because none of them did, that's all.

Anyway, sorry OP for taking this off track and good luck with the combo, you got some good advice here.

And you said its a 1600, that no trucks came with looser converters. I could take video off the scanner and you would still argue against it. I clearly stated stock flashes 2600-2800. I gave you the part number. It is common knowledge and a quick internet search would confirm the numbers against other truck owners. Call gm and tell them they are wrong. The quick videos i took with it  from a roll gets it out of the torque management window. Clearly i was not rolling the rpm up to make false claims or make it downshift as you stated. I have an 8" converter in my charger that will footbrake to 6,000. However i can spin the tires at 2,000. Does that now mean its only a 2,000 converter?

[INTMD8]

Edit again. I've been thinking about this and to be honest, I feel like I react to you unfairly based on past interaction.

For that I apologize.  If you like, send me your truck ecu and I'll program out/or reduce the torque management and change whatever else you like.

Or pm me more details about it and I may have one on the shelf I could flash for you. (if that's something you would even care about).

[Challenger340]

So I probably should have told you folks. The transmission guy told me the converter in the car was
Street Master 24-25 He said it was a 2500 stall speed and actually a pretty good converter and looked fairly new.

So I left it.

I'm calling BULLSH*T on your Trans Guy..... and this thread
  how in the world that Convertor miraculously got behind a sagged smogger 440 all by itself that was running poorly..... is more than just a little fairy tale'ish.

Because if it was a 24-2500 stall ?
you wouldn't be here complaining about power, and the smogger would roast the hynnies when tasked outa the hole.

And Sniper EFI's have reliability issues behind any engine that spews any hydrocarbons.... ie: oil burners, or even tired engines with blowby where at least 'some' HC's are sneaking past = keeps throwing the O2 out and into closed/open loop dumping the learn.
That's why EFO don't work real well on the smogger low-pop 440's because they always did pollute somewhat especially with any miles on them ?

I smell someone in the background here filling ur head with a bunch of horse pitooee BS ? and pipedreams ?
THAT....  or you already have ur own precieved fantasies of how things work, so fill ur boots, .....  so I'm out..... IMO, you are going to spend nothing but money going nowhere fast.

[Nacho-RT74]

here a converter stall chart for later engines. Can't tell the year of this FSM, but since it appears the 360, must be of course 74 and lates. Stock stall converter for HiPo was already rated on that rate your car supossely has. But Chrysler just used 2 or 3 convertors for all the engines, just reacting different behind certain engines.

Sure some aftermarket TCs will respond better than stock units.

[John_Kunkel]

The pic above is one of mine and it's '78 model year.

'77 was the last year for the 11 3/4" converter and '74 was the first year the 10 3/4" converter was used behind the 440 HP. As the chart shows, factory rated stall speeds were close to 3000 even in a smogged 440.

The '75 chart below shows the difference in stall speed the smaller converter makes.

[Nacho-RT74]

I thought it was 77 or so because the 318 HI ALT which I think was 4 bbls and used on M bodies ?

[c00nhunterjoe]

Edit again. I've been thinking about this and to be honest, I feel like I react to you unfairly based on past interaction.

For that I apologize.  If you like, send me your truck ecu and I'll program out/or reduce the torque management and change whatever else you like.

Or pm me more details about it and I may have one on the shelf I could flash for you. (if that's something you would even care about).

No problem. Sometimes its hard to follow conversations and intentions when it is via keyboard. I have not changed to a custom tune on this truck yet as i am putting long tubes on it but have not installed tyem yet. Appreciate the offer.

[c00nhunterjoe]

So I probably should have told you folks. The transmission guy told me the converter in the car was
Street Master 24-25 He said it was a 2500 stall speed and actually a pretty good converter and looked fairly new.

So I left it.

I'm calling BULLSH*T on your Trans Guy..... and this thread
  how in the world that Convertor miraculously got behind a sagged smogger 440 all by itself that was running poorly..... is more than just a little fairy tale'ish.

Because if it was a 24-2500 stall ?
you wouldn't be here complaining about power, and the smogger would roast the hynnies when tasked outa the hole.

And Sniper EFI's have reliability issues behind any engine that spews any hydrocarbons.... ie: oil burners, or even tired engines with blowby where at least 'some' HC's are sneaking past = keeps throwing the O2 out and into closed/open loop dumping the learn.
That's why EFO don't work real well on the smogger low-pop 440's because they always did pollute somewhat especially with any miles on them ?

I smell someone in the background here filling ur head with a bunch of horse pitooee BS ? and pipedreams ?
THAT....  or you already have ur own precieved fantasies of how things work, so fill ur boots, .....  so I'm out..... IMO, you are going to spend nothing but money going nowhere fast.

Agreed. Lots of red flags.

[INTMD8]

Edit again. I've been thinking about this and to be honest, I feel like I react to you unfairly based on past interaction.

For that I apologize.  If you like, send me your truck ecu and I'll program out/or reduce the torque management and change whatever else you like.

Or pm me more details about it and I may have one on the shelf I could flash for you. (if that's something you would even care about).

No problem. Sometimes its hard to follow conversations and intentions when it is via keyboard. I have not changed to a custom tune on this truck yet as i am putting long tubes on it but have not installed tyem yet. Appreciate the offer.

Well if you put the longtubes on and want rear o2's gone or whatever else, just let me know

[tonyskala]

Well thanks for participating. Not that you need my permission to leave or continue to participate but go with God, Alah, Jehova, FSM, or nothing. I appreciated the effort regardless.

I was not there when he separated it. I asked about putting in a higher stall torque converter. He said it was pretty new and it was fine and could be reused.

So I think I mentioned, I got the car from a consignment center. My brother law and I think that it was in a partial state of assembly when the fella passed away and his wife hired a someone to get it running and try to sell it. But what was odd was the work that had been done looked really good and there were lots of quality parts. Really nice stainless exhaust, good headers, gen1 Petronix, MDS ignition, Accell wires, the shorty spark plugs, the spark plug blankets, most of the bolts were ARP, had an orbital yellow top battery,  the interior was all redone and looks really really good 8/10 and the paint is actually really nice, 8/10.. especially for being black.

But when we got it, the manifold discolored after like 30 min of running it hard. Then we looked at the sealants and they look pretty fresh. The carb on it was a 600cfm and it really looked like someone stepped in and just made it run, threw some paint on it to mak eit look nice.
But someone prior was taking their time with it and putting some real effort, time and money into it.

So I dont know what was done to the car prior. I only know what I saw I have. And I was expecting a little more from a 440. So appreciate the comments, but you dont have to get angry. I only know what I was told and what I saw I have. I am trying to do the car justice. In my opinion it doesn't measure to my expectations of a 440 and compression that low and that much discrepancy in numbers between the cylinders no matter what brand you like Ford, Chevy, or Dodge is problematic.

I get some folks just dont like EFi and I am not trying to convert anyone. I have had both and EFI and multiple carbs and they both worked well for me. On 2 cars I had efi and it was pretty good once past the tuning. And the 4 barrel carb worked really well on a Pontiac.


So when I was in Iraq part of my route was Taji. There was a broken Army m1a2 that had a destroyed Fuel Control Module. It actually got burne when they got pelted with 1 gallon containers filled with diesel and fuel and set on fire. They could not get this part and that tank was effectively out of commission because of the module. Well I happened to know that the FCM was the same thing for the m1a2 engine that was in the marine Super Cobra and I happen to know some engines that just came out of phase at Balad. So I told the mechanic and he did not believe me. I tried explaining although they had different nsn's the only difference was the tank ecm was not rated for flight. So when I got back to Balad I asked the marine maintenance officer if I could fill out the card and canabilize the part. He did not care as long as I filled out the paperwork and signed for it. So I did and 2 days later I brought the FCM to the maintenance fella at Taji. He said just becuase it looked the same did not mean it would work. So since they had the power pack out any way they bolted the FCM on and dropped in the power pack. it is pretty modular and they do it all the time. So it doesn tno take a huge amonut of effort.  It started up and worked. They drove it around..... tried diesel, and jp8 and it kept working. They called the commander down and explained that some flight captain brought them an aviation part to make the tank work. Would he sign off on the paper work and release the tank from maintenance. A working tank is better than no tank. So he tranfered the part and relesaed the tank. Now why am I telling you this story. because later when that tank went to depot for overhaul there was a part on it that was not supposed to be on it let alone making the thing work. Point is I know transmatic told me the stall on that thing was 2500 and I did not need to change it. I dont know how it got in there but that is what the dude told me. I guess he could have lied because it was a friday when i went to get the car and maybe he wanted the floor space. Or maybe the torque converter that was in there was the one he told me was in there. I dont know. I dont know why the carb for this thing was a 600 and there was no air cleaner. I dont know why he has a 400 dollar blue tooth stereo in the thing with monster cable but only 1 speaker that is a 6x9 realistic.... Yeah from radio shack.

So anyway. Not trying to be a jerk. I reference this thread more than you think and I appreciated the advice from all of you regardless of tone or believability.

[Challenger340]

No problem, not angry.....
Been Machining/Building/Assembling and Dyno'ing 440/426 Hemi Mopar Hot Rod/Drag Engines at my Shop for some of the best in North America going on 40 years now.... and getting paid very well to do so ?
and yes....
we Sell Sniper EFI Kits regularly to the Street/Resto crowd.... LOTS of them !

Just say'in.....and in my opinion only
you do whatever you feel is right.... which it seems you are gonna do no matter what anybody else says including me.

example:
This thread is about a 440 smogger 'NO POWER.
I relate to you we did a lot of drag strip testing on a smogger 440 back in the day..... and one of the BIGGEST performance gains was the addition of a Saturday Night Special style T/Convertor .... which really allowed the smogger in conjunction with a small Cam to HIT into it's powerband.
Miraculously..... your Car already has one ! Because your Trans guy said so right ?

I attempt to tell you we've had Customer's who have experienced poor results installing Sniper EFI systems on worn/sacked out/high mile smogger 440's....just relating our opinion/experience only...and because I thought the Exhaust HC pollutants escaping pollute the O2 and dump the CPU learn, more as a 'caution' for you to consider in assessing your 'NO POWER' 440 beforehand than anything ?
And again miraculously.....
YOU categorize me as someone who may not like EFI and YOU 'get it' ?
because as you say....
I get some folks just dont like EFi and I am not trying to convert anyone. I have had both and EFI and multiple carbs and they both worked well for me. On 2 cars I had efi and it was pretty good once past the tuning. And the 4 barrel carb worked really well on a Pontiac

I ain't 'some folks'... I Sell LOTS the Sniper EFI Kits at my Shop ?
all I was trying to do as someone with experience on feedback from Customers.... was warn you to assess the 440 Engine condition thoroughly to avoid a potential pitfall before spending $$ on EFI ?
How that gets construed in your mind that I potentially may not like EFI is beyond me ?
All I know.....  is it seems to me anyways....  that you maybe are not 'hearing' what others are saying in trying to help you ?

Fill ur Boots !
Just say'in.....
I ain't trying to be a jerk here either, nor am I angry..... just wish you GOOD LUCK with your 440 project OK ? Carry on !

BTW,
Do you know where geographically two of the M1A1 Turbine Engines were shipped by truck convoy for R & D on the Fuel Control System upgrade back in the mid 1990's ?
Hint: out of country to a friendly ally.

[c00nhunterjoe]

An nsn is just a military assigned stock number. As you stated, the parts were actually the same. Not the same story on the converters in the car. I too am a former abrams mechanic l, actually test officer. I wrote many 9f the books you were using to repair them. Out of curiosity because you used several terms along the story- what actual part did you replace? And my personal best for power pack removal from engine shutdown to on the ground is 6 minutes- alone.

[ACUDANUT]

And my personal best for power pack removal from engine shutdown to on the ground is 6 minutes- alone. Yeah, right.

[c00nhunterjoe]

And my personal best for power pack removal from engine shutdown to on the ground is 6 minutes- alone. Yeah, right.

No reason to lie. When you are supporting a test running 7 days a week, 14 hour shifts over night and its running smooth. You get bored. Its not hard to remove the powerpack from an abrams. It is modular and designed to be done quick and efficiently. Im sure our OP can attest to that.

[tonyskala]

An nsn is just a military assigned stock number. As you stated, the parts were actually the same. Not the same story on the converters in the car. I too am a former abrams mechanic l, actually test officer. I wrote many 9f the books you were using to repair them. Out of curiosity because you used several terms along the story- what actual part did you replace? And my personal best for power pack removal from engine shutdown to on the ground is 6 minutes- alone.

Oh it appears i miss led you I am not a heavy vehicle mechanic. I was a flight platoon leader and later a maintenance test pilot. I happened to have stumbled on that part swap info out of sheer luck.

I was the 2nd from last class at Fort Rucker that went through BCS in a UH1. One day we were hovering on a pad at Lowe about to leave on a training flight. My instructor pilot noticed this other instructor pilot and his students jumping up and down trying to get our attention before we took off. My IP told me to set it down and the other IP started running over and his students had fire extinguishers. My IP opened his door and the the other IP had a real short conversation with him at the end of which my IP said "emergency engine shut down", So I started doing it and he cut he fuel. They brought a tug and dolly out and took the aircraft off the pad and long story short There was something called a FUEL CONTROL MODULE that was installed by Dynacorp ( Civilian Maintenance ) that was not rated for flight. Turns out they did it on a few aircraft because they get bonus for aircraft uptime. The UH1 power train is virtually identical to the Abrams, and the old Army Cobras. The Marine Zulu model cobras are essentially the same as well but they have 2 engines and fully articulated rotors. I happened to be in the room when they were talking about it and thought that was pretty innovative that the power train was applied to the tanks and helicopters. Apparently the parts can traverse from aviation to ground applications with out any issue, But the inverse is not allowed. So we probably did more harm than good because that part could never be used in aviation again. They have extremely accurate time before overhaul logs for aviation. I think later revisions this part was upgraded to a digital component called digital engine control module (decu). This was about 15 years ago.