1974 440 HP Has No Power

[timmycharger]

I tend to listen and read things in literal terms. Having stated that......

The 1974 440 'HP' engines had/have/has NO POWER whatsoever anyways, even back when new.
Cam changes can help somewhat ?
but in stock form by 1972 a complete lack of pressure, quench and turbulence had all relegated the 440's into nuetered wannabe's of their forerunner torque monster predecessors.

NO power whatsoever? Really? If placed in a car, the car could not move?
Be serious, man. Road tests of the day probably showed a mid to high 16 second quarter mile from a 74 440 powered vehicle. Not nearly as powerful as a 67-72 model but not exactly a slant six either.
Quench? Aside from the closed chambered 516 and 915 heads, what engines back then actually had any quench anyway?
Pistons .150 in the hole, weaker cam timing, single exhaust through log manifolds and retarded ignition timing were as much to blame as anything.
I suggest a compression test, maybe even degree the cam to get an idea of the specs. Some power can be found through tuning without a rebuild.

Calling BS on this.. So everything you say is literal, you never exaggerate or use metaphors etc?  C'mon man, seems to me you are just trying to bust balls..

[Challenger340]

I tend to listen and read things in literal terms. Having stated that......

The 1974 440 'HP' engines had/have/has NO POWER whatsoever anyways, even back when new.
Cam changes can help somewhat ?
but in stock form by 1972 a complete lack of pressure, quench and turbulence had all relegated the 440's into nuetered wannabe's of their forerunner torque monster predecessors.

NO power whatsoever? Really? If placed in a car, the car could not move?
Be serious, man. Road tests of the day probably showed a mid to high 16 second quarter mile from a 74 440 powered vehicle. Not nearly as powerful as a 67-72 model but not exactly a slant six either.
Quench? Aside from the closed chambered 516 and 915 heads, what engines back then actually had any quench anyway?
Pistons .150 in the hole, weaker cam timing, single exhaust through log manifolds and retarded ignition timing were as much to blame as anything.
I suggest a compression test, maybe even degree the cam to get an idea of the specs. Some power can be found through tuning without a rebuild.

Calling BS on this.. So everything you say is literal, you never exaggerate or use metaphors etc?  C'mon man, seems to me you are just trying to bust balls..

What's wriong with that guy ?

By the 1974 hp 440's having no power I meant relatively, figuratively speaking, and comparably to other Mopar of the day.... namely the 68/69 440 brethren.
However,
I can quite clearly remember blowing the doors off buddy's 1973 Charger factory 440 hp 4 speed....... with a stock 1969 383 powered 4spd Roadrunner.... wasn't even a contest !
By the 3rd gear shift I was at least 3 car lengths ahead and still widening the gap.

So Korn Dog..... do you now want to pluck that somehow there must be a set of 1973 Charger doors in a ditch somewhere ?

[b5blue]

  Oh Boy a pissing contest! I use to shame so called "Muscle Cars" with a 63 TR4. Sig Erson race cam/Dual side draft DCOE Webbers with hand made tube intake and header flowed head on 12 to 1 piston/sleeve mounted to a 4 speed with OD. So yea about the 5th time you heard the tires chirp my tail lights were way in front and you were a clueless looser. 
  Of course none of this helps OP in the slightest   

[Challenger340]

So back on topic after some very 'special' imput (in the Olympic sense of the word)

Cam and Distributor Timing Curve changes can help the 1974 engines..... specifically a very steep initial advance curve that pulls up closer to 20-22* by 1800-2000 rpm then totalling 'all-in' close to 36-37 by 2800-3,000 rpm.
If you don't have access to a machine to spin and adjust the advance curve ?
Try power timing it manually with the dizzy vacuum plugged(leave it plugged).... and take it right until it pings then back slightly, the target being to get the Full/Total advance as close to the 36-37* BTDC advance as possible then checked with a Timing Light.
and,
one of the best additions we found on those very low compression engines on the Auto Cars, albeit, ups the $ and labor investment was the addition of a Saturday Night Special type Torque Convertor. Something that gives an honest 2200-2400 stall is great even with 3.23 cogs.  
The extra Torque Multiplication down low just gives the low-pop engines a much needed bit of a 'run' into their power range where they can begin building cylinder pressure.

[Nacho-RT74]

Also I hate to mention it.. I can not find a trim or build tag. In pontiac speak there is a guy in Michigan that runs this place called Pontiac Historical Society. (PHS) so when ever you hear someone tell you there car is a GTO you pay like 80 bucks to this guy and he looks up the vin on microfiche and will print out the build sheet. From the build sheet you can 100% proof positive know how the car was built with every option it had when it rolled of the line.

Is there something equivalent in Mopar land? An entity I can pay and shoot the vin over to and they can tell me what I actually bought and how it looked when it left the factory?

I think that would be Galen Govier

http://galengovier.com/

And why is the front grill on this thing so damn expensive?

just the grill? WELCOME TO MOPAR WORLD LOL

Now you will know the reality of our World and why a decent car is so expensive against similars from Chebbbbbbie or Phords. Mopar are expensive not just because they are the best ( LOL ), but also because how hard and expensive  is the rebuild world for us

[XH29N0G]

Tony,

You just jumped into a scuffle.  Challenger340 knows what he is saying about engines.  He is one of the people to pay attention to.  There are others KD can also be.  But I get the impression Challenger340 won't cut corners and won't mince words.  Look to the proven engine combos.

I added my bit because I saw some things being said that I had read differently from others.

PS,  My first car was a 1969 Pontiac Lemans.  The second was the charger in the avatar.  I wish I still had that Pontiac, but that went long ago.

[Kern Dog]

So back on topic after some very 'special' imput (in the Olympic sense of the word)

Oh, the irony is T H I C K with this one! "Imput" ?   

A few of you missed the point.

There was power in the later 440s, just not nearly as much.
Your response should have been something to the effect of : "The later 440s were nowhere near as powerful as...OR the later 440s made about half the power....
You seem like a smart guy. It isn't helpful To just instantly dismiss a later engine instead of offering some advice on how to restore some guts to the castrated smog era engines.

[c00nhunterjoe]

I tend to listen and read things in literal terms. Having stated that......

The 1974 440 'HP' engines had/have/has NO POWER whatsoever anyways, even back when new.
Cam changes can help somewhat ?
but in stock form by 1972 a complete lack of pressure, quench and turbulence had all relegated the 440's into nuetered wannabe's of their forerunner torque monster predecessors.

NO power whatsoever? Really? If placed in a car, the car could not move?
Be serious, man. Road tests of the day probably showed a mid to high 16 second quarter mile from a 74 440 powered vehicle. Not nearly as powerful as a 67-72 model but not exactly a slant six either.
Quench? Aside from the closed chambered 516 and 915 heads, what engines back then actually had any quench anyway?
Pistons .150 in the hole, weaker cam timing, single exhaust through log manifolds and retarded ignition timing were as much to blame as anything.
I suggest a compression test, maybe even degree the cam to get an idea of the specs. Some power can be found through tuning without a rebuild.

My wifes 2.5 liter 4 cylinder nissan went 16.20s. A legit smog 440 is junk.

[cdr]

And here in lies the problem again

[Calif240]

Tony... welcome and where approximately are you located? I won't chime in on engine since these guys have more knowledge in their pinky than I do in my entire brain... However, I would be careful trying to fix it quickly. Do it right and start at the base in understanding what you have. I originally had granny gears in my rear-end and no matter what I did, it wasn't gonna feel like a muscle car. Once you figure out where you're starting, then you can plan your build. There's a bunch of great resources depending on what issues you uncover, and the guys are here have a ton of knowledge.

[b5blue]

He can pull the heads with the block in the bay and see. It could have a wiped cam from the wrong oil but the exact correct pistons for the heads. So much can be changed in 45 years. It could be rebuilt to perfection with some simple flaw holding it back. 
I really hope it's just a screwed up carb. he is replacing.

[Challenger340]

So back on topic after some very 'special' imput (in the Olympic sense of the word)

Oh, the irony is T H I C K with this one! "Imput" ?   

A few of you missed the point.

There was power in the later 440s, just not nearly as much.
Your response should have been something to the effect of : "The later 440s were nowhere near as powerful as...OR the later 440s made about half the power....
You seem like a smart guy. It isn't helpful To just instantly dismiss a later engine instead of offering some advice on how to restore some guts to the castrated smog era engines.

And Thank You for the "helpful" and much needed "imput" once again Corn Dog.....

BTW, please re-read here where I think I am truying to assist ?  Up to.... but excluding the already afore mentioned Cam Swap ?

So back on topic after some very 'special' imput (in the Olympic sense of the word)

Cam and Distributor Timing Curve changes can help the 1974 engines..... specifically a very steep initial advance curve that pulls up closer to 20-22* by 1800-2000 rpm then totalling 'all-in' close to 36-37 by 2800-3,000 rpm.
If you don't have access to a machine to spin and adjust the advance curve ?
Try power timing it manually with the dizzy vacuum plugged(leave it plugged).... and take it right until it pings then back slightly, the target being to get the Full/Total advance as close to the 36-37* BTDC advance as possible then checked with a Timing Light.
and,
one of the best additions we found on those very low compression engines on the Auto Cars, albeit, ups the $ and labor investment was the addition of a Saturday Night Special type Torque Convertor. Something that gives an honest 2200-2400 stall is great even with 3.23 cogs. 
The extra Torque Multiplication down low just gives the low-pop engines a much needed bit of a 'run' into their power range where they can begin building cylinder pressure.

[Challenger340]

He can pull the heads with the block in the bay and see. It could have a wiped cam from the wrong oil but the exact correct pistons for the heads. So much can be changed in 45 years. It could be rebuilt to perfection with some simple flaw holding it back. 
I really hope it's just a screwed up carb. he is replacing.

IMO,
This would seem good advice to diagnostics in determining just what a guy is working with here ? to assess potential ?

[Challenger340]

You don't HAVE to have Compression to make power.....
IQ52 (Jim LeRoy) for one has I think PROVEN that fact beyond contention, albeit, through bringing considerable knowledge/know-how to the table that may be above simple bolt-ons for most DIY guys, and by raising rpm ranges potential past where most would want it ?

Just say'in....
for the purposes of this discussion I think we're simply talking bolt-ons and tuning to enhance output on the later smog era 440's.

[tonyskala]

I can't tell you how much I appreciate all the info fellas.

I am going to put all this to good use.

Ok So here is what we figured out this weekend and what we did.

We set the timing to 10 degrees. We did not get to the Distributor Timing Curve but we intend to get to that probably Wednesday.  We adjusted the carb so it is idling really nice. Sounds great at idle. We put in 10 ounces of mystery oil in the crank case and 10 ounces in the fuel and 108 octane boost.

Ran the car for an hour. It with total and complete certainty had blow back in the engine. It was pushing smoke up through the dip stick and the breather on the valve cover. We spotted oil coming out of the breather so we replaced it with a K&N one. Drove it for another 30 min and filled up with gas again. Changed the fuel filter and the difference was immediately noticeable.

It stopped smoking, and the leaks are all gone. I degreased the engine and then pressure washed it. Came out on ready to remove the valve covers Sunday because that is where we thought the leaks were coming from. But it did not leak 1 drop of oil after driving it really hard and really long the previous day. Not 1 drop anywhere. So I did not pull off the valve covers so I still do not know what kind of heads are on this thing. Sunday and we did our compression check.

From the front driver side here is what we got
DS           PS
105         113
100         110
105         110
105.        115   

So the Driver side pressures are what I consider a lot lower than the passenger side. If I got these numbers on the GM I would probably rebuild it in the next 10K
But the searching we did sad this was with in tolerance but I always thought you wanted above 115.

Nevertheless all the spark plugs looked really good. Little brass brush to them before the went in and the car started right up.

We adjusted the linkage on the carb got new spring for it and did our best to connect the transmission set up spring and linkage. This is still foreign to me but my brother in law knew how to do it.

So driving it around the block and up and down the street it seems to have a little more pep to it. But we noticed reverse is extremely slow to engage and we think it has only gone into 3rd gear once.

Tach doesn't work but I am guessing at 55mph it is going 3500 to 4000 rpm so I know 3rd gear is not working or not adjusted properly.

Car doesn't not smoke any longer after hard driving and does not leak at all. So for now I can live with he engine power it is making. I think it a little better but I cant tell until that thing goes into third and right now it is just not doing it.

I called around and some guys have told me reverse and 3rd are tied together in a way I dont understand but they think the transmission is problematic. I am taking the car down to the place Wednesday in Oakland because I dont understand how the transmission works. My bother in law says he has done all he can with it and it is time go engage a professional.

I think the gears are 4.11's

So becuase the engine is at least running well I will skip anything further on it until we can get it to shift the gears properly.

So like I was saying I understand Pontiac a little better than mopar and to me this 440 engine just seems tired to me.

On the Pontiac's I have done. 1 was bone stock and one was a resto mod. I cant hunt parts down for  them and do the buy and try method. I dont have the finance to fiddle with multiple different configs until I find one I like.

I am looking at you folks or summit or jets to say "buy this package and you will get this type of performance". That is why I was leaning hard towards a kit. tried and proven. But I hear you guys.

I was looking at that edelbrock kit but one fella here pushed me onto a fella up in Wisconsin who says he can build a package out better than eddlebrock for cheaper. Eventually, I will go that route. but not sure how quickly I will get there. But thanks for the info on the CAM. And the better options. The CHEBBIES I have done as long at the bottom is good I can build out the top to drive performance. CAM, heads, intake and headers usually got me there. So that was why I was looking at the kit.

So I know you fellas dont know me from spit, but I promise if this car was something special I would do it justice. But this thing is a run of the mill 68 Charger that probably started out with a 318. I get the purist angle but this car is not the one to do it with. My other two went that route and it was expensive and in all honesty I dont enjoy them that much because I am worried about wearing out a part out or cracking a windshield or destroying the numbers matching block.

I am going to drive the piss out of this charger. That was the reason for the Sniper EFI. Reliability and I would have done it regardless. So I dont consider that wasted coin. Had it on a 68 Camaro and I was extremely happy with it.



And I dont want you folks getting testeee on  my account. I know mid seventies stuff from any manufacture had been neutered. I honestly dont know what I even have. I just expect this this 440 to at least behave stock. But it is just not doing what I expected it to have done. But I swear I am going to get it there.

[70 sublime]

The transmission shifting into third
Did you try moving the gear shift leaver farther forward towards the neutral notch on the gear shift to make sure the linkage was not just set up too short ?

[tonyskala]

Yeah, we moved it as far up as it would go and left 1/4 of an inch on the rod. From what we read reverse and 3rd share components. Transmatic in oakland is going to look at it for me on Wednesday. He said he will look at the linkage first, test pressures and see if it is just fine adjusting. But he seem to think since it is reverse and 3rd both having trouble and 3rd more often than not going into gear that the clutches for third is bad. First and second are solid. actually quite peppy.

He said the worst it would be is a rebuild. 1200.00 And he will put some advanced shift kit in it if he goes that way. but he said first he will do a check on it.

My real concern now is these low compression numbers. I dont have the ability to rebuild the bottom end. I would have to send it out. I am hoping someone knows more about these blocks than I do, But I suspect I will need to know what these heads are to actually determine if these compression numbers are actually that bad.

[cdr]

Initial timing needs to be 18 to 25 ish , total 39ish, vac advance on ported vacuum, you really need to have a dist recurved, in your case with out recurve ,, set it like I said with the vac advance unplugged, 10 initial timing will run like a pig,,,, Basic same thing Bob, Challenger 340 said

[tonyskala]

@cdr-

thanks. I will set it between 18 and 25 and a total of around 39  this week and circle back to you.

We will also do the advance curve.


Appreciate the info

[ACUDANUT]

"but in stock form by 1972 a complete lack of pressure, quench and turbulence had all relegated the 440's into nuetered wannabe's of their forerunner torque monster predecessors"
Sorry, what do you mean ?

[BSB67]

 

[c00nhunterjoe]

Blowing 105 psi is the classic 7.8:1 cast slugs.

[BSB67]

What a funny thread.

[cdr]

What a funny thread.

Good morning Russ, do you have some more pictures of your Charger, I thought I had saved some some from a site but I can't find them,
Thanks Charlie

[Challenger340]

"but in stock form by 1972 a complete lack of pressure, quench and turbulence had all relegated the 440's into nuetered wannabe's of their forerunner torque monster predecessors"
Sorry, what do you mean ?

That by 1972.... the 440 Engines lacked pressure, turbulence, and quench reducing efficiency at Torque/Horsepower compared to the earlier engines ?

By 'pressure' I meant dynamic C.R.'s suffered in the lower rpm range limiting Torque, and with the Piston so far down at TDC little 'remix' of the A/F charge occured closer to TDC..... and also related to poor scavenging, the 5 th cycle responsible for rpm range power production with the absolutely HUGE quench distance ?

I mean by 1968 all BB Mopar Heads were 'open' chambers of approx .100" which many would consider too large a quench distance anyways, nonetheless, on the 68/69 engines with a .020" Head gasket and Pistons .060" down hole on the 2.035" C.D. Pistons.......  the realtively quicker/hotter burn the ~9.5:1 still produced more pressure to get spent gases moving out the Exhaust Port.

For basic example only of some concepts : If you spark an A/F charge compressed to 160 psi it reaches peak combustion pressure/heat faster/sooner..... that an A/F charge only compressed at 120 psi.
Now think 'where' peak pressures/PUSH/heat can be placed on a Piston.... and.... remnant gases latent combustion

With some of the later smog engines using 1.99" and even worse 1.91" CD Pistons(and anything in between)..... not only were incipient ignition pressures reduced with the lower compression ratios but indeed 'peak' pressures/push on the Piston itself was reduced as more A/F was wasted burning out and through the Exhaust Port to reduce emissions(or so was the idea anyways).

Think of it this was as it relates to scavenging on overlap:
How do you increase Exhaust Port Flow ?
UP the pressure in the Combustion Chamber pushing the spent gases out the Exhaust Port !
Conversely...
reduce the pressure and Flow less....