1974 440 HP Has No Power

[tonyskala]

Full disclosure.
1. I drive a Tesla P85D
2. I own a 64 Pontiac GTO

I was more of a Pontiac fella. I literally stumbled into a find. Bought a 68 Charger with a 440 in it. Drove it around the block 1 time becuase bearing on the water pump was squealing so I did not really get on it.

Got it home changed the alternator, filters, oil, gas, a few lines, water pump and thermostat. Checked the timing it is fine, car sounds decent at idle.

Took it out yesterday and i was so disappointed in this thing, It has had it nuts clipped off. I am not sure if it is becuase I am used to the torque and power in the Tesla. But this 440 drinks gas like a fish and I dont think it would give a run against a honda accord a challenge.

Stamped on pad is

4T440HP a
23

i figure it is a 1974 Trenton built 440 High Power engine.
23 is most likely the assembly day but I don't know the month.

I dont know the cam in it, or what is inside the block. The heads are cast iron. I dont know what they are yet. We have not take off the valve covers.

So being a 74 this thing should at least make 290HP I doubt it is even cracking 200.

So what should I do? I was not planning to do much engine work to it. But I cant take this thing out. It is embarrassing.

Becuase I was not planning to do much to the engine budget is extreemly important.

I planned to put a Holly Sniper EFI on it and a 3 core Alum radiator on it, Disk brakes all the way around and viking shocks. Possibly wire harness. I can only tell the rear harness was hacked, Dont know about the cabin or the engine harness

So summit has this edlebrock kit.20872. It comes with Heads, cam, intake manifold, timing chain, lifters, gaskets, and bolts. Says it is at 2117.00 Then the guy says we need roller cams and push rods. Hoping to stay under 900 for that part.

I completely  rebuilt the Pontiac 389 and that dynos at 360 for 4K. So I am not sure if 3k for top end on the 440 is even close to being a deal. Plus Brother in law and I will have to do the work.

What can I do to sex this thing up on a budget?

[JB400]

Welcome to the forum.  I think the first thing you should do is a compression check.  It'd also let you do a read on the spark plugs.  Figure out the state of your engine first, then figure out what you have

[70 sublime]

http://www.moparts.org/Tech/Archive/motor/36.html

4T means 1974
440 hp 440 high performance
A means cylinders .020 over size bore
23 not sure

[Wingnut426]

What are the rear end gears in it? Maybe it has highway gears.  WINGNUT

[Kern Dog]

I have never had sex with a car. I'd advise against it. 
As far as making the car faster, there are plenty of things to do. First up....You said that the timing is fine. Can you give specifics? Mine is set to 19 degrees BTDC initial, 33 degrees total.  I also have 3.55 gears, 28" tires and an automatic trans. Mine runs strong.
Ignition timing, torque converter stall speed and axle gearing can really make a difference.

[70 sublime]

Another chart to compare HP for different years and sizes of motors

http://www.mymopar.com/enginespecs.htm

[tonyskala]

Thanks a million for the replies. I want to apologize because I out of my depth with Mopar cars. But this thing looked so nice and sounded really good when we first started it. As best we could tell none of the gauges worked at all. The air cleaner was missing and the water pump was squealing I knew it was about to go out so i did not stomp on it. Would not have mattered much because i was buying it no matter what. 

Ok so here is what I noticed.
The guy put some money into the car. It has decent exhaust (flowmasters) and it is all new. It has hooker headers, and those heat blankets on all the Wires. I looked them up and there like 10 dollars a piece. It has Accell header sparkplugs (They are shorter) and an Accell cap and rotor. Under it was a first generation Petronix. It had an Edelbrock 600 carb but we swapped it out and it now has a Edelbrock 750 on it. timing was also set to 32 and it was bang on. I pulled 2 spark plugs and they looked brand new.

So after we drove it for an hour we noticed the intake manifold started to discolor. So we suspect the gal just hired someone to get it to run and it probably did not have a intake manifold and he just stuck one on. It is data coded from 69 and is stock for that year. The Guy who owned it passed away and the car was on consignment.

We will take the valve covers off this weekend and see what the heads are. I planned to do a compression check this weekend but I am almost positive this engine is in good shape. It doesnt smoke make any odd noise or anything like that. It just lacks power.

I have to tell you this has weighed on me all damn day. I was supposed to be working today and I can get my mind off this car. All the wind is out of my sails and i can nto think of nothing else but how this thing would loose against a god damn 84 Yugo.

We were planning to check the gears this weekend as well. But it doesnt seem to rev too high. Doesnt have a tach but I know is is not revving high.

It has 18 inch rims from a newer charger but those got to go.



Also I hate to mention it.. I can not find a trim or build tag. In pontiac speak there is a guy in Michigan that runs this place called Pontiac Historical Society. (PHS) so when ever you hear someone tell you there car is a GTO you pay like 80 bucks to this guy and he looks up the vin on microfiche and will print out the build sheet. From the build sheet you can 100% proof positive know how the car was built with every option it had when it rolled of the line.

Is there something equivalent in Mopar land? An entity I can pay and shoot the vin over to and they can tell me what I actually bought and how it looked when it left the factory?

And why is the front grill on this thing so damn expensive?

[70 sublime]

There is no Mopar place to tell you what the build sheet is by the VIN 

68 Chargers will need a build sheet found inside the car to match a fender tag to the VIN tag because in 68 there was no VIN on the fender tag ( they started in 69 with VIN on fender tag )

Does your car have a VIN that starts with XP or XS ?
XS will mean it was a factory R/T
XP was just a regular car

The newer 440 motor has lower compression to help meet pollution standards of the day so are going to have a lot less zip

[Nacho-RT74]

just FYI, taking apart the changes made along the years with the castings upgrades (or downgrades depending on the POV ) on blocks, you just need to get the right pistons and will get the same juice from earlier years. A 440 block from 68 is practically the same than a 440 from 74.

74 440s should got cast crank instead forged from earlier versions, but the are very well capable to hold the earliers 440s HP power, but on a lighter crank ( so more power in the sum ). But you still can get a forged one and change it to emulate the earliers 440s.

So in the end, just built the 74 440 with 68 parts or better ones and won't have a diference. Block don't change between an HP or standard engine ( like on Chebbbbbbies ), is just about internal parts difference

[b5blue]

Correct compression like Nacho said by replacing pistons if from 1974. I used: http://www.mopartsracing.com/parts/Sidewinder.html as best value $$ aluminum heads for allowing higher compression W better flow and loosing 50LB dead weight. Others can recommend cam. Roller lifters and fuel injection are not needed and save big $$$.

[BrianShaughnessy]

A smogged down '74 440 has 8.2 compression ratio.   If it has stock 346 / 452 heads they are nominally 84 cc chambers.   A 69 440 had 10 to 1.

You can bolt on some 75 CC aluminum heads...  or a set of iron '67 closed chamber heads to bump it up.    Or change out the pistons.

It'd also be helpful if you can find out what cam is in it.   Somebody could have swapped in too big of a cam that doesn't work with low compression.

[Kern Dog]

A smogged down '74 440 has 8.2 compression ratio.   If it has stock 346 / 452 heads they are nominally 84 cc chambers.   A 69 440 had 10 to 1.
.

Factory specs are a mile off. A 1970 383 2 barrel rated at 8.7 to 1 actually calculates at 8.12 to one.
The 8.2 to 1 number is likely off a bit too.
Last month I CCd 4 heads. 2 906s, a 346 and a 452. ALL were 90 CCs except for one of the 906s that was 88 CCs ! That makes a huge difference. Also, if the engine has stock pistons but was rebuilt using a common Fel Pro blue head gasket, the compression is certainly in the mid to high 7s now since they are almost double the thickness of the stock steel head gasket.

[INTMD8]

My vote is just pull it and build it

[hemi-hampton]

My vote is just pull it and build it

Yeah, Just rebuild & Hi Performance build the entire Motor. Then you'll have to build trans (stall converter) & rear. (3.91 sure grip)

[tonyskala]

Wow - thanks for all the info fellas.

This vin is XP I knew it was not an RT.

Alright.. So today I bought the Holley Sniper EFI and the EFI tank pump and lines. I think I got out of it cheap at 1400, Another 3300 is all I am going to spend on the motor and thats it. That should get the the upper kit and the 3 core radiator.

I wanted to avoid pulliing the motor out and you fellas throwing around just rebuild it are killing me. Like it is choosing vanilla or chocolate ice cream.  I wish i could but I just dont have the coin to do it. I wish i did.

So If the compression test comes back poor, I will not have a choice. But I am pretty comfortable stating the engine was built proper. If it has to come out I will just get a hone and do .010 over. I cant afford alot of machine work.

I was going to get that summit Edelbrock kit 60872 and some roller rockers for it. That with the EFI and the billet pulley kit should about do it. It appears these have angled plugs to help with clearance with the headers.,,,,,,,,,,,      But after I saw b5blue 's post I am going to call up mopartsracing  and tell them my target numbers and see what they can do for me. I really want a kit or a tried and proven list. I cant do the buy and try on this one. I know it is lazzzy but I just cant spend the money doing it.


I will need to solicit all of your expertise on the roller rockers and rods. I see a brand named Procomp. But It appears to me they are Chinese manufactured and I saw 1 or 2 poor reviews. I was leaning towards Harland Sharp CSP-S70015KE but I am looking for anyone to set me straight.

If I have to pull this motor out of this thing my wife is going to kill me.

I wanted to upload some pictures but the board will not allow pictures over 400KB in size. I am trying to shrink them down.

And to you all I cant tell you how much I  appreciate all the input.

Like I said this is my first Mopar classic car. I am learning.,,,,, So thanks for the patience and the suggestions. i really appreciate it. 

[BrianShaughnessy]

A smogged down '74 440 has 8.2 compression ratio.   If it has stock 346 / 452 heads they are nominally 84 cc chambers.   A 69 440 had 10 to 1.
.

Factory specs are a mile off. A 1970 383 2 barrel rated at 8.7 to 1 actually calculates at 8.12 to one.
The 8.2 to 1 number is likely off a bit too.
Last month I CCd 4 heads. 2 906s, a 346 and a 452. ALL were 90 CCs except for one of the 906s that was 88 CCs ! That makes a huge difference. Also, if the engine has stock pistons but was rebuilt using a common Fel Pro blue head gasket, the compression is certainly in the mid to high 7s now since they are almost double the thickness of the stock steel head gasket.

Had a brain check and typed 84 instead of 88 CC.   Thanks for the reminder.    84 CC is the closed chamber Edelbrock aluminum head.   Too late to fix now

[INTMD8]

My vote is just pull it and build it

Yeah, Just rebuild & Hi Performance build the entire Motor. Then you'll have to build trans (stall converter) & rear. (3.91 sure grip)

Don't have to do that any more than he had to put EFI on it.

Just saying what I would do, and that wouldn't be putting aluminum heads on a no compression engine.

Could be wrong but I don't have high hopes for it at this point if it feels slower than an 84 yugo

[RallyeMike]

You have no idea of the cam, compression, or any other part of this engine, you have already bought efi, and now looking at aluminum heads and roller rockers? Put the credit card away. The parts will still be available after you figure out what your starting point is. Then you can put together a comprehensive plan to achieve your goals on a budget. For example, you may have some real nice iron heads on the car right now and your power problems are compression and cam.

[b5blue]

So your afraid to pull the heads to see what the pistons are? (They are key to knowing how to be building power.) 

[hemi-hampton]

It's probably all stock with stock cam & stock Pistons. Also could be worn out with over 200,000 miles on it for all you know. all that together would account for your low performance.

[John_Kunkel]

Took it out yesterday and i was so disappointed in this thing, It has had it nuts clipped off.

Have you checked the axle ratio? If the ratio is in the 2's the performance will suffer.

[XH29N0G]

I have been reading this and apologize if it has already been posted. 

Several times I have read you talking about a KIT.  I assume this is the Edelbrock top end kit.  There are several things, to pipe in because you seem ready to spend and get this settled.

First, a number of times I have seen it written here and elsewhere that the cam on that kit is not the best choice.  The heads and manifold are fine.  But other cams are worth considering.
Second, with a 440 and assuming you have the bottom end and gears that work, you might be better served looking at heads other than the edelbrock.  I have seen the TF 240s mentioned and also some of the other heads, like the sidewinder heads.  But it also probably depends a lot on what the pistons are an how far down they are (and how they seal) as to whether these will work or are even the best option.
  It could be that the 75 cc heads will be a better option for you, but you will need to know what you have. 

The rockers on the stock set up are supposed to be very stable up to a point.  After that, my thinking is something like the bushed comp rockers or ductile steel before going fancy.

There are people who build engines here, who can advise on heads and do some of the best porting I am aware of, and who know much more than I do.  The stuff I just wrote is from my reading of their posts.  Not from my own experience.  I would wait a little, post more information, make more determinations of what you have and what you want, and then see what they say and decide. 

[Challenger340]

Full disclosure....
1.) I did NOT read through all posts here before replying
and
2.) I'm old enough that I was able to drive and compare the 1974 440 HP engines to their earlier 68/69 hp Brethren back when new.

The 1974 440 'HP' engines had/have/has NO POWER whatsoever anyways, even back when new.
Cam changes can help somewhat ?
but in stock form by 1972 a complete lack of pressure, quench and turbulence had all relegated the 440's into nuetered wannabe's of their forerunner torque monster predecessors.

[Kern Dog]

I tend to listen and read things in literal terms. Having stated that......

The 1974 440 'HP' engines had/have/has NO POWER whatsoever anyways, even back when new.
Cam changes can help somewhat ?
but in stock form by 1972 a complete lack of pressure, quench and turbulence had all relegated the 440's into nuetered wannabe's of their forerunner torque monster predecessors.

NO power whatsoever? Really? If placed in a car, the car could not move?
Be serious, man. Road tests of the day probably showed a mid to high 16 second quarter mile from a 74 440 powered vehicle. Not nearly as powerful as a 67-72 model but not exactly a slant six either.
Quench? Aside from the closed chambered 516 and 915 heads, what engines back then actually had any quench anyway?
Pistons .150 in the hole, weaker cam timing, single exhaust through log manifolds and retarded ignition timing were as much to blame as anything.
I suggest a compression test, maybe even degree the cam to get an idea of the specs. Some power can be found through tuning without a rebuild.

[INTMD8]

Be serious, man. Road tests of the day probably showed a mid to high 16 second quarter mile 

Have to agree with Challenger340 on this one.  ^Sounds like the definition of no power.