Deciding on the power plant for a restomod

[bri]

Hey everyone, it's my first post despite being in here for many years, I'm just getting back to my car after life derailed my efforts.  I had started a restomod about 20 years ago, and got a good portion of the electrical and interior sorted, but now that I'm older and have more means at my disposal, I'm going to outsource the whole job.  The options available to us are staggering now!  It's originally a 318/727 car which was swapped to a 440/833 at some point before I got it.  It's a '70 500, so there's not a lot of inherent value in the original car, especially now.  It had been painted, poorly, and has some rust, so I'm getting it soda blasted at the moment, followed by the body work. But in the meantime, I'm trying to decide on an engine/trans/rear.  I don't want to race it, I have cars now that far outperform anything this would be capable of doing short of building a rod for one purpose, and I'm not looking for 1/4 mile times.  I want to drive it, as much as I can, and have a lot of fun in it, but I also want it to be special and interesting and obnoxious when I need it to be.  So my mind has been going more and more to the Hellcrate - I know it's a looooot of engine, and requires a number of fab considerations, including the firewall if I don't go for the aftermarket water manifold, and the tunnel will have to be opened up to fit the Tremec, and there's the cooling problem.  I guess my question is what other engines would someone consider who wanted a bit more bark and bite and also something a bit more modern than a 440? 

In the meantime, enjoy a picture I took of it about 22 years ago back when I lived in Boston:

[Lennard]

Welcome to the forum. Firewall clearance is no issue with a Hellcat in a second generation Charger.

[Rolling_Thunder]

I've seen your car before...    maybe on an older geocities webpage     

Everything I am going to say is my personal opinion:

For a restomod / performance car I think it is really hard to beat a Gen III Hemi swap. Cost / performance is similar to an old school big block but you get way more reliability and potential - I did a 6.1L swap in my 68 about 10 years ago and I have loved it. Do I want more power? sure. If I did it again I would spend a few dollars on drop in forced rods and pistons and put about 10psi into it - future plans.

Since the time I did my swap - tons of more aftermarket support is available. You can buy everything you need to bolt in a Gen III and wire it in a day. The 6.1L Hellcat engine will fit the engine bay without modification - the cooling system just needs a good radiator - and yes youll need to open the tunnel for a Tremec - or go with a 727 with a Gear Vendors. There is no reason NOT to have an OD trans - manual or auto. 

Brake packages are out there - I am running 14.4"/13" rotors with 6/4 piston calipers. (currently re-designing my system to include an internal parking brake)

Suspension - same deal - plenty out there from upgraded torsion bar designs to complete new coil=overs

[Mike DC]

              
Just a little thought about the Hellcat motors - they aren't gonna have the same WOW-factor a decade from now.


Chrysler has sold over 50,000 Hellcat vehicles in the last several years.  A lot of those motors will outlive the bodies they came in.  They will never be at the local Pick-N-Pull for $200 but you see what I'm getting at.  


Look at Dodge Viper motors.  Total Viper production since 1992 is about 30,000.  Those motors are still unusual but they aren't "OMFG!" rare.  Total Hellcat production is gonna double that.  And Vipers are tiny little impractical cars that never get a lot of street miles.  

[Lennard]

             
Just a little thought about the Hellcat motors - they aren't gonna have the same WOW-factor a decade from now.


Chrysler has sold over 50,000 Hellcat vehicles in the last several years.  A lot of those motors will outlive the bodies they came in.  They will never be at the local Pick-N-Pull for $200 but you see what I'm getting at.  


Look at Dodge Viper motors.  Total Viper production since 1992 is about 30,000.  Those motors are still unusual but they aren't "OMFG!" rare.  Total Hellcat production is gonna double that.  And Vipers are tiny little impractical cars that never get a lot of street miles.  

Yeah, great idea. A V10 with 500 hp that takes a huge amount of fabrication to get it to fit, or a V8 with over 700 hp that is basically a drop in. (Not to mention that the V10 sounds like a wet fart)

[bri]

I've seen your car before...    maybe on an older geocities webpage     

Definitely a possibility - the last time I did work on this thing was in the earlier days of the internet, so you might be pulling up some 20 year old memories of it. 

For a restomod / performance car I think it is really hard to beat a Gen III Hemi swap. Cost / performance is similar to an old school big block but you get way more reliability and potential

Good, that's what I was thinking as well.  I'm concerned it's not going to have the same slow loping feel of an old school big block and that I'll miss that, but so much of the rest makes up for it - reliability and support and modernity.

Thanks for the tips, what I had in my mind was pretty much the same things you list - Tremec 6 speed, coil overs with a tubular front end, big brakes, something to keep the rear planted. A Be Cool with a couple of fans should do it, my only concern is that I don't want to have to modify the hood or valance at all, and it's sounding like that may be all do-able. 

[Mike DC]

  

Yeah, great idea. A V10 with 500 hp that takes a huge amount of fabrication to get it to fit, or a V8 with over 700 hp that is basically a drop in. scratchchin (Not to mention that the V10 sounds like a wet fart)

I wasn't encouraging a V10 swap.  I was pointing out the example.  Today those V10s don't seem as rare as they once did.      

[bri]

             
Just a little thought about the Hellcat motors - they aren't gonna have the same WOW-factor a decade from now.

I am only slightly concerned with Hellcats being the engine du jour - will this car look really 2018 in a decade?  But then, that's not why I'm doing this, and certainly not to sell it, so having parts available is going to be a definite selling point.  The fact that it's supported by the factory for a few years and they seem to be putting a lot behind it make me feel confident it'll have available parts for years to come, it may be an iconic engine in time.

Look at Dodge Viper motors.  Total Viper production since 1992 is about 30,000.  Those motors are still unusual but they aren't "OMFG!" rare.  Total Hellcat production is gonna double that.  And Vipers are tiny little impractical cars that never get a lot of street miles.  

Interestingly what made me inspired to go the restomod route was a viper swap on a (i think it was) silver and red '68 about a decade ago - it was just such a beautiful job I knew I wanted to rebuild this with a modern engine, but nothing was simple enough for my basic skills until this new crate option.  

[bri]

Whoa I was a bit off on that 'decade', looks like it was 2001:

https://www.barrett-jackson.com/Events/Event/Details/1968-DODGE-CHARGER-CUSTOM-2-DOOR-HARDTOP-116009

wait, 2001 was really only a decade ago, right? 

[Mike DC]

Good, that's what I was thinking as well.  I'm concerned it's not going to have the same slow loping feel of an old school big block and that I'll miss that, but so much of the rest makes up for it - reliability and support and modernity.

Thanks for the tips, what I had in my mind was pretty much the same things you list - Tremec 6 speed, coil overs with a tubular front end, big brakes, something to keep the rear planted. A Be Cool with a couple of fans should do it, my only concern is that I don't want to have to modify the hood or valance at all, and it's sounding like that may be all do-able.

My first thought would be take a 6.1 Hemi's upper half and put more cubic inches under it.  IIRC the stock G3 blocks can be stroked up a little over 400 inches.  The $4500 aftermarket aluminum 6.1 blocks can go up around 430 inches.  (Yeah, I know people have gone bigger than these figures.  But not with decent rod ratios and cylinder wall thickness.)  

[Lennard]

 

Yeah, great idea. A V10 with 500 hp that takes a huge amount of fabrication to get it to fit, or a V8 with over 700 hp that is basically a drop in. scratchchin (Not to mention that the V10 sounds like a wet fart)

I wasn't encouraging a V10 swap.  

Oh, then you fooled me.

[Rolling_Thunder]

my only concern is that I don't want to have to modify the hood or valance at all, and it's sounding like that may be all do-able. 

The front valance will not need to be modified and I know for a fact the 6.1L hemi intake fits under a stock Charger hood - Considering that the 6.1 and the Hellcat engines fit in the same LX platform and looking at several comparison photos the hellcat supercharger looks about the same height as the 6.1L intake. There have also been several hellcat swaps into classic mopars with factory hoods still present -  so I think you're good.


As for the other discussion - the Viper engine was great for what it was...    a V-10 designed off the 360 small block. It was different and exotic for the Viper - but they simply are not swappable into classics - they are not exceedingly rare - I saw a 505 with a T56 on Gumtree in London when I was visiting there for like $3700 - in hindsight I should have snagged it - but then put it in what?

If you're looking to be different - I would go with a forged 392 or 426 short block (Gen III), put on some good heads, then hang two turbos on it. All the power (if not more) than a hellcat with with "wow" factor of being different. 

[303 Mopar]

Has anyone installed a hellcrate without modifying the hood or adding a spacer to the k-member? The supercharger does not look like it will fit as the hood slopes down as it goes forward.

I swapped in a 392 Hemi in my '70 Cuda and love it. Very quick off the line with a Passon 4 spd OD and 3.55 gears.  Does not have the pull of a stroked big block but drive it anytime anywhere.

[Lennard]

Has anyone installed a hellcrate without modifying the hood or adding a spacer to the k-member? The supercharger does not look like it will fit as the hood slopes down as it goes forward.

I haven't actually tried it because I have a sixpack hood/scoop, but I'm 99% sure that without cutting the hood or spacing the k-frame it won't fit.

[Brass]

I swapped in a 392 Hemi in my '70 Cuda and love it. Very quick off the line with a Passon 4 spd OD and 3.55 gears.  Does not have the pull of a stroked big block but drive it anytime anywhere.

You couldn't drive your stroked big block anytime anywhere?  What in your opinion are the best advantages to a gen3?  Weight savings, gas mileage?  It doesn't seem to be the cost.  Also, how effectively do you think things like aluminum heads/accessories, EFI, and overdrive help the legacy stuff mollify the difference?  

[Lennard]

I swapped in a 392 Hemi in my '70 Cuda and love it. Very quick off the line with a Passon 4 spd OD and 3.55 gears.  Does not have the pull of a stroked big block but drive it anytime anywhere.

You couldn't drive your stroked big block anytime anywhere?  What in your opinion are the best advantages to a gen3?  Weight savings, gas mileage?  It doesn't seem to be the cost.  Also, how effectively do you think things like aluminum heads/accessories, EFI, and overdrive help the legacy stuff mollify the difference?  

The advantages that you mentioned and driving coast to coast without any tools and spare parts in the trunk.

[Mike DC]

        
People used to drive 1960s cars coast-to-coast without any tools in their trunk.  That used to be normal.  


Q.  Did we all get worse at working on 1960s cars?  

A.  No.  We started building less practical setups.  We started accepting repro parts that don't work.  And we stopped driving the cars enough to de-bug them.  These are voluntary choices.

[Rolling_Thunder]

       
People used to drive 1960s cars coast-to-coast without any tools in their trunk.  That used to be normal.  


Q.  Did we all get worse at working on 1960s cars?  

A.  No.  We started building less practical setups.  We started accepting repro parts that don't work.  And we stopped driving the cars enough to de-bug them.  These are voluntary choices.

I pretty much agree - also people are used to a trouble free drive - newer cars have spoiled people to expect no problems.

[BSB67]

Q.  Did we all get worse at working on 1960s cars?  

Personally, as a group, I think the resounding answer is:  Yes.

[Nacho-RT74]

This is just about taste, but I don't like Modern engines on classic cars. Althought I'm a big fan of stockish look engine bay and even more on a stockish look car I rather preffer a classic engine down a classic hood, no matter if with "iron toys" ( aluminium heads, the best headers, chromed all around what I don't REALLY like ) but according to the engine and car than a modern engine.

Now, talking about a full customization about interior, suspension, brakes and chassis, could be a diff story and a modern engine could match better and won't scream on my face so hard.

now after say this, keeping the stockish look and being not an R/T, my votes are for a stroked 400 to the max capacity available... ( I think is 512 ? ).

would be maybe nice with the Passon performance A855 5 speed version... if they get them stocked again someday.

https://www.passonperformance.com/categories/complete-transmissions/product/502-passon-performance-a-855-five-speed-transmission

[JR]

Oh man that photo takes me back to the old internet.

I remember seeing that pic on a "Charger Web-Ring" site.

[69Chrgr]

What about modernizing a 440 with a really good set of aluminum cylinder heads and fuel injection? The new offerings from Holley, FiTech and Edelbrock really bring these engines up to speed. I just installed a Holley Sniper with the Holley Dual sync timing control and my 512 starts right up in 30 degree weather, runs stronger that it ever did before. Just a thought. I've installed 3 Snipers, 2 Fitechs and an Edelbrock EFI system and everyone of them was nothing short of awesome on each of my customers cars.

[tmaleck]

I opted for a modernized 440 for my 68 Charger.  Edelbrock SEFI and all modern internals.  Should make 450 hp on pump gas.  I have a build thread on FBBO.
Tim

[BSB67]

That's very cool!

[Kern Dog]

       
People used to drive 1960s cars coast-to-coast without any tools in their trunk.  That used to be normal.  


Q.  Did we all get worse at working on 1960s cars?  

A.  No.  We started building less practical setups.  We started accepting repro parts that don't work.  And we stopped driving the cars enough to de-bug them.  These are voluntary choices.

Holy shit...actual truth posted right here for all to see.
The V10 sucks. Power to size ratio is not great and the engine sounds terrible no matter what mufflers you have on it.