Single stage versus base/clear coat

[hemi68charger]

Hey gang..
Looking for feedback on a situation. Just found out it will probably cost about $3500 for 3 gals of base color and clear for my 69 Charger in R4. That is a lot towards the paint. Single stage is less.. I am not looking for a mirror finish like a Foose machine. What about a good single stage for the whole car, with the exception of the undercarriage which will be Dip Primer Gray from Performance Car Graphics.

[hemi-hampton]

Red is always more expensive due to the red pigments being hard to obtain. Nothing wrong with doing a solid color in single stage. I recently did Dave Dudeks 69 Hemi Roadrunner in single stage Black & it had a high gloss when lightly rubbed. I purposely left some orange peel in it to look more Factory but you can heavy duty wet sand & rub a single stage to a high gloss. LEON.

[hemi68charger]

Red is always more expensive due to the red pigments being hard to obtain. Nothing wrong with doing a solid color in single stage. I recently did Dave Dudeks 69 Hemi Roadrunner in single stage Black & it had a high gloss when lightly rubbed. I purposely left some orange peel in it to look more Factory but you can heavy duty wet sand & rub a single stage to a high gloss. LEON.

Thanks !!!  That is exactly what I had in mind on doing....

[1970Moparmann]

Troy, a friend paints all his cars in single stage and they look awesome.  He did black and sublime.   Clear is more important for the weather and sun and such.   

[b5blue]

Troy, a friend paints all his cars in single stage and they look awesome.  He did black and sublime.   Clear is more important for the weather and sun and such.   

I'm not a painter but in Florida the clear coat failure rate is very high even in factory paint jobs. 

[hemi68charger]

All,
Well, the issue is a mute point now.. The shop stated they will only do base coat / clear coat..... Freakin' red is an expensive color....

[hemi-hampton]

I wonder why only base coat clear coat I can tell you in my opinion base coat clear coat is much easier to spray & easier to get away with any mistakes or mishaps. you need more paint experience & a nice booth & clean booth to really do a nice single stage job. once again just my opinion. I'm sure others will vary. What sucks for me is when somebody say's they just want a simple repaint & only want to pay $3,000 or $4,000 or $5,000 & then they say they want it bright red & all the Paint & all materials like sandpaper, sealer ect, ect all included in that price. LEON.

[hemi68charger]

I wonder why only base coat clear coat I can tell you in my opinion base coat clear coat is much easier to spray & easier to get away with any mistakes or mishaps. you need more paint experience & a nice booth & clean booth to really do a nice single stage job. once again just my opinion. I'm sure others will vary. What sucks for me is when somebody say's they just want a simple repaint & only want to pay $3,000 or $4,000 or $5,000 & then they say they want it bright red & all the Paint & all materials like sandpaper, sealer ect, ect all included in that price. LEON.

I hear ya.. The fact that it was known it was going to be red, R4 red from the get-go, there should have been a little head's up about the cost... I'm sure it wasn't the first red paint job they've done.. I went from a 28,000 estimate for paint and body, then 5K more for the body work that needed to be done, which I understand, to another potential $3,500 more for just paint... Whew.... That was an ouch for me.. that's almost a 30% increase in price... Ouch.. But, the show must go on...

[hemi-hampton]

SO, Your up to $36,500.00 for paint & body work. And you brought them a totally stripped down car to bare metal to start with. To refresh my memory I went back over your other post & noticed the car was extremely solid compared to the rust buckets I'm used to Restoring here in Detroit, Rust City. When I Restore a car I always tell the Customer materials not included & extra. Mainly because when you tell a Customer just the cost of paint is going to be $2,000 or $3,500 in your case they say no way, your Crazy. And assume your really paying half that & pocketing the other half. SO, I take them to the paint store & let them buy the paint for themselves. That eliminates all problems & complications. Considering the Body Work they had to do on your car the $36,500 sounds about right to me & about what I probably would of Charged. I'm sure a lot of people in here would say I'm Crazy but anybody that does Quality work knows the time & work & money involved on these. Sure, I or anybody could do it for half that price but it wouldn't be the same quality. One thing people don't know is quality is not always how good it looks but how long it will last. Anyways, Good luck, I'm sure it will look great when done. LEON.

[J.Bond]

Run Forest Run

Base/clear in my opinion, allows sub standard shops the ability to clean up, dress up a crappy paint job. Most tv restoration shows, constantly say the same phrase, we will base/ clear it , sand it and polish it, Huh!!!!!!, how about, hiring, a good painter!!!!!

My 67 in the avatar, was originally going to be painted in base /clear, by the previous owner. The car was sent to a friend of mine's shop, so I could oversee the job. Base/ clear was new at the time, 1986, and I had already seen a few problems. Another friend was base/clearing a Porche in an Alpine white. I questioned his logic on the third round of painting, as the clear was yellowing out, after a week out of the booth(Sikken's). He redid the fourth paint job, in acrylic urethane. I did the same with the 67, urethane over b/c. Caught flack from the previous owner, as he wanted base/clear, and ended up buying the car off him, many years later.

However, this is the deal, the paint on the 67, is now 33 years old and 40,000 miles older, and the paint still looks fresh, had it been done in base clear. It probably, in fact, would not, have lasted (clear would peel)

Base/Clear is Ok for the new stuff, keep in mind how these cars left the factory in the 60's, orange peel, overspray and runs.

[hemi68charger]

... LEON.

Yeap, I paid for all the sheetmetal and when something was discovered that wasn't seen in the initial estimate, I gladly purchased what they needed, even if there was only a small portion of the part being transplanted, i.e inner wheel well.. Compared to a lot, it is a pretty solid car. My only big shock and unexpected gasp is with the additional 2.5K I'm having to pay up to get paint. My budget for the project was at the limit where I saved up to begin with, then added another 5.5k in body work, that's 8k in money I need to come up with. Luckily I had a small padded "what if" fund which was going to go to interior costs, not now... The R4 red color was known up front and that expensive color, I wish, would have been translated into the original estimate so I knew were I stood. That would have maybe caused me to either hold off on the operation or check out another shop that would do single-stage ( if in fact that's a cheaper route ). I know in the scheme of things, it'll all wash out, but it will financially hurt for a while... But, the car's worth it and it will be very nice painted body..> Then my manual work begins...

Also Leon, how many gallons do you use on a typical B-body? and, does that include the complete interior area and undercarriage? I'm thinking my situation will be less since I'm not painting the undercarriage body color.. I believe they are going with a red-like primer so the color coverage doesn't have to be so thick to cover the primer (if it was white or a lighter color).

[hemi-hampton]

Typically I figure if just doing the outside of car 1 gallon of paint roughly & if doing Trunk, Engine Comp, under hood, under trunk, all jambs easily another gallon. if you wanta get crazy & do undercarriage, interior floor, under side of roof which I think is crazy but nowadays some people want that & Sometimes, many times I'll paint hidden parts that nobody will ever see when 1/4 put back on like outside trunk extension, outside rear wheel wells & rear glass regulator area, ect, ect, I do this mostly for longivity & protection. So, could be as much as 3 gallons. I'm sure others opinions will vary. LEON.

[hemi68charger]

... LEON.

I appreciate your input Leon... Just wanna make sure since we're doing it, might do it OEM-correct. I make sure I let them know when they shot the trunk that is basically coverage from what you can see when looking into the trunk.. There are many places that get no color on the 'backside' of a part, i.e the trunk hinges, the dutchman panel, their supports to the wheel wells, etc....

[hemi-hampton]

If you look at my Trunk pics in other post you'll see how mine was painted. LEON.

[DAY CLONA]

Troy, personally I'd go single stage in order to maintain the OEM look/finish on this vehicle, while BC/CC looks beautiful when color sanded and buffed to a mirror finish...  IMHO it's not correct for this restoration


Mike

[hemi68charger]

Troy, personally I'd go single stage in order to maintain the OEM look/finish on this vehicle, while BC/CC looks beautiful when color sanded and buffed to a mirror finish...  IMHO it's not correct for this restoration


Mike

I agree... awkward situation I am in now.... not so easy to just walk away and start fresh with another shop... The proverbial situation of the next shop not liking that the past shop did..  At this time, I have chosen to press forward... Thanks for the advise... As always Mike, your words are wise...

[hemi-hampton]

They already agreed to do some parts of it in single stage didn't they? did they give a reason why they refuse to do the exterior in single stage? seems kinda odd LEON.

[INTMD8]

To me, single stage looks better/deeper than base/clear but I also would say it doesn't look like original lacquer. 

I suppose it may have 50 years ago but I wasn't alive to see the cars when new.

I believe only possible with solid colors, metallics are always clear coated?

I think for most shops base/clear is easier because they can load on the clear to have a ton of material to cut/buff.

If you cut through the last coat of single stage to the coat underneath it I think you could see that.

Only other downside to single stage is future repairs.  Has to be panel painted. Not so much a problem if you have leftover paint but there is no spot repair/blend and clear the panel with single stage.

The above is what I remember over the years but I'm no paint specialist so don't hold me to it.

[hemi-hampton]

To me, single stage looks better/deeper than base/clear but I also would say it doesn't look like original lacquer. 

I suppose it may have 50 years ago but I wasn't alive to see the cars when new.

I believe only possible with solid colors, metallics are always clear coated?

I think for most shops base/clear is easier because they can load on the clear to have a ton of material to cut/buff.

If you cut through the last coat of single stage to the coat underneath it I think you could see that.

Only other downside to single stage is future repairs.  Has to be panel painted. Not so much a problem if you have leftover paint but there is no spot repair/blend and clear the panel with single stage.

The above is what I remember over the years but I'm no paint specialist so don't hold me to it.

Metallics are not always clear coated.
you can load on the single stage & have a ton of material to cut & buff.
you can go through a layer & not see it.
with single stage you do not have to panel paint it or clear entire panel to blend it. LEON.

[Canadian1968]

If you want to try and stay more to OEM standards then use the single stage. With a solid color it should be pretty hard to tell the difference between a SS or BC job.  Metallic are different , much harder to spray a nice even SS metallic vs a BC . As long as the material is there you can cut and buff SS till your arms fall off, same with BC.  Both can be spotted in for repairs if needed.
Single stage has come a long way,  the UV protection has improved from older versions .

Spraying and polishing SS is a mess LOL. Whatever color you painted ,your spray booth is now that color !!! , and if you have to buff , all your polishing pads are now that color !! 

Im not really telling you anything that Leon hasn't already said.

[DanielRobert]

On any solid color, I'd stick to single stage....metallics would be bc/cc because I wouldn't trust anyone to correctly wet sand a single stage metallic.

[hemi-hampton]

On any solid color, I'd stick to single stage....metallics would be bc/cc because I wouldn't trust anyone to correctly wet sand a single stage metallic.

What is the correct way to wet sand a single stage metallic? I'd like to hear it   LEON.

[DanielRobert]

Leon, maybe I should have said 'do a good job of wet sanding a metallic paint job'     I guess, if you're not consistent with wet sanding, you could butcher a metallic paint job . But you already know that

[hemi-hampton]

Your not suppose to sand (wet sand & rub) a metallic single stage with no clear on it at all, That is if your wanting to rub it with a rubbing wheel afterwards. What I'd be more worried about is some one spraying a single stage metallic & have it come out all blotchy &/or Mottling & zebra striped. which is very common with a single stage metallic if your not experienced spraying it. LEON.

[DanielRobert]

yes, thats what I mean....dont try to wet sand a single stage metallic...thats what clear is for

[69HemiBee]

36,500 and you brought them a relatively decent  stripped shell? Just curious as I live and work in economically deprived New York and would have zero business at that price.  Better move my shop I suppose!