What GM transmissions clear the trans tunnel without cutting?

[JR]

Ok, so I expect to catch some flak for this, but I've decided to go with an LS engine for a while. But rather than get off topic with a debate of 440 vs RB, I'd rather just ask anyone who's been down the road for some advice here.

I'm doing the swap with as little cutting or modifying the body as possible, (so it's reversible) so I don't want to cut out the entire trans hump for a 4L80.

When it comes to overdrive automatics, are my choices 700R4 or a 4l60? I know the Silver Sport kit is a beefed up 4L60 with an RB adapted bellhousing, so I assume that one clears ok? I'm likely going to use an LQ9 for a base, and I want to end up with an install as clean as this one.

http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,117320.0.html


I'd strongly prefer an overdrive trans, but I'm open to suggestions or experiences here.

[chargerbr549]

I have been interested in doing an overdrive trans in the 66-70 b body platform and from what I have read about the only one that doesn't require modifiying the brace in the trans tunnel is the 700r4/4l60e trans (some applications you still might have to do some modifications to clear everything), some people have suggested 2004r's but the pan rail is still too wide where it needs to be narrower to clear the brace in the tunnel without doing modifications. As far as the argument of strength of the 4l60e in stock form it isn't the best but the aftermarket has alot of upgrades to take care of that issue.

Just a warning your going to stir up the hornests nest with the purists! LOL

[Mike DC]

  
I haven't run one, but a (beefed up) 2004r reads like the best 4spd OD automatic choice all-around.  Mopar or GM, the gear ratios, strength, ground clearance, rotating weight, etc.     

The 700/4L60E is known to be weak (even after beefing up).  And the gear ratios aren't as well matched as the 200.  It's not terrible but it's not really ideal either. 
 

[JR]

Good info guys, I appreciate it.

I really don't care what the Purists say, im over that stuff. Their tears bring me joy at this point, lol.

The gear spacing in the 4l60 is infuriating. I have it in my pickup, and while first gear and the O/D gear are perfect, the spacing of ratios in between is annoying.

The 200 and the 700 r4 use a 727 style kickdown linkage, right?

[cdr]

Good info guys, I appreciate it.

I really don't care what the Purists say, im over that stuff. Their tears bring me joy at this point, lol.

The gear spacing in the 4l60 is infuriating. I have it in my pickup, and while first gear and the O/D gear are perfect, the spacing of ratios in between is annoying.

The 200 and the 700 r4 use a 727 style kickdown linkage, right?

They use a cable

[c00nhunterjoe]

Do not waste your money on a 60. Without splitting hairs on a mopar forum, the 60 is weak no matter what you do to it and it will break in a lighter car and less torque then you are running. The 4l80 is the only logical way to do a gm overdrive trans but it wont clear a mopar tunnel.

[Mike DC]

  

Do not waste your money on a 60. Without splitting hairs on a mopar forum, the 60 is weak no matter what you do to it and it will break in a lighter car and less torque then you are running. The 4l80 is the only logical way to do a gm overdrive trans but it wont clear a mopar tunnel.

Are we talking about a hard-launching drag car or a street cruiser?  

A fair number of 4L60E conversions have been done.  I won't say I'm a fan of it but they can work in non-abusive settings.  GM put those things in some 5000-lb trucks & vans. 

[JR]

This is a street car with 9.5 inch wide low profile summer tires that sees 90 percent street and 10 percent autocross, and an 8 3/4 rear end.

It may see a drag strip once or twice a year.

Im not interested in launching it with drag slicks anytime soon.

[flyinlow]

My son's '70 Charger has  the 4l60 with the Silver state bell housing. (behind a 440) Only body mod was rolling the tunnel seam in a couple areas for more clearance.  Not sure if the stock Chevy bell housing would require this.
I like the LS engines ,but would not open my hood at a car show if I did that.

[c00nhunterjoe]

 

Do not waste your money on a 60. Without splitting hairs on a mopar forum, the 60 is weak no matter what you do to it and it will break in a lighter car and less torque then you are running. The 4l80 is the only logical way to do a gm overdrive trans but it wont clear a mopar tunnel.

Are we talking about a hard-launching drag car or a street cruiser?  

A fair number of 4L60E conversions have been done.  I won't say I'm a fan of it but they can work in non-abusive settings.  GM put those things in some 5000-lb trucks & vans. 

They burn up very easy in the pickup trucks and suvs. Im talking about daily driver street abuse. There are several built in flaws to a 4l60. Some you can bandaid with upgraded parts, others you can not. Just trying to prevent more wasted money here.

[c00nhunterjoe]

The trucks and vans that used the 700r/4l60 initially wer 175hp smog motors. When the ls came around the 60s were failing left and right. When the stock truck ls started to crest the 280 and 300 horse mark, they got the 4l80. The 60 just cant take it. You are going to dump a ton of money into upgrades for a "temporary" transmission as the 1st post stated. If this is a long term swap, then build  4l80, cut the floor out neatly and stick it in the shed. Put a modified floor in to fit the 4l80. If you want to go back to stock, put the old floor back in. It will be cheaper short and long term.

[Mike DC]

The trucks and vans that used the 700r/4l60 initially wer 175hp smog motors. When the ls came around the 60s were failing left and right. When the stock truck ls started to crest the 280 and 300 horse mark, they got the 4l80. The 60 just cant take it. You are going to dump a ton of money into upgrades for a "temporary" transmission as the 1st post stated. If this is a long term swap, then build  4l80, cut the floor out neatly and stick it in the shed. Put a modified floor in to fit the 4l80. If you want to go back to stock, put the old floor back in. It will be cheaper short and long term.

Do you have any thoughts on the 200-4Rs?  

The Buick GN guys seem to be able to make them live (with serious aftermarket overhauls).  GNs are medium-weight cars and those turbo/6 motors are nothing to sneeze at.  

[Mike DC]

           

I like the LS engines ,but would not open my hood at a car show if I did that.

The only vehicles that people want to see LS motors in, are ones that came with those motors from the factory.  Putting one in pretty much anything else will draw groans of disappointment.  



Somebody could probably make a buck selling fake dress-up air cleaners/valvecovers/etc to disguise LS motors as something else.    

[Kern Dog]

Ok, so I expect to catch some flak for this, but I've decided to go with an LS engine for a while.  I'm open to suggestions or experiences here.

Okay...FORGET this bullshit Chevy engine idea. 

[ACUDANUT]

 A LS chevy engine in a Mopar ?

[JR]

How well do the 700r4s/2004rs hold up, durability wise?

Do they normally survive in 4000lb, 400 HP vehicles? There are thousands of GM A bodies out there with them, so they must hold up ok, right?

Joe, I like the 4l80 trans, I just don't know if I can bring myself to cut out my original floor. I'm lacking the testicular fortitude to take the jump there.

[c00nhunterjoe]

The 200 is a much physically smaller trans. It is shorter then the 700/4l60. It is also harder to find and twice as expensive to build. Most of the gn crowd have snatched the usable cores up.

[chargerbr549]

If your going 700r4 route stay away from the earlier ones which I believe they started them around 1982, look for a late 80's to early 90's ones preferably ones that were behind 350's and then update those.

As far as durability of the 4l60e's I have a 96 Silverado with a 350 engine 4x4 with trailer tow package and and around 134,000 miles on the original transmission (which I know is a rarity) I tow with it on occasion and I recently installed a 383 to replace the 350 which I know most likely shorten the life of the trans but I have a spare trans laying around when that happens. I have also had several other mid 90's Silverado's with mileages in the 120000 mile range and both of them I had to rebuild the 4l60e's which tends to be the norm on a stock trans.

I wouldn't be afraid of going the 4l60e/700r4 route thats been updated with better internals but then I don't abuse my stuff either so most of it tends to last longer than other peoples stuff.

For me if I was willing to cut the crossmember area it would be a 4l80e hands down since 4l60e doesn't even come close strength wise.

[JR]

I would absolutely love the 4l80, but I'm just not ready to cut the crossmember or floor yet.

Any experience with the 4l65 or 70 guys?

My understanding of them is they are beefed up 4l60s from gm. I imagine they'd have the same durability as any aftermarket modified 4l60, but I'm just curious.

I'm not sold on a particular trans yet, I'm still learning the details. I'm not very experienced with GM drivetrain stuff.

[c00nhunterjoe]

I have not installed a 60 in a b body but a quick search on some other mopar forums has yielded that the 4l60 does not fit without modification to the floor either. It is not as drastic as a 4l80, but if you are worried about touching your origonal floor, you are going to have to take a sledge to it for the 60 to fit, and cut it out and remake the hump for an 80. In looking at photos, the 80 floor modification is not much worse then a 4 speed hump.
  The 65 and 70 series was the bandaid from gm until the 6l series was ready for use. It still wont hold up without heavy, expensive aftermarket parts changes. Just google 4l60 and performance and start reading othe people's 1st hand accounts of failure at low hp numbers. The most fully built to the hills 4l60 will still only handle  500 hp and it will not last. The drag race ones are only good for a dozen passes before needing full overhauls.

[chargerbr549]

On the 4l60e some of the fitment issues in the tunnel and crossmember when put behind a "mopar" engine are affected by how its mounted to the engine if its mounted by an adapter plate that will obviously move the transmission back however thick the adapter is and that creates problems and some guys have actually moved the engine forward to compensate for that which I don't think moving the engine forward is very desirable at all but for some people thats the only option.

If your using the 4l60e transmission with the removable bellhousing there are two different ones, the only one that you can use with the Quicktime bellhousing is the LS based transmission but the problem with that one is the bellhousing is about .750 deeper than the 350 Vortec style transmission because of the bigger torque converter and longer input shaft and once again it moves the transmission back into the tunnel and or cross member, not good.

The preferable one to use is the Vortec 350 based trans which I believe was used from 1997-2002 but nobody builds a bellhousing except for Silver Sport transmissions and they won't sell it by itself you have to buy the whole transmission setup which is big dollars.

So its no easy solution for mopar engine and gm transmission however using the LS engine and 4l60e trans together probably isn't as big as an issue since the LS engine is shorter overall than the mopar engine so moving it forward wouldn't be as big of an issue, plus the alot of the LS motors have aluminum blocks and heads so moving it forward won't be as detrimental for weight balance.

[flyinlow]

Silver State sells the 4l60 kit with three torque ratings. 450/550/650 ft.lbs. Do you need more than that? The body mod with a 440 engine is to peen the tunnel seam over at two and ten o'clock  .  Medium size hammer and touch up the paint. A LS engine might be able to move the trans forward and not have to do this.

JR ; do you have EFI?   If so instructions in the SS kit said you can use the EFI throttle position sensor to send a signal to the transmission controller instead of the hokey position sensor the kit comes with that we used with a carb.

[Mike DC]

                

Silver State sells the 4l60 kit with three torque ratings. 450/550/650 ft.lbs. Do you need more than that?

650 lb/ft?  That's pretty optimistic.  

Not all cases are equal.  A small block that winds up to that much torque at 4500 RPM once in a while?  In a 2500-lb car?  With little tires?  Yeah, that might work.  But probably not in a 440 Charger that weighs 3800 pounds and has decent tires.  

[Kern Dog]

My car is 3940 lbs and I run a 295 mm rear tire. I doubt the trans in my car ever sees all of the torque my engine makes because I peel out easily. If the tires spin, the trans never gets fully stressed.

[JR]

Flyinlow,:

Yes, I have efi currently. A Fitech TBI. Although I'll most likely use the stock LS stuff once swapped.

[JR]

Well, after a ton of research, it appears my options are

Turbo 350= no tunnel mods at all, but no overdrive. I suppose I could fit a gear vendors to it, but that seems convoluted to go through all the trouble of a full drivetrain swap and stick that band-aid on the trans after.

2004r/700r4/4l60,65,70 = light hammering on the tunnel, but no cutting floor, but potentially a weak point in the drivetrain that will fail at some point.

4l80= absolutely Rock solid trans that won't fail, but requires a big hole in the floor and cutting and boxing of the center support.

I'm likely going to use the 4l65/70, and avoid any launches with slicks for the immediate build. I see the failure rate in them, but I can't bring myself to cut out my clean floor just yet.
  I can probably find a 5.3 or 6.0/4l65 pullout from the same vehicle to simplify things.

If (when)  the 65 starts to let go, I'll reconsider cutting the floor out then.

[c00nhunterjoe]

Just bear in mind, slicks are not the determining factor for burning up the 60. Its simple physics. The 60 is the same dimension as a 350, yet it now holds 4 gears vs 3. To do this, they shrink the inner parts to get it into the same package. No matter what upgrades you do, the clutch packs and servos are still the same small size, less then that of a mopar 904. Bfg radial ta tires will burn it up. My money is an overdrive failure or a 1-2 shift flare as the 1st issue down the road with it. Good luck in your endeavor.

[JR]

I gotcha Joe. I'm probably going to use a low buck salvage yard pullout engine/trans combo, so I'm not going to have a bunch invested in the trans itself.

If (when)  it lets go I won't be heartbroken. I can switch to a turbo 350 or 4l80 then.

I appreciate the help guys.

[c00nhunterjoe]

A 5.3 will probably be the easiest to get a complete and bolted together 2wd unit from a pickup. A 6.0 would be ideal but to find a package with a 4l60 will be near impossible. 99-06 being ideal as they are pre mds.

[Kern Dog]

Why even do this with a Chevy engine?
A 5.7 Hemi and a 518 would keep the car ALL MOPAR.  The 518 is stronger than the GM transmission as well.

[JR]

I suspect this is going to open the floor gates from loyalist, but anyway.

Kern Dog, the simple answer is Im way past the point of caring about keeping it all Mopar. That doesn't mean much to me anymore. And I want a modern engine and modern drivability now. I'm tired of the numerous quirks of a 50 year old big block.

And I don't believe the Hemi is engineered well enough to justify the outrageous costs of swapping one in. After witnessing a handful of my friend's LX platform cars scatter their engines on completely stock tunes with under 100k miles, I don't trust them enough to go through the trouble and cost of using it. The newest episode of Hot Rod Garage was a good example. They set out to build the cheapest new hemi powered classic Mopar possible and still went over 9 grand (after subtracting the $2500 cost of the Duster.)
That's almost 10k for a 345 horse, stock hemi before any power mods. That same money in any LS swap will go WAY farther. It's not even a comparison.

It's simply not worth it to me to spend two to three times the money, still end up with less HP, a less reliable engine with less aftermarket support and not have any real advantages aside from the fact I "kept it Mopar."

I'm doing the swap to be reversible, so I can always put the 440 back in if I want.

[Mike DC]

              
I'm not gonna hate on you for the brand issue.  But I will point out a couple things:


- One minute you are talking about running a junkyard 4L60E behind a modern ponycar V8.  The next minute you are saying a modern Hemi isn't durable enough.  

- An LS into a Mopar probably won't be like putting an LS into an old Camaro.   Motor mounts?  Oil pan?  Headers?  You may be hand-fabbing some (or all) of this stuff.  Just something to consider.  Whereas there are people & businesses to help with the G3 Hemi swap.


As for the modern Hemi - it seems like the blocks/heads are good strong stuff from the factory.  But the rotating assy & valvetrain parts aren't as solid.  The factory cut all those moving parts pretty close to the edge.  Saving a buck, helping it rev fast, and passing emissions.  

[JR]

Yes, Mike. The 4l65 is the weakest point of the swap, but I can change to a different trans later if need be and eliminate this issue. I'm deliberately taking the harder way out here to avoid cutting the car, this wouldn't be an issue otherwise.

 I prefer the headache of sorting the trans out over the headache of a 10 thousand plus dollar hemi swap that randomly eats it's bottom end, drops a valve, or any other stupid failure I've witnessed firsthand with the new Hemi.

And true, there isn't a drop in kit to put an LS in a b body. BUT, there is a huge list of LS powered vehicles to pick and choose parts from. And the costs of their parts vs hemi stuff is no comparison. TTi headers for a 5.7 hemi B body are 800 bucks. Factory Trailblazer SS exhaust manifolds are 80 bucks or so used. The newer GTOs used a rear sump oil pan, and if that one doesn't clear, there are countless aftermarket ones available.

[Mike DC]

  
Well, best of luck with it.


FWIW, I think you might be able to get a GM 700/4L60 series (or maybe 200-4R) trans that holds up if you throw enough money at it.  A production LS motor on regular street tires is not THAT much stress.  

Guys usually quit trying to make a smaller tranny work once it the cost climbs up way past the price of a bigger tranny.  But that's not an engineering limit. 

There's a bazillion GM cars out there and lots of them came with the light-duty trannys.  I imagine somebody out there has made the smaller trannys hold up by replacing half the internal guts with custom CNC'd stuff.  With GM parts, you name it and somebody has done it.

[c00nhunterjoe]

Or you could drop the k frame down and trans cross member down like the old drag race tricks. That would probably give you the clearance to run the larger trans and not cut or hammer the floor. The trans crossmember will have to be modified for any gm trans anyway.

[Kern Dog]

TTi headers for a 5.7 hemi B body are 800 bucks. Factory Trailblazer SS exhaust manifolds are 80 bucks or so used.

Now you are comparing headers to stock manifolds? Yeah...FAIR comparison. That is like Jamaal saying his dick is bigger than all the other 6th grade kids but that is because Jamaal is 17 years old.   

You do know that the 5.7 Jeep manifolds fit, right? The SRT8 Jeep manifolds might as well.
Durability? I have 342,000 on my 2007 Ram 1500.
The only late model Hemis that I know that have had valve seat problems are the ones that have overheated.

[JR]

Rather than make a long argument that will inevitably go down a rabbit hole, I'll just say the hemi isn't worth the cost premium to me. I've seen too many fail under too many different owners to spend the money on one.

Not to mention, If I was after power alone, I could have a stupidly built LS for what a stock hemi swap costs. I mean I'm not, but the speed per dollar spent is no comparison.

If it was comparable in cost, maybe then. But I'm sure not spending 10k just for the sake of "keeping it mopar." It's just not worth it.

[c00nhunterjoe]

Not that it matters, but more ls engines come into my shop blown up then hemis. Wiped cams, blown lifters, broken valve springs and dropped valves. Most are in the 100k range, bone stock.

[Kern Dog]

Heh heh heh.... 

[Mike DC]

                      
Just curious - which aspects of the old Mopar engines are motivating this?  

I get it, nothing is gonna compete with an LS motor on HP-per-dollar.  But you aren't complaining that your Mopar big block is too slow.


Have you run a good EFI conversion on an old Mopar B/RB engine yet?  I would think that, plus an overdrive gear, would do a lot to calm the annoyances.

The gas mileage would still not be great.  But that has a lot to do with cubic inches - an LS motor wouldn't be too easy on gas either if it was 440ci.  You could swap down to a 383 B-block without incurring a lot of changeover costs.  That's a damn good engine in terms of torque per inches/MPG.    




The easiest practicality gain would be swapping in a 1990s 5.2L or 5.9L Magnum.  Most of the EFI hardware you would need is already there, as well as a roller cam.  And those motors can definitely stay together for a lot of miles.  

But the 5.2L is pretty small and the 5.9L gets pretty bad MPG for its size.  

I've often wished Mopar had done a "Magnum" update in the 1990s for the bigger engines.  Imagine if the junkyards were full of Ram trucks with 383/400/440 big-blocks that had factory EFI & roller cams & decent aluminum heads.  We would be putting those in muscle cars all the time.  The 383s would probably be getting 350-inch gas mileage but making power/torque like 400+ inches.
 

[JR]

Basically Mike, I'm tired of the 50 year old tech, the power delivery and 5500 rpm redline, the lack of overdrive, the old school flange gaskets that constantly leak somewhere, 700lbs of weight on the nose, and all the radiant heat the big blocks put out. (The coolant stays between 190-210,  but as soon as I hit stop and go traffic, every fluid starts to cook and the passenger compartment turns into an oven. I've done a TON of work to mitigate this, still chase the problem in the summer. Just the nature of big blocks I guess.) 10mpg and cruising down the interstate at 2800 rpm with 2.96 gears. And the physics of all the iron on the front of the car don't work well for handling. That much weight on the nose sucks the fun out of driving. (I can't imagine how bad a Cummins swapped anything must drive.)

My 440 has been dead reliable. I've never suffered a mechanical failure from the engine itself, but it is tired and due for a refresh, and the reasons above stop me from wanting to spend the money on it.

Basically I like pro touring and GT cars, and I've gone as far as I can with the 440. Or as far as I'm willing to go.

I'll put the 440 back in one day when I've done had all the fun with it I'm after.

[Mike DC]

                                
I totally sympathize about the weight on the nose.  

IMO the Cummins swaps are ridiculous for all-around driveability purposes.  When you bring up the weight issue you hear things like "What's the big deal?  Put stiffer front springs on it."   If you drove a stock Charger with 500 lbs of cinder blocks strapped to the hood, the same people would point and say "Jesus Christ, that dumb fuck is destroying his chassis!"  
           

Good point about the gaskets.  The old ones work but they aren't as reliable.  


Interior heat, yeah, that sucks.  Long-tube headers are really bad about causing it.  The thin walled tubing acts like a radiator for the exhaust heat.  I wouldn't bet on an LS being a lot cooler unless you kept little stock manifolds on it. 

Ceramic coatings inside the headers/manifolds do help this issue noticeably. 

[c00nhunterjoe]

Basically Mike, I'm tired of the 50 year old tech, the power delivery and 5500 rpm redline, the lack of overdrive, the old school flange gaskets that constantly leak somewhere, 700lbs of weight on the nose, and all the radiant heat the big blocks put out. (The coolant stays between 190-210,  but as soon as I hit stop and go traffic, every fluid starts to cook and the passenger compartment turns into an oven. I've done a TON of work to mitigate this, still chase the problem in the summer. Just the nature of big blocks I guess.) 10mpg and cruising down the interstate at 2800 rpm with 2.96 gears. And the physics of all the iron on the front of the car don't work well for handling. That much weight on the nose sucks the fun out of driving. (I can't imagine how bad a Cummins swapped anything must drive.)

My 440 has been dead reliable. I've never suffered a mechanical failure from the engine itself, but it is tired and due for a refresh, and the reasons above stop me from wanting to spend the money on it.

Basically I like pro touring and GT cars, and I've gone as far as I can with the 440. Or as far as I'm willing to go.

I'll put the 440 back in one day when I've done had all the fun with it I'm after.

Now im really confused. Aside from the overdrive, all of those problems will happen with no matter what "stock" engine you put in the car. Its 2 tons of steel. My 6.0 pickup gets 14 mpg empty with overdrive, runs at 215 per the factory, and puts out enormous amounts of radiant heat in the summer.

Manifold gaskets blow out- dont buy the cheap ones. I do leaky ls manifolds on a weekly basis.
Really confused on what the "redline" of the engine has to do with a decision to scrap a 440. The ls doesnt spin much higher. What is the purpose? Torque moves the car, not the max rpm capability?

Every reason you just gave to ls swap the car makes no sense. The same "problems" you have now, you will still have. It sounds like you are just making excuses to put one it. I dont get it. If you want to ls swap it. Just do it.

[c00nhunterjoe]

Furthermore- regarding weight of a 440 vs ls..
A bone stock iron everything 440 is 675ish pounds. Aluminum intake drops 30 lbs, aluminum heads drop another 50 lbs, headers drop another 10 all conservativly. An iron block lq4 6.0 ls weighs 580 lbs.... so you do the math there and tell me where the weight savings in an ls swap is? Unless you are buying an aluminum block ls, which then negates your cost savings arguement.

[Kern Dog]

Careful...You are making too much sense and the OP is not interested in any of that! 

[Mike DC]

Furthermore- regarding weight of a 440 vs ls..
A bone stock iron everything 440 is 675ish pounds. Aluminum intake drops 30 lbs, aluminum heads drop another 50 lbs, headers drop another 10 all conservativly. An iron block lq4 6.0 ls weighs 580 lbs.... so you do the math there and tell me where the weight savings in an ls swap is? Unless you are buying an aluminum block ls, which then negates your cost savings arguement.

There's no way the B/RB motor family is cost-competitive with the LS motor family on weight.

An aluminum B/RB block is like $6000.  And that only buys the block.

[c00nhunterjoe]

Furthermore- regarding weight of a 440 vs ls..
A bone stock iron everything 440 is 675ish pounds. Aluminum intake drops 30 lbs, aluminum heads drop another 50 lbs, headers drop another 10 all conservativly. An iron block lq4 6.0 ls weighs 580 lbs.... so you do the math there and tell me where the weight savings in an ls swap is? Unless you are buying an aluminum block ls, which then negates your cost savings arguement.

There's no way the B/RB motor family is cost-competitive with the LS motor family on weight.  

An aluminum B/RB block is like $6000.  And that only buys the block.  

No, i meant the op said he was buying a used ls platform over a hemi because they are so much cheaper. Thats the iron ls, the aluminum ls blocks cost alot more. It was in reference to the weight differences.

And an aluminum headed, aluminium intaked b/rb is comparable to a 6.0 ls.

[Kern Dog]

That is how I saw it.
Placing your argument FOR the Gm engine based on low cost and low weight, this means a production block and heads. If you go extreme and use an aluminum LS block, the price argument loses it's merit entirely.
LS into a small import car for drifting? Sure.
LS into a sand rail for desert racing? Sure.
LS into a classic GM car for "whatever" ? Sure.
LS into a Mopar or Ford? WTF is wrong with you? The Ford Coyote and the Mopar 3G Hemi are RIGHT THERE in front of you.

[JR]

Annnnnddd there's the Mopar loyalist argument that I knew was coming.

Im not making excuses, I was asked for my reasons for swapping, I gave them. The LS (or any modern engine really) is better suited for how I want to use the car. The LS is the best fit for cost/packaging/aftermarket support and is easy and cheap to replace if I break it having fun.

As for the max redline question, I enjoy doing autocross and related stuff, where wheel speed in a certain gear is absolutely a benefit for car control. 

At this point, I am after a fun to drive and well performing vehicle for the money spent. I could absolutely care less about car show points or if a swap is "played out."

And again, the hemi is two to three times the cost to swap in. It is in no way two to three times the engine.

[Kern Dog]

I could absolutely care less about car show points or if a swap is "played out."

If you CAN CARE LESS, that means that you care by some amount. If you COULDN'T care less, that means that you don't care even the slightest amount.
Why even post this on a Charger forum? Your car seems like a decent ride. It isn't like you dragged this out of a soggy marsh and it was a rusty mess with no value.
I can see the appeal if your car was a worthless POS but it obviously isn't. How much of this is a matter of how you can irritate the Mopar crowd?
If that isn't it....How short on cash are you that you resort to an off brand engine?
I've read your posts here before. You seem like a reasonable guy but this is waaaaay off of the reservation.

[JR]

Dude, I literally started a post asking for the least intrusive transmission I can use because I didn't want to cut up the car. I adore the car, and was asking for input from guys with more fabrication experience. This is about as non intrusive a swap as it gets. It can be removed without a trace in a weekend.

Im not out to irritate anyone. I really don't care. I'm not an idiot, I don't get my rocks off by trolling people on forums.

It has nothing to do with being hard up on cash. I'm simply bored with the 440, and hemis aren't worth the cost to me.

Bill Gates could easily afford a 100 thousand dollar Patek Phillipe watch, but he wears a 50 dollar Casio. I'm going to guess the expensive watch isn't better enough for him to justify the cost gap. I'm certainly not bill Gates, but you see my point.

[Mike DC]

        
Some guys cringe at seeing a gen3 Hemi in a classic Mopar.  It doesn't share anything with the old motors.  It's made in foreign factories.  

Some of us think it's hurting the essence of the car to swap in a Ford-based coil spring front end.  
The Borgeson steering box conversion is just a modified GM part too.  

This thread started out discussing GM auto trans conversions.  Those are somehow less blasphemous if the kit seller re-names it an "A41" instead of the "4L60E."  Or if they take what is basically a Ford 5spd and call it a "Tremec TKO".  

Engines?  It's a step farther, yeah. But it's only a matter of degree.  The car industry crosses engines from brand-to-brand sometimes.  Or even whole re-badged cars.  


Whatever.  This forum is not DodgeEngines.com.  It's DodgeCharger.com.  I fail to care about an occasional LS swap.  The other day some asshole crushed a whole rebuildable Charger just to be a troll.  

[c00nhunterjoe]

Im not a purist. Have you seen my car? Lmao. Im just trying to grasp your reasoning for the ls swap because it doesnt make sense. None of them. I dont care what engine or trans you use. But for the guy who doesnt want to alter the car, but wants to go autocross and have it handle like a modern car..... well, you are not going to do that without altering the car and a hump in the floor pan is the least of your worries.

[c00nhunterjoe]

If you are tired of your 440, then come for a ride in mine to see what they can really do, reliably.

[Kern Dog]

If cost is a factor, I have yet to see a breakdown of the expenses.
Look, you owe nothing to anyone here. It really does come down to the fact that it is your car to do with as you wish. Posting on a forum is like talking to people in a room. By airing your business, you are going to get opinions.
I hate off brand engine swaps in American cars. I've seen Jap engines put in A-Body cars, Cummins Diesels in Musclecars, Chevy 350s in Ford street rods and I have never liked it. I have a buddy that wanted to put a Toyota 22R in a '64 Valiant. I told him it was a stupid idea to make the car slower with no real gain in economy. Now he is considering an all electric motorcycle. Great guy but his head is just not screwed on right. The time and expense to build something like his will never balance out, moneywise.
I don't mind the transmission swaps, the brake swaps and even seats. When I see a swap using an off brand part that does NOT seem to be any better than something available  within the family, I get annoyed. At that point, it seems like the work is more of a matter of doing it to be different or to impress some people.
I hate the coil over front suspensions. I think that they cost too much and are a step backward in durability. I can see the appeal of a Ford 9" axle if a man wants a gear ratio that is unavailable in a Dana or an 8.75.
I understand that there are a bunch of drag racers that take a Camaro or a Malibu and swap in a 200,000 mile LS with a Chink turbo and have less than $5000 in their car. Good for them...Mash it until it blows up.
The Charger though....
I don't see the price difference that you state. Engine mount kits are available. It took awhile but the engine controllers are finally available too. The 518 is far more durable than any GM 4L60 trans.

[c00nhunterjoe]

Ive been told my head isnt screwed on tight... but then i also convinced a gm guy to put a dana 60 in his 64 olds over a 12 bolt because it was cheaper and stronger....

[Mike DC]

                
Probability of this thread getting fixated on the LS decision instead of the trans question:  100%

[garner7555]

While I have no plans to LS swap my Charger, I can understand where you're coming from.   You want a modern drivetrain swap, and the LS is the most economical way to do that.  The Ford coyote swap would be the second most economical way to go and the modern Hemi would, by far, be the most expensive.   Once again, I don't want to LS swap my car, but I can totally understand your thinking.  If you wanted to spend the same amount of money as a 6.4L Hemi swap then you could probably do an LS7 swap and have tons more power for the same money.       GM drivetrain will always be cheaper then Mopar, that's just how it is.        Since everyone is saying the 518 is a better transmission, could you cut the bell off and run a adapter to run the 518 behind an LS? 

[Mike DC]

  
The 518 is a decent option but it still has drawbacks.  


It takes less severe hacking than the bigger trans swaps, but it still takes hacking.  Most of the crossmember around the hump gets removed.  

The fluid pan (and the valvebody inside it) hangs down 1" lower than muscle-era 727s.

The 1st and 2nd gears are unchanged from the 727s, which means they are relatively high.  

The bell is one piece with the rest of the housing.    

[JR]

While I have no plans to LS swap my Charger, I can understand where you're coming from.   You want a modern drivetrain swap, and the LS is the most economical way to do that.  The Ford coyote swap would be the second most economical way to go and the modern Hemi would, by far, be the most expensive.   Once again, I don't want to LS swap my car, but I can totally understand your thinking.  If you wanted to spend the same amount of money as a 6.4L Hemi swap then you could probably do an LS7 swap and have tons more power for the same money.       GM drivetrain will always be cheaper then Mopar, that's just how it is.        

100 percent dead on Garner.

[c00nhunterjoe]

Economical? Maybe for a junkyard swap but not to actually build one to perform as keeps being stated.... a GOOD aluminum ls block is 5000 bucks... a GOOD set of aluminum ls heads are 4,000. All of the prices to build an ls are in line with any other make. The cheapest engine to build is the old gm pushrod v8 283/327/350 style. But that is not what we are discussing here.
   The trans is no different. A 4l60 that will survive for a little while behind what the op wants to do is going to cost upwards of 5k. And its not going to live. Period. Why? Because the 4l is about the same size as the turbo 350 it replaced... wait- how did they do that? Oh, thats right, they made everything inside smaller and in turn, weaker. And you want to dump it in a 2 ton car with a potentially upgraded ls engine... its gonna scatter. I dont care how good it is built, the case is not large enough to accommodate the power. And street tires dont mean a thing to make it live.
   I dont care what brand, what style, what color parts you put into your car. Ive done enough builds of all makes to tell you that you are about to waste a bunch of money. I cant stop you, its your car and your money. But i will be sitting here watching the build crash and burn ready to say i told you when you are having fitment issues and parts start failing. I beat the dead horse here to try and help you NOT go down that path. But there is only so much you can do.

[Mike DC]

                      

The cheapest engine to build is the old gm pushrod v8 283/327/350 style. But that is not what we are discussing here.

I wonder which would cause more griping in a Charger in 2019 - a SBC or an LS?  


Granted, it's not relevant to the original question.  He basically wants an LS because of how it differs from a SBC.

[Kern Dog]

Maybe work a deal with THIS guy ??

https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/item/541942133246389/

[JR]

Joe, I gotcha man. The 4l60 is gonna break eventually. I hear that loud and clear. I see I can use a th350 or 4l80 and eliminate this issue. Which I still may. Understood 100 percent.

I'm not chasing a 1200 hp turbo build here. I'd probably be content with an iron block 5.3 and a cam swap/tune. I'm not shooting for the moon with horsepower. Maybe one day down the road.


Honestly, id be happy with this. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.hotrod.com/articles/70hp-5-3l-ls-isky-cam-swap/amp/

[c00nhunterjoe]

Joe, I gotcha man. The 4l60 is gonna break eventually. I hear that loud and clear. I see I can use a th350 or 4l80 and eliminate this issue. Which I still may. Understood 100 percent.

I'm not chasing a 1200 hp turbo build here. I'd probably be content with an iron block 5.3 and a cam swap/tune. I'm not shooting for the moon with horsepower. Maybe one day down the road.


Honestly, id be happy with this. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.hotrod.com/articles/70hp-5-3l-ls-isky-cam-swap/amp/

The 5.3 in that link will scatter a 4l60.

[Kern Dog]

After having 2 or 3 transmissions conking out, wouldn't the overall time and expense be about the same?

[JR]

After having 2 or 3 transmissions conking out, wouldn't the overall time and expense be about the same?

I really thought the Mopar faithful would be appreciative of me not wanting to cut the floor in a rust free R/T. Fine. 4l80 it is.

[Kern Dog]

After having 2 or 3 transmissions conking out, wouldn't the overall time and expense be about the same?

I really thought the Mopar faithful would be appreciative of me not wanting to cut the floor in a rust free R/T. Fine. 4l80 it is.

Hey...You are starting to sound as logical as the guy that crushed the car because he thought people were not willing to pay his crazy price for it.

[flyinlow]

Everything breaks eventually.

I have a 2002 Z28 with 80K. on it . LS is fine. 4l65E (or what ever number it is) is fine. Rear axle I have fixed twice.

Drop the stuff in. Post some pictures. Have fun.

And remember, Chevy engines and transmissions are like Lawyers ... no body gets upset if you kill one.

[JB400]

Personally, I'd think the cost and the time involved  to install a ls would be  comparable to just sticking with a Mopar brand engine.

[Kern Dog]

I was wondering what you'd have to do to the K member to make motor mounts work. Would the steering box and linkage pose fitment problems? What kind of throttle design do they use? ALL GM transmissions have the cooler lines on the right side too. What would you use for a shifter ?

[JR]

I was wondering what you'd have to do to the K member to make motor mounts work. Would the steering box and linkage pose fitment problems? What kind of throttle design do they use? ALL GM transmissions have the cooler lines on the right side too. What would you use for a shifter ?

C5 Corvette engine mount brackets are popular with the few guys who have done the swap. The GTO used a rear sump oil pan. If not, there are countless aftermarket ones available. I will likely use an earlier throttle body that used throttle by cable instead of the later drive by wire. (Personal preference, I hate drive by wire.) I will likely fab the trans crossmember from scratch, and will figure out shifter linkage when I get there.  There are a ton of different applications for the LS, and each has its own pulley arrangement with the accessories in a different location. It won't be hard to find one.

[c00nhunterjoe]

Mounts are not bad to fab in any swap. If you drop the k frame, or even go tubular as that is bolt on and non intrusive, you could probably drop the whole frame and drop the custom trans crossmember, change the pinion angle, and possibly fit the 4l80 without any floor modifications. The lowered drivetrain would help with distribution in the autocross aspect as well.

[JR]

I'm down for the tubular k frame. That's a good idea. That would free up more room for the oil pan and accessories, too.

[myk]

Whatever happened to this swap?  I really hope you didn't go with the 4L60; my '97 Camaro Z28 and '99 Ram Air Firebird are bone stock, never get driven hard and are lighter than our Chargers but eat 4L60's all day long.  I hope you went with something stronger...

[cdr]

Whatever happened to this swap?  I really hope you didn't go with the 4L60; my '97 Camaro Z28 and '99 Ram Air Firebird are bone stock, never get driven hard and are lighter than our Chargers but eat 4L60's all day long.  I hope you went with something stronger...

Hey MYK, your in box is full, I hope you are doing ok.