HELP PAGING FIREFIGHTER AND CHRYCO

71440charger · May 13, 2006, 10:04:36 PM

i also posted in electrical

alright here is the problem i just put a 440 in my 71 charger changed from a 318. when i try to start the car the starter gear just hits the end and does not spin. so i put four diferent starters on the sar and the same thing happend well the motor turns over just fine with a wrench so i know the engine is not to tight. so i took the starter off grounded it and turned the key and the gear just hits the end and does not spin i changedout the starter relay and redone the grounds so now i have no clue what the prob is. thanks.

TylerCharger69 · May 13, 2006, 10:11:42 PM

Do you have the proper torque converter installed with the right number of teeth for that 440 application? Some of those converters are different!!! You aren't using the small block converter in that B/RB tranny are you?? Just a thought

71440charger · May 13, 2006, 10:15:00 PM

na it is the right converter when i took the starter down and grounded it , it just slung the gear to the end and would not spin but when i hooked a battery charger to the starter and grounded it the gear spun and the same on all four starters i have including a new one

TylerCharger69 · May 13, 2006, 10:20:04 PM

so...the starter is spinning freely when it's not mounted...and doesn't when it is???

71440charger · May 13, 2006, 10:25:10 PM

sorta the starter all hooked up on my car just unbolted from the tranny it does the sam thing as if it was in the tranny i unhooked it from the car put a battery charter positive to the bolts and grounded it and it worked like it was suppose to but will not work while on the car

TylerCharger69 · May 13, 2006, 10:29:25 PM

okay....does it sound like it's trying to engage?....in other words....does the solenoid kick in the bendix when bolted on the car?

71440charger · May 13, 2006, 10:32:07 PM

yea it kicks and does not spin like there is a prob with juce or something i even changed out the starter relay

TylerCharger69 · May 13, 2006, 10:35:07 PM

But...it does this installed AND not installed??

71440charger · May 13, 2006, 10:37:27 PM

the starter works when it is not on the car but when on the car it does not work

TylerCharger69 · May 13, 2006, 10:43:50 PM

Well...when it's installed on the car, and it kicks in (or tries to) it tells me it's binding, because it works when it's not installed (spins freely). If there was no indication of engaging, well then I'd say it's an electrical problem...Are you sure the converter is all the way stabbed into the tranny? (recessed considerably inside the bellhousing) if the converter is just about flush with the bell housing...it isn't stabbed all the way in. I've seen this happen a lot of times...That is...if you are for certain that you have the right converter on it. On an electrical note...a possibility....do you have a ground strap from the firewall to the engine???

71440charger · May 13, 2006, 10:46:03 PM

yea the converter is in al the way and my ground is to the fire wall also i have even redone the grounds

Steve P. · May 13, 2006, 11:29:04 PM

I'm not sure I am following this 100%, but as far as the converter goes I would be very sure it's not installed wrong. It's kind of easy to do sometimes. You should hear/feel three clicks when it's going in. To Double check it as it is now you could unbolt it, (index it), and push it back into the tranny. You should have about 1/8th inch between the flex plate and the converter ears. If so you are good to go. Bolt up the converter with some tread lock and go after that electrical problem.

If you only have the converter in by 2 clicks you will take out the pump. Better to check now... My.02

Chryco Psycho · May 14, 2006, 01:45:06 AM

is the battery too low to crank a new engine ?
otherwise I agree with Steve the converter may be jammed in the front of the tranny instead of being fully engaged into the trans

71440charger · May 14, 2006, 07:43:24 AM

na na na the starter when hooked to the car connected to the tranny and not in the tranny it just slings the gear to the end of the shaft. when taken off the car and DC power applied to the starter andgrounded it spins the gear. soi guess i have a short some whear

deputycrawford · May 14, 2006, 02:02:47 PM

My experience with that is that you should load test your battery and clean all your connections. I also believe you have enough amperage to activate the solinoid but not enough to crank the engine. Put a battery booster pack on with your battery and turn it over.

71440charger · May 14, 2006, 03:54:52 PM

yea i tried that could the problem be with the coil wires mixed up

71440charger · May 16, 2006, 09:17:48 PM

i cannot figure it out

TylerCharger69 · May 16, 2006, 09:23:55 PM

coil wires wouldn't be it......After all the posts on this topic, it seems you've pretty much exhausted the electrical theory. I may be wrong, but I still think the trouble lies with the converter...either not stabbed in all the way, or the teeth gear may not be correct on the converter itself. Have you run that same converter with that same setup, starter, etc before??? Is it a stock converter???

Steve P. · May 16, 2006, 09:31:38 PM

Quote from: 71440charger on May 14, 2006, 07:43:24 AM
na na na the starter when hooked to the car connected to the tranny and not in the tranny it just slings the gear to the end of the shaft. when taken off the car and DC power applied to the starter andgrounded it spins the gear. soi guess i have a short some whear

Let me just get this straight.

1) you have bench tested the starter and it fires out and spins. Yes or no ?

2) You wire it up to the cars harness, BUT DO NOT BOLT the starter to the tranny and the starter fires out but will not turn. Yes or no ?

3) You DO have the pos. cable on the Pos. terminal of the battery. Yes or NO ?

4) With the starter installed completely, have you tried to use a jumper cable directly from the pos. terminal to the starter lug? Yes or no ?

TylerCharger69 · May 16, 2006, 09:35:53 PM

The only thing I can come up with, other than the converter theory....electrically.....the fusible link from the starter relay to the starter is toast....perhaps?

?

Steve P. · May 16, 2006, 09:40:54 PM

you didn't answer ?? ?? ?? ??

TylerCharger69 · May 16, 2006, 09:41:29 PM

I'm sorry....I meant from the junction block to the starter relay....fusible link.....jeeeeeeees....sorry 'bout that

TylerCharger69 · May 16, 2006, 09:42:14 PM

lol...I'm waiting too, Steve

Steve P. · May 16, 2006, 09:45:26 PM

Hahahaha,,,,, Like he's out working on his car or something.................

TylerCharger69 · May 16, 2006, 09:46:40 PM

He's trying the jumper cable thing...lol!!! I'm just guessing

Steve P. · May 16, 2006, 09:48:36 PM

That's where I would have started when it didn't want to turn.

TylerCharger69 · May 16, 2006, 09:50:36 PM

I was thinking a bad ground, ground strap, or something, and he said he tried all that.....just one of those things where "ya have to be there"....lol

TylerCharger69 · May 16, 2006, 09:52:50 PM

Quote from: 71440charger on May 13, 2006, 10:37:27 PM
the starter works when it is not on the car but when on the car it does not work

This is what made me think converter issues

71440charger · May 17, 2006, 07:35:09 AM

sorry guys i had went to bed had to get up early

Quote from: Steve P. on May 16, 2006, 09:31:38 PM
Quote from: 71440charger on May 14, 2006, 07:43:24 AM
na na na the starter when hooked to the car connected to the tranny and not in the tranny it just slings the gear to the end of the shaft. when taken off the car and DC power applied to the starter andgrounded it spins the gear. soi guess i have a short some whear

Let me just get this straight.

1) you have bench tested the starter and it fires out and spins. Yes or no ?

2) You wire it up to the cars harness, BUT DO NOT BOLT the starter to the tranny and the starter fires out but will not turn. Yes or no ?

3) You DO have the pos. cable on the Pos. terminal of the battery. Yes or NO ?

4) With the starter installed completely, have you tried to use a jumper cable directly from the pos. terminal to the starter lug? Yes or no ?

1 yea
2 yes
3 yes
4 yes i believe if i know what you are talking about

Quote from: TylerCharger69 on May 16, 2006, 09:52:50 PM
Quote from: 71440charger on May 13, 2006, 10:37:27 PM
the starter works when it is not on the car but when on the car it does not work
This is what made me think converter issues

this is true but this converter is correct and the teeth are fine but when the starter is not inside the tranny but hooked to the car it does the same thing but when off the car it works just fine.

Quote from: TylerCharger69 on May 16, 2006, 09:41:29 PM
I'm sorry....I meant from the junction block to the starter relay....fusible link.....jeeeeeeees....sorry 'bout that

i havent tried this but i have got power on both sides of the fuse and i have redone all of the grounds to the motor. this is nuts!!!

TylerCharger69 · May 17, 2006, 07:59:25 AM

Let me ask this...where did the converter come from?

71440charger · May 17, 2006, 08:12:29 AM

a big block 727 tranny

Steve P. · May 17, 2006, 08:33:59 AM

Ok, so just to be sure it is NOT the converter. Have you marked the position of the converter, unbolted it and pushed the converter BACK INTO the tranny?? You should have a gap between the converter and the flex plate of 1/8" if it is propper. If you have NO gap the converter is not installed all the way in and will destroy the tranny pump. This can also be the reason the starter does NOT want to turn when installed.

As I said before, better safe than sorry!!

71440charger · May 17, 2006, 08:51:05 AM

yea it is in right but the starter will not work when grounded out out of the tranny but will work on another car so it is something electrical on my car

firefighter3931 · May 17, 2006, 11:38:54 AM

Just saw this post....Starter relay switch or neutral safety switch...it's one or the other.

Have you tried jumping it at the starter relay with a screwdriver ?

Ron

71440charger · May 17, 2006, 11:43:10 AM

yea jumped it over with the screwdriver
still nothing

TylerCharger69 · May 17, 2006, 12:30:25 PM

Try jumping the starter relay with a screwdriver.....the one on the firewall below the junction connector block. If it isn't any one of these things....It HAS to be an issue with the converter....there are more than one different converters that go on these cars. The tooth gear around the converter come in different sizes....Some are wider than others. Can you take a photo of the converter that is in the car now?....from the bottom?

TylerCharger69 · May 17, 2006, 12:43:43 PM

71440charger.....go to chat....

TylerCharger69 · May 17, 2006, 01:06:37 PM

Sorry...these photos are so small....but look at the tooth ring gear......which one resembles the one you have? I still think it's a converter problem if it isnt relay, solenoid, ground connections...etc.....for the record.....when the starter is not installed and still connected to the cars harness.....it will not work because the housing has to be bolted to the block....grounded. It seems you've exhausted all electrical possibilities.....but...which one of these resembles yours?....Both are B/RB converters

TylerCharger69 · May 17, 2006, 01:10:28 PM

Note...the ring gear is wider on the bottom photo and different number of teeth than the top photo. Assuming the TC is stabbed in all the way as Firefighter has stated.....which is correct. You should be able to spin the converter by itself before bolting it to the flexplate, and about 1/8 inch gap between the ears and flex plate.

71440charger · May 17, 2006, 04:25:13 PM

when the starter is not in the tranny we ground it out

TylerCharger69 · May 17, 2006, 06:09:44 PM

okay...but tell me...which one of those converters resembles the one you have??

71440charger · May 17, 2006, 09:54:55 PM

it started i finally got it started the problem wan the new positive wire running to the starter it was broken inside the insulation got a new one and it worked i fired it up and ran wonderful now i just have to hook everything up and do all the mickey mouse stuff and iam good to go thanks for all of the help guys. woooo hooo

Steve P. · May 17, 2006, 10:01:00 PM

Glad to hear you figured it out...

TylerCharger69 · May 17, 2006, 10:10:25 PM

Cool!!!! Now drive it dammit!!!.....lol I assumed all the wires were checked before trying to diagnose your issue. Glad it WAS electrical. I've seen some unfortunate souls either put in the wrong converter..(i.e. small block converter in a big block tranny) or not have them stabbed in all the way and SNAPPO!!!! wasting the front pump and breaking off the eccentric that catches the pump. I've seen starters bind because of that too, which is why I leaned toward that. Glad you fixed it!!!!

71440charger · May 17, 2006, 10:28:39 PM

yea me to thanks for ala the help

i shall be driving this weekend i hope going to put the new headers on and all the rest of the stuff.

firefighter3931 · May 18, 2006, 08:44:59 AM

Good news

What about the neutral safety switch ?

Ron

71440charger · May 18, 2006, 08:50:31 AM

nope still not wired up i am going to wire it but it started right up well it was a 180 off but after that it fired right up should have heard it it was my first big block build so i was pleased got a lot of power in that 440

firefighter3931 · May 18, 2006, 08:55:14 AM

Is this a fresh build ? Virgin cam & lifters ?

If so you don't want to run the motor for short bursts until the cam is properly broken in....just so you know.

Neutral safety switch must be grounded if it's turning over.

Ron

71440charger · May 18, 2006, 09:00:07 AM

yes fres build but the cam was broken in already not use for but not even 100 mi. but we let it run for a little while not to long

firefighter3931 · May 18, 2006, 09:09:19 AM

Quote from: 71440charger on May 18, 2006, 09:00:07 AM
yes fres build but the cam was broken in already not use for but not even 100 mi. but we let it run for a little while not to long

Good....ya had me worried there for a second !

Ron

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HELP PAGING FIREFIGHTER AND CHRYCO