Sanden A/C pump not fitting 440 with an aluminum WP housing?

[Kern Dog]

I'm in the last steps of the A/C installation in my '70 Charger. I am using a kit from Classic Auto Air. The kit has quality stuff in it but there have been some obstacles and snags. The instructions are often vague and unhelpful. They are incomplete and there are pages missing. I have found solutions on my own but I have now hit a big hurdle. The Sanden compressor hits the thermostat housing before the mounting bolts line up.
I did a mock up with all the correct A/C brackets and pulleys...WE all know that the A/C and NON A/C engines used different everything. My '71 440 has an iron WP housing and everything fits.
My Charger now has an aftermarket aluminum housing and the thermostat sits up 5/8" higher on it. The attachment points for everything like alternator and power steering are the same but the thermostat is up higher. I never noticed before because it wasn't in the way of anything.
I am going to call them tomorrow. Maybe they have different brackets for cars using an aluminum WP housing? If so, why not just include that set in the kit?

[b5blue]

I've got CAA A/C on my 70 and it fit my 440 per instructions. I opted not to install the funky compressor rear bracket that has you remove and hack the power steering spacer. (Running fine without it.) I've got stock W.P. housing, CH4B intake and Sidewinder aluminum heads. I'll check mine today. 

[Kern Dog]

Yeah, that reminds me...
The rear bracket does sit in a weird position. The P/S bracket has a welded threaded nut on the rear section. The Bouchillon bracket doesn't want to fit over it. I have nothing in my instructions that mentions how to make it work. I was thinking that I'd have to grind the welded nut much thinner to slip the A/C bracket back there and then use a different nut.

[will]

On my 383 with that kit the temperature indicator thermistor isn't hooked up because of the interference. I have fitech so I can see the temp. Going with the serpentine setup on my 440 upgrade. Sometimes they don't take everything into account when they design these kits, as I'm sure you are now well aware. Be careful with the condensate "map" that comes with the instructions, it was off on my 68.

[Kern Dog]

So far today I talked with a guy at Classic Auto Air and their bracket supplier, Bouchillon performance.
They make different height brackets because of the differences in the thermostat position so I ordered a set of the taller brackets. He said that they make 2 designs because cars with Shaker hoods need the lower mounting position to clear the Shaker bubble. The rear PS bracket nut does need to be cut or ground off and a new nut used. THis is what made sense but I didn't see it written anywhere. Maybe I lost the instructions. I bought this kit Feb 2018 and have had the boxes open several times. Stuff gets lost that way.
The instructions in the CAA kit are a mixed bag....In some cases they are really great, in others they are either vague or missing pages entirely. I lost the original set of instructions and had to have a new set sent via email to a PDF. I'm not a tech guy...I barely understand what I just wrote. The PDF had pages missing, that is the short explanation. I had to find ways around a few steps of the install and I did BUT....They emailed the revised instructions and while they are better, there are still instances where matters are not clearly explained. Maybe they expect the customer to find their way through a matter or call them to rectify. One problem is their previous manner to drill a new hole for the evaporator drain. They included a template on paper as to where the new hole is positioned. I followed their instructions and the hole turned out to be off by 1 1/4"...GREAT, now I had yet another hole to block off. Their revised instructions showed to determine the hole the same way that I figured out for myself...Put the unit in and drill the hole in place after seeing where the unit is going to stay. Mine is not a show car but I certainly don't want a bunch of holes in it that don't need to be there.

[green69rt]

So far today I talked with a guy at Classic Auto Air and their bracket supplier, Bouchillon performance.
They make different height brackets because of the differences in the thermostat position so I ordered a set of the taller brackets. He said that they make 2 designs because cars with Shaker hoods need the lower mounting position to clear the Shaker bubble. The rear PS bracket nut does need to be cut or ground off and a new nut used. THis is what made sense but I didn't see it written anywhere. Maybe I lost the instructions. I bought this kit Feb 2018 and have had the boxes open several times. Stuff gets lost that way.
The instructions in the CAA kit are a mixed bag....In some cases they are really great, in others they are either vague or missing pages entirely. I lost the original set of instructions and had to have a new set sent via email to a PDF. I'm not a tech guy...I barely understand what I just wrote. The PDF had pages missing, that is the short explanation. I had to find ways around a few steps of the install and I did BUT....They emailed the revised instructions and while they are better, there are still instances where matters are not clearly explained. Maybe they expect the customer to find their way through a matter or call them to rectify. One problem is their previous manner to drill a new hole for the evaporator drain. They included a template on paper as to where the new hole is positioned. I followed their instructions and the hole turned out to be off by 1 1/4"...GREAT, now I had yet another hole to block off. Their revised instructions showed to determine the hole the same way that I figured out for myself...Put the unit in and drill the hole in place after seeing where the unit is going to stay. Mine is not a show car but I certainly don't want a bunch of holes in it that don't need to be there.

Your problems with the drain is exactly what I found.   What they don't tell you is that the paper pattern that is supplied with the instruction is NOT to scale.  I had to go to their website and print that same page on my printer with the size set to 100%.  That black square on the template will tell you if the template is printed to scale, my first copy was not.  And even then I did what you ended up doing, mount the box, mark the hole then drill.

[Kern Dog]

Most of the stuff that I have encountered with the kit would not be much of a problem for future installations. When I do something unfamiliar for the first time, I read and trust the directions to steer me the right way. These did not. They led me in the direction but left out details that would have really helped avoid a lot of WTF moments and cuss words.

[green69rt]

Most of the stuff that I have encountered with the kit would not be much of a problem for future installations. When I do something unfamiliar for the first time, I read and trust the directions to steer me the right way. These did not. They led me in the direction but left out details that would have really helped avoid a lot of WTF moments and cuss words.

Yeap, happens a lot.  When I started my project car I assumed that all the parts would fit without mods, big learning curve!

[Kern Dog]

Well, I feel like a bit of an ass.
I was looking around in the shop and found some instructions that were with the compressor and brackets. It DOES state that the compressor can be mounted at zero or 90 degrees each side from there. THAT is nowhere in the main instructions.

Another thing that I was not ready for: I have to change other things to make room for the A/C equipment.
The heater hoses, A/C equipment and such take up a lot of space so checking the trans dipstick is going to be difficult.
The relocated alternator hit the fuel line I made so I have to make another to fit the cramped space.
The condenser needs to be right where I've had the external trans cooler for 18 years.
I can't blame the supplier for these things but I am just surprised to keep running into so many obstacles!

[b5blue]

  Ah yes the joy we live for messing with cars! You got the vent hoses run yet? They get in the way of dash access. My new control set came with one light bulb but I just left lighting it off as not needed. I also opted to not having a glove box, I don't need to keep gloves in my dash. (More room to run vent hose.
  If you had mentioned about instructions I'd copied a set from my records for you. So your good now? Hang in there adding A/C is so worth it!  I had to add a 14" pusher fan to correct idle temp. creeping up. (Stuck in traffic or slow drive through lines.)

[John_Kunkel]

I learned long ago that anyone who goes to install a kit that's made to "fit without modifications" had better have some fabrication skills.

[Kern Dog]

Well, I do agree with that. 

[Kern Dog]

The taller brackets to raise the mounting point of the compressor are due in about Thursday. By then I'll certainly be ready. I have the condenser and lines in, the trans cooler is back in place, the heater hoses are routed and secured and not much remains. I'll need to find someone locally that can crimp the lines.

[69Chrgr]

Any pics of the install?

[Kern Dog]

Yes. Since I have had NON A/C pulleys and brackets on the engine since 2001, I needed to swap over to the equipment compatible with A/C. I went though my stash of parts and started messing around with stuff until it all  lined up. I first tried to make it work with a 3 belt arrangement without that idler pulley (I posted about it on FBBO) A few members advised against it, saying when they tried it, excessive belt slippage was a problem. I had planned on the usual 2 belts for the alternator, A/C compressor and crank and the other belt would have been Fan, P/S and crank.  Some people thought there wasn't enough contact on the water pump/fan pulley to avoid slippage there. I went ahead and admitted defeat and gathered the stuff to do it the factory way of 4 belts.
This is the compressor mocked up on a spare engine. THe P/S pump is not here because it is still in the car.

[Kern Dog]

THe fittings on the compressor are in the position that is shown in the instructions. When installed this way in the car, it will NOT clear the hood! The compressor has to be clocked 90 degrees CCW.

[Kern Dog]

Earlier in the project:
The original HVAC unit is big and heavy. The new one is about half the size and weight. I had to remove the RH seat, the console, shifter and glove box to do the interior part.

[Kern Dog]

Wires and stuff everywhere.

[Kern Dog]

The wiring was the easy part though. Everything is color coded and fits together nicely.
They do tell you to bench test the unit first just in case it has any defects. The instructions I have included a template on where to drill a hole for the evaporator drain. Their template was wrong...I had to block off the wrong hole and drill another one in the right spot.

[Kern Dog]

Routing the ducts was easy. Installing the new HVAC unit was easy. I put sound deadener against the firewall. The new unit only uses 2 of the 5 mouting holes so be prepared to block off those holes somehow. Push plugs can be used, a carriage bolt, a hex bolt and washer, decide for yourself.

Now, engine side:
They supply block off plates because their system used a different pattern for the heater hoses and A/C lines. The black cylinder on the fender apron is the receiver/drier. The instructions are overly simple and not accurate on the installation. They simply state...."Install the drier with supplied bracket" yet the drier hits the sloping arch of the shock tower. It does not sit flat on the fender apron so their bracket would work. I had to make a 3/4" spacer to allow the drier to stand off of the apron and clear.

[Kern Dog]

With the bolts tight, it has clearance and fits nicely. They mention nothing about using a spacer, nor do they supply one.

[Kern Dog]

Heater hoses are in...That was another snag.
I was told that some years used heater hoses of  1/2" and a 5/8" so I ordered fittings for that. I had no heater hoses in place, I had a hose looped from one to the other. I realized that I had 5/8" fittings in both ports on the housing. The instructions show to connect the lower heater core fitting to the intake manifold and the upper to the water pump.
Heater hose to the intake manifold....On a 440 Mopar. Yeah, sure...

[Kern Dog]

This brings us to where this thread began...The A/C compressor does not fit on the WP housing because these aluminum housings, for some reason unknown to me, put the thermostat mounting surface up about 5/8" higher than the cast iron original housings. I called Bouchillon, they are sending out the taller brackets BUT I got an email from them today...Their shipping is delayed because of the hurricane!

[Kern Dog]

I did decide to do a few other things while waiting for the brackets. I installed the condenser.
Here we go again...The instructions SHOW where to install the mounting brackets but again, they are wrong. I have frequently wondered if the idiot that wrote these instructions actually ever worked on a car. Ever.
They show the brackets placed at the upper edges of each top corner. Well, doing that on the drivers side BLOCKS the top fitting to the condenser  and the radiator attachment bolt would hit both sides. Again, have these guys every installed a kit on a car?

[Kern Dog]

I just mounted their brackets lower, low enough to fit and clear. I had to work around the holes in the core support I drilled in 2001 for the external trans cooler lines.

[Kern Dog]

Condensor lines through the core support and secured on the LH fender apron.

[69Chrgr]

That looks like a really nice install!

[green69rt]

Thanks Kern Dog, I'm also using a Classic air system.  I have the interior stuff installed but nothing on the engine bay side.  Your pics will be a great help.

[will]

I have another compressor coming Friday because I'm going with the sd concepts serpentine setup. I might not get to it soon, but I think that compressor comes apart. I did think about changing the position of the hose connections when I put it in, but I didn't want to throw another $300 at it at the time if I was mistaken. I did get my compressor to sit on the engine 'square'. I just don't use the factory temp sender.

[will]

Here's my current setup. This is on a 383, so I'm not certain if this will work in your situation.

[will]

I will post on here when I take that compressor apart to see if it's possible to clock the hose connections. I think it should work, the four bolts on the back are symmetrical. I just don't know the configuration of the internals.

[will]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XHf_RCGjVJQ

[Kern Dog]

Thank you, Will.
The pulley setup you have there looks like what is used when the stock non A/C pulleys are used.

[Kern Dog]

The taller brackets to raise the mounting point of the compressor are due in about Thursday. By then I'll certainly be ready. I have the condenser and lines in, the trans cooler is back in place, the heater hoses are routed and secured and not much remains. I'll need to find someone locally that can crimp the lines.

The brackets are STILL not here. Bouchillon blamed the delay on the Hurricane.
In the meantime, I've been looking at how to reroute the liquid line. The kit routes it from the condenser to behind the battery, across the engine, then back to the drier near the firewall. To me, that looks cluttered and too busy.
The liquid line is the bottom fitting on the condenser. Instead of their way, I'm going to route it up then over the hood latch support, toward the passenger side, over the core support then back to the drier.
Now the task is finding a way to do that. I made a drawing:

[Kern Dog]

The main problem with the setup in the drawing is that there are a lot of crimp connectors, each with a chance to leak. Ideally, I'd have one continuous hard line. With measuring tape in hand, I found the following:
A 48" hard line starting at the drier, sitting on the apron, bent to go up and over the core support, turned toward the drivers side would be the hardest part. A 30" hard line starting at the bottom condenser fitting, turning 90 degrees UP along side the side of the condenser, then bent 90 degrees again to point to the passenger side....I could then fill the gap with a section of rubber soft line.

[b5blue]

I see what you are trying to do but aren't the horns going to be in the way? It is "busy" in the engine bay when done but they routed all this to fit with factory holes for several models. What ran/radiator setup are you using? I had to add a pusher to my stock fixed fan/26 radiator just for long periods of @ idle.

[Kern Dog]

My horns don't sit in the stock location.

[will]

I have the new compressor, when I get a chance I'll take a picture of it mounted to the serpentine setup. Hopefully I can get the hoses around the distributor, I'm going to have to order hose fittings and such to route everything. That is one advantage of having a 'down' season, other than the freezing garage.

[Kern Dog]

The new compressor brackets arrived yesterday. They are designed to fit cars with the aluminum water pump housing. They looked nice and had detailed instructions.
It still barely clears the thermostat housing. An aftermarket chrome housing would certainly be too tall.
The hardest part here was the bolt that retains the compressor and power steering. The bolt they include is too long by 1/2" because the Edelbrock heads have that stupid bulged out flat edge. Seed pictures for what I had to do:

[Kern Dog]

I ran a 48" #6 hard line from the drier toward the front, over the core support and then turned to the middle.

[Kern Dog]

From the condenser, I ran a 30" line with 2 90 degree bends. I wasn't sure how far apart the two ends would be but if I ran a 36" second line, they would have fitted together. I'm probably going to replace the 30" line with the longer one. The alternative is to use a 6" section of hose and fittings.

[b5blue]

With the compressor mounted check for interference with fan, that was unexpected issue for my Flex fan.   

[Kern Dog]

Good point. I did hear that elsewhere. Check THIS out:

[Kern Dog]

The 36" hard line arrived today.