EFI - Timing Curve suggestions for 505 stroker AND Opinions about used parts

[rollo1504]

Hello guys!

I want to ask you for some suggestions please.

As maybe some of you have read in another post I was finally able to make a dream come true by buying a restored 68 Charger R/T.

I bought it from a swedish guy. The car is really behaving and running great BUT there are still some questions I would ask you.

My questions are:

1. What is the right timing curve for my application -> What is a good point to start and how shall I proceed to tune it in correctly.
2. What are the estimated HP/TQ as the engine has never been on a dyno
3. What are your opinions about the build used parts?

Please find enclosed the engine and other car details.

As said before, the car is really running great BUT I am not sure if it is already tuned in in a good way or if there is some more space for tuning.

There is a lot of Torque and great acceleration but I do not have something to compare with and so I do not know if this is good for this build or not.


Here are the engine specs:

The 440 source heads are the Stealth heads with all hardware upgraded. (valve springs, spring seats, valve retainer, valve locks and valve seals.)
The heads have also been slightly ported/cleaned up and port matched to the intake.
The stroker kit is the 512 but since it is only bored over 0.030 the cui is 505 cui.

- Stroker Kit         440 Source 440 >> 512. (4.250" stroke/7.100" rod) + PRECISION FINAL BALANCED
  Bore Size:         Dish:      Compression Height:   Distance Below Deck:   65CC   72CC   75CC   78CC   84CC   86CC   88CC   Kit Part#:
  4.350 (.030 over)      -17      1.480"         -.015"         11.85   11.11   10.82   10.55   10.05   9.89   9.74   440.512.5060

- Crankshaft         440 Source Platinum series 4340 steel 4.250" Stroke                     Item Number: 44042506800-6
- Main Bearings         440 Source Clevite V Series Standard RB Engine                        Item Number: MS-1795V
- Balancer         440 Source Fluid Damper - SFI Certified                           Item Number: 200-1023
- Pistons         440 Source Platinum Series 2618 T-6 Forged aluminum billet - 4.350 -17 Dished            Item Number: 5060
- Piston Rings         440 Source Total Seal Total Seal Moly File Fit Rings - 4.350"                  Item Number: CR6490-35
- Connecting Rods      440 Source Platinum Series 4340 Steel heat treated H Beam Connecting Rods w/ ARP 8740 Bolts      Item Number: 7100.990.2200.8740-H      
- Rod Bearings         440 Source Clevite Chevy Size H Series Rod Bearings STD                     Item Number: CB-743HN
- Cam Bearings         440 Source USA Made Cam Bearings - Set of 5                        Item Number: 108-1017
- Cylinder Heads      440 Source Stealth Aluminum Cylinder Head + slightly ported/cleaned+port matched to intake      Item Number: 200-1055
- Camshaft         CompCams Xtreme Energy™ Retro-Fit Hydraulic Roller Camshaft XR286HR-10               CompCams Item Number: 23-712-9
- Valve Springs         CompCams Beehive™                                 CompCams Item Number: 26120-16
- Valve Seals         CompCams Metal Body Viton Seal, .530 Guide, 11/32                     CompCams Item Number: 529-16
- Valve Locks         CompCams Super Locks™: 10° Angle, 11/32" Stem Size                     CompCams Item Number: 614-16
- Valve Retainers      CompCams 10° Steel Retainers: 1.095" Spring Dia.                     CompCams Item Number: 795-16
- Valve Locators      CompCams Lower Seat for 26120 w/ .570 Guide                        CompCams Item Number: 4696-16
- Roller Lifters      CompCams Retro-Fit Hydraulic Roller Lifters; Chrysler Big Block, 330-440            CompCams Item Number: 8921-16
- Roller Rockers      Mancini Racing Aluminum Roller Rocker Arm Kit 1.5 Ratio with Billet Holddowns            Mancini Item Number: MRE57001-15-714
- Rocker Arms         Mancini Racing Harland Sharp Heavy-Duty Rocker Shafts                     Mancini Item Number: SHPPR7001-78
- Push Rods         Smith Bros. 5/16" O.D. x 0.83 Heat Treated 4130 Chromoly Steel Construction
            C5732A  5/32 R CUP
            B5732SA 5/32 R BALL
- Oil Pan         440 Source 1970-71 Hemi E Body - 6 Quart Oil Pan                     Item Number: 200-1123
- Windage Tray         440 Source Windage Tray - Stroker                           Item Number: 127-1002
- Oil Pickup Tube      440 Source 5" Deep Sump - 3/8" thread                           Item Number: 121-1055
- Oil Pump         New STOCK Oil Pump

- Intake         Holley Street Dominator                                 Holley Item Number: 300-14

- EFI            MSD Atomic EFI Master Kit                              Holley Item Number: 2900
- Ignition Control      MSD Digital 6A                                    Holley Item Number: 6201
- Coil            MSD High Vibration Blaster Coil                              Holley Item Number: 8222
- Rotor            MSD ROTOR PHASING KIT FOR MSD DISTRIBUTORS                        Holley Item Number: 84211
- Distributor         MSD Chrysler 426,440 Pro-Billet Distributor                        Holley Item Number: 8546
- Tach/Fuel Adapter      MSD TACH/FUEL ADAPTER                                 Holley Item Number: 8920
- Fuel Pump         MSD came with Atomic EFI Master Kit but exact model unknown
- Fuel Regulator      Aeromotive Universal Bypass Regulator                           Aeromotive Item Number: 13129                              
- Spark Plugs         Champion RC12YC

- Headers         TTI 1-7/8" with 3" Collectors POLISHED CERAMIC COATED with a thermal barrier            TTI Item Number: TTi 440-178C5
- Exhaust         TTI 2,5" H-Pipe Design                                 TTI Item Number: B25MWM6870

- Transmission         CopeRacing 727-3 PROSTREET Automatic-Shift, Valve Body with Trans-Go TF-2 Shift Kit         CopeRacing Item Number: 727-3
- Torque Converter      CopeRacing PTC 9.5" 3000 Stall                              CopeRacing Item Number: PTC 9.5

- Rear End         Original Suregrip 3:23

- Shocks         Bilstein High Performance Kit Set of 4                           PST Item Number: BIL7056065
- Front End Kit         Polygraphite Performance Super Front End Kit                        PST Item Number: FEKSPDOD681
- Bushing Info         ALL Polygraphite
- Idler & Pitman Arm      Fast Ratio Kit Idler + Pitman                              PST Item Number: IAPI18744FR

- Radiator         U.S. Radiator 22″, Alu, with A/T oil cooler                        Moparshop Item Number: AL035219ANDZ


Thanks

Roland

[c00nhunterjoe]

Is your system set up for adjustment?  Do you have the distributor locked out, and timing controller already?

[rollo1504]

Yes, dist is locked out and timing control is enabled already...

Here you can see the acutal set values:

Timing Method:   EFI controlled

Initial Setup:

Cubic Inches: 505
Cylinders: 8
Camshaft: Performance
Fuel Pump: No PWM with Return and Regulator
Air Pump: NO
Idle RPM Target: 800
Rev Limit: 5000
Timing Control: Enabled

Advanced Setup:
A/F targets:
Idle: 0.96 Lambda --> 14.05 AFR
Cruise: 0.96 Lambda --> 14.05 AFR
Wot: 0.87 Lambda --> 12.74 AFR
Nitrous: Off
Boost: 0.81 Lambda --> 11.86 AFR

Ignition Timing:
Idle RPM: 850
Total RPM: 2500
Idle Advance: 15.0
Total Advance: 34.0
Vacuum Advance: 10.0
Vacuum Type: Ported
Nitrous Retard: Off
Boost retard: 1,5
Pump Squirt: 25%
Power Valve Enrich: 30%
Nitrous Controll: Disabled

Thanks

Roland

[cdr]

Idle needs to be 20-25 , the rest looks good.

[c00nhunterjoe]

What he said- then bump the total up 2 degrees and check for knock. You should be able to run a little more total depending on your altitude and fuel quality.

[rollo1504]

Hey,

@cdr: You mean changing the Idle Advance: 15.0 --> 20-25
@c00nhunterjoed -> Total timing: 34.0 --> 36

The fuel we have in Austria is only 95 or 98 and I am living at 2500 ft above sea level.

When driving around with the car it is moved  between 800-2500 ft above sea level.

Another question (sorry if it sounds dumb) concerning the pinging/knockings. If I increase the total timing and I will come to the "magical" limit where pinging starts, will I hear the engine start pinging when it is just idling or will I need to get her on the road and drive and listen to it?

And concerning the A/F ratio I would like to set everything slightly richer. Because I think if I set up the A/F ratio to the sealevel where I live 2500 ft. and I will be on the road and drive to lower sea levels the motor will tend to run too lean right? Or is the EFI that intelligent that I recognizes it and adjust it?

Thanks for your suggestions.

I really appreciate that

Regards Roland

PS: What do you guys think about the parts used for the engine and what HP/TQ would you estimate?

[Challenger340]

* The Holley SD Intakes have a poor port alignment with the Stealth Heads, with ~1/8" to ~3/16" mis-match that is not easily corrected(NOT corrected) within a simple Head Port Match, it simply does not work that way. It matters not moving the Intake ahead to try and correct the port mismatch at the rear, it just exacerbates the offset at the front... and vice versa when trying to move to the front. Same is true on EDDY's/E-Streets etc., NOT just the Stealth's.
* The Stealth Heads in the real world without actual seat angle changes/mods and back-cutting, are most probably still in the 260 cfm range at that cam Lift.
* Fuel Injection sacrifices power for running characteristics.

around 540-560 hp at 5300 rpm, and around 580-600 Ft/Lbs @ 4000 rpm   

Best get it on a wheel Dyno to be sure ?
but I suspect not much point trying to rpm the engine much past low 5,000's, (forget the published 6,200 rpm upper Cam range,) because as you will find on a Wheel Dyno it's all done much lower.

Fun Engine  and better to move the Heavy Car working off the lower rpm Trq curve anyways. 

[cdr]

on my 512 , non computer controlled timing, as of today, 24 initial, 34 total, 10 more on ported vac adv

[303 Mopar]

If you are using ECU controlled timing, you only have 4 settings with a Sniper. What are your settings here?
- Cranking Timing (timing with no mechanical advance and no vacuum advance)
- Idle Timing (timing with vacuum advance only)
- Cruise Timing (full mechanical and vacuum advance)
- WOT Timing (mechanical advance only)

[rollo1504]

If you are using ECU controlled timing, you only have 4 settings with a Sniper. What are your settings here?
- Cranking Timing (timing with no mechanical advance and no vacuum advance)
- Idle Timing (timing with vacuum advance only)
- Cruise Timing (full mechanical and vacuum advance)
- WOT Timing (mechanical advance only)

The settings shown above are ALL settings the MSD handheld has... there is no WOT timing nor cruise timing or cranking timing....

...
...
...

Ah sorry, totally forgot to tell you what EFI system I have -> MSD Atomic Master Kit PN2910

[rollo1504]

Hey folks,

There was always bad weather so no possibility for testing but today....

I was able to resolve the riddle with the IAC sensor, correct throttle blade adjustment and so on.

I have now adjusted the timing curve to:

Curve starts (idle rpm) at 800
Curve ends  (total rpm) at 2500

idle advance = 24 degrees
total advance = 36 degrees

have set the EFI to run the engine when in park at 750 rpm

Now my baby runs like badass..... DAMN! A looot of torque right off the start.

@cdr: your suggestion with 24 degrees idle was right spot on!

Another question here would be from my side: I have set the idle speed to 750 rpm but the curve to start at 800 rpm -> Is this a problem? Shall I set the curve startpoint to the same rpm as my idle rpm?

What happens for example if my idle rpm is 750 and I would set my timing curve start point to I would say 1100 rpm?

Thanks for your explanations!

I also stepped up total timing from 34 to 36 degrees... still no pinging... Can I try increasing it until it pings and then step back?

[BSB67]

on my 512 , non computer controlled timing, as of today, 24 initial, 34 total, 10 more on ported vac adv

Cdr, where are you shifting your's at?  Where do you think the OP should be shifting?

[cdr]

on my 512 , non computer controlled timing, as of today, 24 initial, 34 total, 10 more on ported vac adv

Cdr, where are you shifting your's at?  Where do you think the OP should be shifting?

Hello Russ,So far I have only made two 1/4 passes with my current set up, I short shifted at 5500 just shaking the car down making sure everything was ok , it got to hot at the track for ME so I went home, the outside temps are great now, going to go to the track very soon & do some tuning & try different shift points, on the street I have run it up to 6500 rpm & it seems to like it, testing at the track will tell what it wants, as for the OP'S shift rpm, I would say start at 5300ish & go up from there & see what the engine likes, it is a small cam & heads for that CID so it wont like a lot of RPM, Test & tune
Charlie

[BSB67]

I asked because you're the guy that would know what works in the real world with a HR.  His cam and heads are not that much smaller and figured it would be close enough.

If his valve train is staying compliant at rpm, he could simply be leaving a lot on the table due to shifting too early.  But maybe not.

[cdr]

When I get some more track data I will post it on here, good or bad, I think mine will like 6500 ish  1st to 2nd,, 6200 ish 2nd to 3rd, I will also do some data logging on rpm/AFR, from past experience AFR's tend to go wacky when the valve train gets unstable, I think there is more in my combo, I just hope I can get by with no roll bar.

[Mr Harley]

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