Oil sludge tar on my cylinders???!!

[rikubot]

I've got the engine out of my car for some new gaskets and a paintjob and I decided to pulle the heads to check them out. I think my rings are shot. The ridge on the walls isn't very pronounced as there have probably only been about 10k miles on it since the rebuild. What are my best options on getting this thing back together right? Can you tell what compression pistons it has by looking? I don't have a tool to measure the distance of the deck to top of piston but I do have a friend that's supposed to let me borrow his. I hope I'm not looking at ANOTHER rebuild...

[70 sublime]

Does it have just the one piston with the lower center on it ?
I would have thought they should all be the same flat top

[BSB67]

You don't have a straight edge and a feeler gauge?

Why would you think the rings are bad after 10K?

[rikubot]

Does it have just the one piston with the lower center on it ?
I would have thought they should all be the same flat top

I'm not sure why the picture looks like that. The pistons all have flat tops. Optical illusion I guess haha.

[rikubot]

You don't have a straight edge and a feeler gauge?

Why would you think the rings are bad after 10K?

I don't. I'm sure my buddy will let me use his for now. What Numbers am I looking for? The pistons come pretty close to the deck but I can't remember what the clearance looked like for the RV motor I pulled apart.

I know that the motor was run with low oil for a little while. Not sure how low but I was wondering if that had something to do with the rings letting oil by. However there is no physical damage as far as I know.

[rikubot]

Can you tell right off if the pistons are correct for an HP block or do they look like the 8-to-1 pistons?

[Challenger340]

Can you tell right off if the pistons are correct for an HP block or do they look like the 8-to-1 pistons?

Says "350P" in .040" oversize right there on the top of one of your Pistons ?

Sealed Power 350P 1.99" Compression Distance, or "supposed" to sit about .090" down hole @ TDC, meaning with an open chamber head and composition style Head Gskt right around a whopping 8.5:1

In the real world and depending upon the Block Ht., most sit .100" to .105" down, and no, they are NOT "correct" for an HP Block because there is NO SUCH THING as a "correct" factory replacement Cast "rebuilder" style Piston for the '68-'70 Magnum Engines.
Closest thing to a factory "correct" Piston is the Six-Pack replacement Piston sold by Speed Pro under Part# L2355, and those aren't "10.5" as advertised either... closer to 9.5:1 with an open chamber Head/Composition Head Gskt.

[rikubot]

Thanks for deciphering that for me. So an HP block with 8 to 1 compression pistons would explain why the car had felt like a turd the day we got it home from the mechanic. It was rebuilt in about 2003 when I was fifteen. Honestly it was probably better they put in the low comp pistons for a 15 year old. I exaggerate a tad when I say "turd", but it definitely didn't put you back in the seat the way a 440 should.

I really don't care what kind of pistons are in there, but I'd like to get as close to the 375 (or more) HP that the thing had in '69. I think I want something like 10 to 1, right? Am I looking at a complete rebuild? I don't want to put this thing back together with 8 to 1s. That would be a shame!

[BSB67]

Well prepped 915 heads, or 75 cc Aluminum head.  The well prepped 915 will be more costly.  98% of the time well prepped 915 will mean you'll pay $500 for junk 915s and put $1500+ into them.  Add a 222° - 224° cam, dual plane aluminum intake and a good carb.  It will run real well.   It will probably make around 375 hp, which will be considerably more than the factory rated 375 hp 440 really made.  You'll probably have close to $3000 in it

If you rebuild it, it will be a lot more money.

Buy some feeler gauges. 

[Challenger340]

Thanks for deciphering that for me. So an HP block with 8 to 1 compression pistons would explain why the car had felt like a turd the day we got it home from the mechanic. It was rebuilt in about 2003 when I was fifteen. Honestly it was probably better they put in the low comp pistons for a 15 year old. I exaggerate a tad when I say "turd", but it definitely didn't put you back in the seat the way a 440 should.

I really don't care what kind of pistons are in there, but I'd like to get as close to the 375 (or more) HP that the thing had in '69. I think I want something like 10 to 1, right? Am I looking at a complete rebuild? I don't want to put this thing back together with 8 to 1s. That would be a shame!

Part of the problem in any "update" considered utilizing the current 1.99" Ht Pistons, and applying today's more current engine technologies and fuels, is the lack of any quench distance whatsoever even with the 75cc Edelbrock heads with the Pistons so far down hole.
I noticed you are in Colorado, but no idea where specifically, however, am I correct in assuming some "elevation" where you live ?

Some further diagnostics may be in order before planning any course of action, let be plunging for Heads/Cam on the current shortblock unsure of risk/reward/viability at this point ?
While spending for a rebuild can also a slippery slope going into the shortblock itself... ultimately it can be less painful than doing things twice ?

You mentioned you think your rings are shot ?
Why so ?
If it was burning Oil from the rings Before ? Heads are NOT going to fix that.
Are your Cylinder Walls glazed up ?

You also mentioned something about the Engine was run with low oil pressure ?  What happened there ? and how was it fixed ?

[rikubot]

I am in Pueblo, about an hour south of Denver but at about 4,700 feet.

I am not sure if my rings are shot, but I can't think of why I'd be getting so much blow-by (correct term?). I did have a fair amount of oil accumulation on certain plugs after a few hundred miles.

I hadn't considered getting heads as it would be too far out of budget. But since there aren't a lot of miles on this rebuild the wear inside the cylinders looks extremely minimal and there is crosshatch visible. I might get crucified for proposing this but is there any way I could JUST replace the pistons, rings, and bearings (just to be sure)? And with something close to a 10-1 compression? If I remember correctly I have the 906 open chambered heads.

[BSB67]

I am in Pueblo, about an hour south of Denver but at about 4,700 feet.

I am not sure if my rings are shot, but I can't think of why I'd be getting so much blow-by (correct term?). I did have a fair amount of oil accumulation on certain plugs after a few hundred miles.

I hadn't considered getting heads as it would be too far out of budget. But since there aren't a lot of miles on this rebuild the wear inside the cylinders looks extremely minimal and there is crosshatch visible. I might get crucified for proposing this but is there any way I could JUST replace the pistons, rings, and bearings (just to be sure)? And with something close to a 10-1 compression? If I remember correctly I have the 906 open chambered heads.

Did you measure blow by or leak down when the motor was still together?? 

Rings are only one of several reasons there can be oil on plugs.  And are you sure its oil verses carbon from fuel?

If you don't have at least $2000 in your budget, you probably wasted your time pulling the motor.

Do you have any idea how much money was spent on the 906 heads 15 years ago?  Heads are where the power is. 

[rikubot]

I didn't. What would other reasons be for oil in cylinders? I'm not 100% it's oil, but it did feel like slimy and smelled like it. The plugs were gummed up pretty good with what looked like burnt oil.

When you say 2k, what do you include in that? If that's what has to happen, it has to happen. My problem is I don't make a lot of money and I'm ground up restoring a '69 charger. Saved for two years for the body work, which it's getting now. I do as much as I can but I don't touch body work on one of these. I think I've got one weld on a part of the inner structure of the roof.

[Challenger340]

I didn't. What would other reasons be for oil in cylinders? I'm not 100% it's oil, but it did feel like slimy and smelled like it. The plugs were gummed up pretty good with what looked like burnt oil.

When you say 2k, what do you include in that? If that's what has to happen, it has to happen. My problem is I don't make a lot of money and I'm ground up restoring a '69 charger. Saved for two years for the body work, which it's getting now. I do as much as I can but I don't touch body work on one of these. I think I've got one weld on a part of the inner structure of the roof.

It gets real expensive really fast trying to do pretty much anything inside an Engine.

You pretty handy mechanically ?
My suggestion with no budget is to maybe... I say |maybe"..... pull the Pistons, give the Cylinders a Chicken-Ball Hone job and re-ring what you got, and if it's in the budget add a Comp Cams 268H and Lifters.... call it a day.

[Bronzedodge]

Pics of the plugs?  Could it have been too rich with fuel?

[rikubot]

Definitely. Machine work alone sucks. If I were to do new higher compression pistons, would I be able to get away w/o a line home or getting the crank turned, based on the low mileage on the rebuild?

I am somewhat handy but lack A LOT of knowledge. I think that if I was going to go as far as re-Ringing the de-nutted pistons, I'd prefer to just hold out and save up for new ones and do the more extensive surgery.

I found a .010 stamped on the bottom of my heads, guessing that means it's been shaved .010? I don't have my micrometer on me So I didn't get a chance to measure the valves. I do have the paperwork for the rebuild around here somewhere.

[rikubot]

Pics of the plugs?  Could it have been too rich with fuel?

I'd have to do some digging but I may have some. If it was running too rich, wouldn't each cylinder have an equal amount of sludge? Although there is a very high likelihood that it was running too rich as I tuned the carb myself.

[Challenger340]

Definitely. Machine work alone sucks. If I were to do new higher compression pistons, would I be able to get away w/o a line home or getting the crank turned, based on the low mileage on the rebuild?

I am somewhat handy but lack A LOT of knowledge. I think that if I was going to go as far as re-Ringing the de-nutted pistons, I'd prefer to just hold out and save up for new ones and do the more extensive surgery.

I found a .010 stamped on the bottom of my heads, guessing that means it's been shaved .010? I don't have my micrometer on me So I didn't get a chance to measure the valves. I do have the paperwork for the rebuild around here somewhere.

The Piston swap is probably a non starter, given whatever wear is in the cylinders, however minimal, will be concentrated at the point of highest ring travel by the current/lower Pistons in the Cylinders,
meaning that,
invariably with any newer/higher pistons, the top ring at the very least would have to travel over whatever even minimal "ridge" is there at the top of the cylinder currently.

Also then factor in that any real Piston/pin combo would be much lighter affecting Engine balance, except maybe the L2355's which are quite heavy, sometimes even moreso than the factory Crank is balanced for the other way.

I would re-iterate IMO ?
you may be best to leave well enough alone for now until budgets present sufficiently to do things right ?
if it we me.....
I would address a re-ring/chicken ball Hone job leaving the Crank in place, using strictly cast Piston rings(more forgiving)
and if budget allows?
a Comp Cams 268H Cam & Lifters, then bolt the Heads back on and call it a day.

[BSB67]

I'd have to do some digging but I may have some. If it was running too rich, wouldn't each cylinder have an equal amount of sludge? Although there is a very high likelihood that it was running too rich as I tuned the carb myself.

Oil  - Leaking intake, Bad valve guides, Bad valve seals, un-baffled PVC.  I've seen these frequently and more often than rings.

Fuel - One bbl on the carb out of wack for several possible reasons would cause 2 - 4 cylinders to be rich, leaking intake or other vacuum leak will cause a lean miss and blacken selected cylinders,  ignition miss, too fat of on carb bbl.

[rikubot]

@340, thank you for the info. I decided I'm going to bolt the head back on just to keep everything together for now. I've got a long time before the body will be finished and painted, so I'm going to tuck it away for now. If I do anything to it, I will most likely avoid doing the bare minimum. I might talk to the local builder and see about a decent 400 hp-ish build and if it's not too unreasonable start buying a part here and there. I appreciate the direction 

@BSB67, chances are I could check off most of these. Ive always had trouble with my carb and would not be surprised if I'm mistaking the sludge for oil when it could easily be fuel.

[BSB67]

@340, thank you for the info. I decided I'm going to bolt the head back on just to keep everything together for now. I've got a long time before the body will be finished and painted, so I'm going to tuck it away for now. If I do anything to it, I will most likely avoid doing the bare minimum. I might talk to the local builder and see about a decent 400 hp-ish build and if it's not too unreasonable start buying a part here and there. I appreciate the direction 

@BSB67, chances are I could check off most of these. Ive always had trouble with my carb and would not be surprised if I'm mistaking the sludge for oil when it could easily be fuel.

Its good to have a plan.  Hopefully your take away from all of this is this:  1) You can reasonably achieve an honest 375 hp goal without rebuilding the motor, albeit, not the perfect motor, for probably $3,000, or 2) you can rebuild your 440 with all the right stuff for $8,000+.

Good luck