Latest thoughts on Zinc and additives

[Kevin68N71]

Curious what the group thinks of adding zinc to oil or oil with zinc already in it, vs. just what is on the shelf in plain old oil.  Obviously zinc compounds have been removed over the years, but the question is does it really matter.

My Mopars have been driven very little the past several years, and I had never used zinc in them.  The only time I have used it at all was rebuilding my Fiat 128SL engine and my engine guy strongly recommended it.

The problem with additives, and oil in general, is everyone has different opinions.  First it was adding octane boosters, even if you didn't hear pinging,  because IT COULD BE DAMAGING YOUR ENGINE?  Then the clamor for that seemed to die down.  Then it was to make sure that you added a lead replacement or you will ruin your valves.  I followed that practice for years.  (although I did have one bozo, the claimed AMC AMX expert tell me that unless you were using REAL lead--and only he had access to the good stuff--it was just a matter of time before your motor "blew up").

Now since I am starting to actually drive my Mopars again, I am looking at the zinc additives.  Supposedly your lifters and cam lobes can really take a beating without it.  I don't race my cars and I don't beat them to death, so maybe I have just been lucky when I was driving them before.

Thoughts on all this?

[Todd Wilson]

I wouldn't worry about it. With todays oils and the technology put into them we have the best oil and protection ever available to the automobile engine. I am sure todays oils are protecting way better then some 40-50 year old oils that contained zinc. If your engines been rebuilt in the last 30 years its probably not gonna care either........


Todd

[John_Kunkel]

Today's oils, even diesel, are formulated for use with catalytic converters that don't like anti-wear additives like ZDDP and phosphorous. Take that into consideration when choosing.

[4cruzin]

Depends if you are running a flat tappet cam or not . . . those that are need the additives.   

[Kevin68N71]

4Crusin---Both mine are stock.  I rebuilt the Charger 383 myself in 1981!  New cam and lifters but just stock flat ones.  The 440 in my Super Bee I have never opened, guessing it is stock too.....

[RallyeMike]

It's science, not opinion. If you run a flat tap cam and don't use the right oil or additives you will have excessive wear. The aggressiveness of your cam, spring pressure, and how you use the car will factor how long you have before you have failure of cam/lifters/fuel pump push rod.

[TexasStroker]

I would definitely run it...talk to enough people and you'll probably find a few that wiped lobes.  It isn't much more expensive and will save you cash in the long run.

[Kevin68N71]

"It's science, not opinion."

That's what they said about octane boosters. 

That said, I might try Comp Cam's swill and see how it works.

[Kern Dog]

I started using the Comp Cams supplement along with EDM solid lifters and have not had a cam failure in years. I had 2 Comp Cams go bad in 2006/2007 and a MP small block 292/508 in 2008. It sucks!

[5hunert]

"It's science, not opinion."

That's what they said about octane boosters. 

That said, I might try Comp Cam's swill and see how it works.

I'm not sure if you asked the above experienced folks for advice, or just an opinion you could shoot down with an analogy. It appears several of the responses came from folks who have lost money and time from wiped cams.

Lets add some science.  Build an engine with a flat tappet engine, don't add zinc additive and let us all know how it goes.

Case closed.

[69wannabe]

It will go badly, wiped a cam out in 03 very quickly. I run the valvoline VR 1 oil in my charger with no cam and lifter issues and it has been built since 2012. You can do the additive which I use in my old 4.0 Jeep engines since they are all flat tappet engines too. I usually get the 10 pack of ZDDPlus from amazon.....

[sccachallenger]

One of the gurus, forgot which one.
His opinion, if using an engine built and broken in "back in the day" then don't worry about it.
Now a new flat tappet cam, or new to your block, then definitely use it.

I'd price cam, lifters, gaskets, etc. then decide what my time is worth.
And think of it this way, few of us use these cars as daily drivers.
I mean, how many oil changes in a year?
I think the peace of mind is worth the $$$$

[Kevin68N71]

Shunert---sure not shooting down anyone's advice, if you read my reply, I am going to go this route and use it.  Not very expensive, and I can err on the side of protection.

That said, whenever anyone says something is settled science, I want to know a little more.  And as I said, the octane booster bit was settle science several years back, and we see how that turned out....

[Y1CHARGER]

Shunert---sure not shooting down anyone's advice, if you read my reply, I am going to go this route and use it.  Not very expensive, and I can err on the side of protection.

That said, whenever anyone says something is settled science, I want to know a little more.  And as I said, the octane booster bit was settle science several years back, and we see how that turned out....

Why are you talking about octane boosters, they have nothing to do with oil or what you asked.  Check out this site:

https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/forum_summary

[BSB67]

To the OP's point, I know that I'm not convinced that today's low zinc oil is the problem with flat tappet cam failures.  But it is likely a contributing factor.  

Therefore, at the end of the day, there is no good reason to not take advantage of higher zinc and phos. oils or additives for your flat tappet cammed motors, simply for the added insurance.  And also stay away from faster rate cams.  JMO.

[Kern Dog]

I'd think that any time of the day...or even the night, that oil was a leading cause.

[bull]

I'll ask my brother what he thinks after flattening the cam in his new Corvette engine rebuild using conventional oil during break-in. Wait, I already did. He's not happy about it.

[BSB67]

I'd think that any time of the day...or even the night, that oil was a leading cause.

You act like cam failures are new.  They failed in the 70s, 80s and 90s with regularity.  Heck, Chevrolet had a bunch of ft cams go south.  That was before fast rate cams, and higher valve spring pressures.  Also, show me something that is as inexpensive as a cam and lifters are today that is made as good as they were 25 years ago.  I promise you that the metallurgical, machining and overall QA/QC of these inexpensive, low volume cams and lifters for 40 year old motors is not what it was. 

[Kern Dog]

I was teasing you.
You wrote.."At the end of the day"....
That phrase is being used a LOT lately. My response was in jest, as if the approaching sundown has any bearing on oil quality.
Regardless...
Dwayne Porter told me once....The rise in cam and lifter failures was a situation where several factors came into play in a short time. Higher lift cams. Chinesium parts, reduction of zinc in oil. etc.

[stripedelete]

If I use valvoline VR1, can I move on to the next thing I have to worry about?

[BSB67]

I was teasing you.
You wrote.."At the end of the day"....
That phrase is being used a LOT lately. My response was in jest, as if the approaching sundown has any bearing on oil quality.
Regardless...
Dwayne Porter told me once....The rise in cam and lifter failures was a situation where several factors came into play in a short time. Higher lift cams. Chinesium parts, reduction of zinc in oil. etc.

Oooops - a little slow on the uptake.

[Paul G]

There are many choices in old school flat tappet cam engine oils with zinc and phos additives. Few if any will be on the shelf at your local auto parts store. To get the viscosity you want in a price point you want it is advantageous to order online. I have been using this from Summit Racing, 10w30 for $7.99 qt. You have many choices.

[billssuperbird]

I use Rotella 20/50

[c00nhunterjoe]

Cam wear due to the removal of zddp is fact. It is not just in the 50 year old hot rod engines with performance cams. It is industry wide and in modern cars. 4.0's in jeeps seizing lifters in the bores, ls's with oil pump and rocker failures, gm 3.6s wiping bearings and having the cams eat through the heads.... i see it daily. I read the tsb's from the manufactures. The government doesnt care. Zddp is important in all engines, not just for flat tappet cams.

[NS 68 R/T]

I use Rotella 20/50

Just a heads up, I'm pretty sure they took the zinc out of that.