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Latest thoughts on Zinc and additives

Started by Kevin68N71, April 18, 2019, 11:39:40 AM

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Kevin68N71

Curious what the group thinks of adding zinc to oil or oil with zinc already in it, vs. just what is on the shelf in plain old oil.  Obviously zinc compounds have been removed over the years, but the question is does it really matter.

My Mopars have been driven very little the past several years, and I had never used zinc in them.  The only time I have used it at all was rebuilding my Fiat 128SL engine and my engine guy strongly recommended it.

The problem with additives, and oil in general, is everyone has different opinions.  First it was adding octane boosters, even if you didn't hear pinging,  because IT COULD BE DAMAGING YOUR ENGINE????  Then the clamor for that seemed to die down.  Then it was to make sure that you added a lead replacement or you will ruin your valves.  I followed that practice for years.  (although I did have one bozo, the claimed AMC AMX expert tell me that unless you were using REAL lead--and only he had access to the good stuff--it was just a matter of time before your motor "blew up").

Now since I am starting to actually drive my Mopars again, I am looking at the zinc additives.  Supposedly your lifters and cam lobes can really take a beating without it.  I don't race my cars and I don't beat them to death, so maybe I have just been lucky when I was driving them before.

Thoughts on all this?
Do I have the last, operational Popcar Spacemobile?

Todd Wilson

I wouldn't worry about it. With todays oils and the technology put into them we have the best oil and protection ever available to the automobile engine. I am sure todays oils are protecting way better then some 40-50 year old oils that contained zinc. If your engines been rebuilt in the last 30 years its probably not gonna care either........


Todd


John_Kunkel

Today's oils, even diesel, are formulated for use with catalytic converters that don't like anti-wear additives like ZDDP and phosphorous. Take that into consideration when choosing.
Pardon me but my karma just ran over your dogma.

4cruzin

Depends if you are running a flat tappet cam or not . . . those that are need the additives.   :eek2:
Tomorrow is promised to NOBODY . . . .

Kevin68N71

4Crusin---Both mine are stock.  I rebuilt the Charger 383 myself in 1981!  New cam and lifters but just stock flat ones.  The 440 in my Super Bee I have never opened, guessing it is stock too.....
Do I have the last, operational Popcar Spacemobile?

RallyeMike

It's science, not opinion. If you run a flat tap cam and don't use the right oil or additives you will have excessive wear. The aggressiveness of your cam, spring pressure, and how you use the car will factor how long you have before you have failure of cam/lifters/fuel pump push rod.

1969 Charger 500 #232008
1972 Charger, Grand Sport #41
1973 Charger "T/A"

Drive as fast as you want to on a public road! Click here for info: http://www.sscc.us/

TexasStroker

I would definitely run it...talk to enough people and you'll probably find a few that wiped lobes.  It isn't much more expensive and will save you cash in the long run.
Founder, Amarillo Area Mopars
www.amarilloareamopars.com
Founder, Lone Star Mopars
www.lonestarmopars.com
Will set-up a regional Charger meet
Contact me for info!

Kevin68N71

"It's science, not opinion."

That's what they said about octane boosters. 

That said, I might try Comp Cam's swill and see how it works.
Do I have the last, operational Popcar Spacemobile?

Kern Dog

I started using the Comp Cams supplement along with EDM solid lifters and have not had a cam failure in years. I had 2 Comp Cams go bad in 2006/2007 and a MP small block 292/508 in 2008. It sucks!

5hunert

Quote from: Kevin68N71 on April 19, 2019, 10:08:02 AM
"It's science, not opinion."

That's what they said about octane boosters. 

That said, I might try Comp Cam's swill and see how it works.

I'm not sure if you asked the above experienced folks for advice, or just an opinion you could shoot down with an analogy. It appears several of the responses came from folks who have lost money and time from wiped cams.

Lets add some science.  Build an engine with a flat tappet engine, don't add zinc additive and let us all know how it goes.

Case closed.

69wannabe

It will go badly, wiped a cam out in 03 very quickly. I run the valvoline VR 1 oil in my charger with no cam and lifter issues and it has been built since 2012. You can do the additive which I use in my old 4.0 Jeep engines since they are all flat tappet engines too. I usually get the 10 pack of ZDDPlus from amazon.....

sccachallenger

One of the gurus, forgot which one.
His opinion, if using an engine built and broken in "back in the day" then don't worry about it.
Now a new flat tappet cam, or new to your block, then definitely use it.

I'd price cam, lifters, gaskets, etc. then decide what my time is worth.
And think of it this way, few of us use these cars as daily drivers.
I mean, how many oil changes in a year?
I think the peace of mind is worth the $$$$

Kevin68N71

Shunert---sure not shooting down anyone's advice, if you read my reply, I am going to go this route and use it.  Not very expensive, and I can err on the side of protection.

That said, whenever anyone says something is settled science, I want to know a little more.  And as I said, the octane booster bit was settle science several years back, and we see how that turned out....
Do I have the last, operational Popcar Spacemobile?

Y1CHARGER

Quote from: Kevin68N71 on April 19, 2019, 11:21:48 PM
Shunert---sure not shooting down anyone's advice, if you read my reply, I am going to go this route and use it.  Not very expensive, and I can err on the side of protection.

That said, whenever anyone says something is settled science, I want to know a little more.  And as I said, the octane booster bit was settle science several years back, and we see how that turned out....

Why are you talking about octane boosters, they have nothing to do with oil or what you asked.  Check out this site:

https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/forum_summary


BSB67

To the OP's point, I know that I'm not convinced that today's low zinc oil is the problem with flat tappet cam failures.  But it is likely a contributing factor.  

Therefore, at the end of the day, there is no good reason to not take advantage of higher zinc and phos. oils or additives for your flat tappet cammed motors, simply for the added insurance.  And also stay away from faster rate cams.  JMO.

500" NA, Eddy head, pump gas, exhaust manifold with 2 1/2 exhaust with tailpipes
4150 lbs with driver, 3.23 gear, stock converter
11.68 @ 120.2 mph

Kern Dog

I'd think that any time of the day...or even the night, that oil was a leading cause.

bull

I'll ask my brother what he thinks after flattening the cam in his new Corvette engine rebuild using conventional oil during break-in. Wait, I already did. He's not happy about it.

BSB67

Quote from: Kern Dog on April 21, 2019, 03:12:33 PM
I'd think that any time of the day...or even the night, that oil was a leading cause.

You act like cam failures are new.  They failed in the 70s, 80s and 90s with regularity.  Heck, Chevrolet had a bunch of ft cams go south.  That was before fast rate cams, and higher valve spring pressures.  Also, show me something that is as inexpensive as a cam and lifters are today that is made as good as they were 25 years ago.  I promise you that the metallurgical, machining and overall QA/QC of these inexpensive, low volume cams and lifters for 40 year old motors is not what it was. 

500" NA, Eddy head, pump gas, exhaust manifold with 2 1/2 exhaust with tailpipes
4150 lbs with driver, 3.23 gear, stock converter
11.68 @ 120.2 mph

Kern Dog

I was teasing you.
You wrote.."At the end of the day"....
That phrase is being used a LOT lately. My response was in jest, as if the approaching sundown has any bearing on oil quality.
Regardless...
Dwayne Porter told me once....The rise in cam and lifter failures was a situation where several factors came into play in a short time. Higher lift cams. Chinesium parts, reduction of zinc in oil. etc.

stripedelete

If I use valvoline VR1, can I move on to the next thing I have to worry about?

BSB67

Quote from: Kern Dog on April 21, 2019, 08:57:32 PM
I was teasing you.
You wrote.."At the end of the day"....
That phrase is being used a LOT lately. My response was in jest, as if the approaching sundown has any bearing on oil quality.
Regardless...
Dwayne Porter told me once....The rise in cam and lifter failures was a situation where several factors came into play in a short time. Higher lift cams. Chinesium parts, reduction of zinc in oil. etc.

Oooops - a little slow on the uptake.

500" NA, Eddy head, pump gas, exhaust manifold with 2 1/2 exhaust with tailpipes
4150 lbs with driver, 3.23 gear, stock converter
11.68 @ 120.2 mph

Paul G

There are many choices in old school flat tappet cam engine oils with zinc and phos additives. Few if any will be on the shelf at your local auto parts store. To get the viscosity you want in a price point you want it is advantageous to order online. I have been using this from Summit Racing, 10w30 for $7.99 qt. You have many choices.


1972 Charger Topper Special, 360ci, 46RH OD trans, 8 3/4 sure grip with 3.91 gear, 14.93@92 mph.
1973 Charger Rallye, 4 speed, muscle rat. Whatever engine right now?

Mopars Unlimited of Arizona

http://www.moparsaz.com/#

billssuperbird


c00nhunterjoe

Cam wear due to the removal of zddp is fact. It is not just in the 50 year old hot rod engines with performance cams. It is industry wide and in modern cars. 4.0's in jeeps seizing lifters in the bores, ls's with oil pump and rocker failures, gm 3.6s wiping bearings and having the cams eat through the heads.... i see it daily. I read the tsb's from the manufactures. The government doesnt care. Zddp is important in all engines, not just for flat tappet cams.

NS 68 R/T

Quote from: billssuperbird on April 23, 2019, 05:59:32 AM
I use Rotella 20/50
Just a heads up, I'm pretty sure they took the zinc out of that.

bakerhillpins

Quote from: NS 68 R/T on April 28, 2019, 08:57:48 PM
Quote from: billssuperbird on April 23, 2019, 05:59:32 AM
I use Rotella 20/50
Just a heads up, I'm pretty sure they took the zinc out of that.

For what it's worth this is a good oil read, albeit long: https://www.allpar.com/old/oils.php

At the end it talks about reading the API Service Symbol/Donut which is useful.
One great wife (Life is good)
14 RAM 1500 5.7 Hemi Crew Cab (crap hauler)
69 Dodge Charger R/T, Q5, C6X, V1X, V88  (Life is WAY better)
96' VFR750 (Sweet)
Capt. Lyme Vol. Fire

"Inspiration is for amateurs - the rest of us just show up and get to work." -Chuck Close
"The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits." -Albert Einstein
Go that way, really fast. If something gets in your way, turn.
Science flies you to the moon, Religion flies you into buildings.

b5blue

  Interesting read, tempered with knowing the red flagged topic here saved my cam and lifters.  :2thumbs:

challenger70

Quote from: stripedelete on April 21, 2019, 09:13:34 PM
If I use valvoline VR1, can I move on to the next thing I have to worry about?

I am debating about running this next, I hear good things. 
'68 383 A833 QQ1 Charger
'70  440 727 FY1 Challenger

Aero426

Just buy the correct oil.    (Diesel oil is not the correct oil).

There are now several off the shelf oils with elevated levels of ZDDP that will work great.

Valvoline VR-1 20W50 in the silver bottle (conventional)
Mobil 1 15W-50 
Mobil 1 4T bike oil.    (this is the 1990's NASCAR Mobil 1 formula)
Driven Hot Rod oil
Penn Grade 1 (formerly known as Brad Penn)
AmsOil Z-rod



moparstuart

Quote from: Aero426 on April 30, 2019, 09:47:00 AM
Just buy the correct oil.    (Diesel oil is not the correct oil).

There are now several off the shelf oils with elevated levels of ZDDP that will work great.

Valvoline VR-1 20W50 in the silver bottle (conventional)
Mobil 1 15W-50 
Mobil 1 4T bike oil.    (this is the 1990's NASCAR Mobil 1 formula)
Driven Hot Rod oil
Penn Grade 1 (formerly known as Brad Penn)
AmsOil Z-rod



My Favorite is  https://www.amazon.com/Kendall-527-7138-Performance-20W-50-Titanium/dp/B003TQ1UA6      i also use the Valvoline 20 /50  racing   in a pinch 
GO SELL CRAZY SOMEWHERE ELSE WE ARE ALL STOCKED UP HERE

Aero426

Quote from: moparstuart on April 30, 2019, 09:51:23 AM
Quote from: Aero426 on April 30, 2019, 09:47:00 AM
Just buy the correct oil.    (Diesel oil is not the correct oil).

There are now several off the shelf oils with elevated levels of ZDDP that will work great.

Valvoline VR-1 20W50 in the silver bottle (conventional)
Mobil 1 15W-50 
Mobil 1 4T bike oil.    (this is the 1990's NASCAR Mobil 1 formula)
Driven Hot Rod oil
Penn Grade 1 (formerly known as Brad Penn)
AmsOil Z-rod



My Favorite is  https://www.amazon.com/Kendall-527-7138-Performance-20W-50-Titanium/dp/B003TQ1UA6      i also use the Valvoline 20 /50  racing   in a pinch 

As a side point, the Valvoline VR-1 racing oil in the silver bottle has a street detergent package.   The black bottle version doesn't.   

Aero426

Quote from: NS 68 R/T on April 28, 2019, 08:57:48 PM
Quote from: billssuperbird on April 23, 2019, 05:59:32 AM
I use Rotella 20/50
Just a heads up, I'm pretty sure they took the zinc out of that.

It's more than that.   Diesel oils traditionally did have higher levels of ZDDP.   But they also have higher levels of detergents, which effectively tries to clean off the zinc.     That is the part that people miss when talking about using diesel oils.    

I know guys who are long term happy users of Rotella, etc because of the low cost.     Engine wear can happen over long periods of time.    Not everyone has an engine with crazy valve spring pressures either, so maybe you get by.   

darbgnik

Quote from: Aero426 on April 30, 2019, 10:03:45 AM


It's more than that.   Diesel oils traditionally did have higher levels of ZDDP.   But they also have higher levels of detergents, which effectively tries to clean off the zinc.     That is the part that people miss when talking about using diesel oils.    



Didn't know that part.....
Brad

1970 Charger 500. Born a 318, AC, console auto, now 440/727
Build thread:  http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,127291.0.html

John_Kunkel

Quote from: bakerhillpins on April 30, 2019, 07:53:52 AM


For what it's worth this is a good oil read, albeit long: https://www.allpar.com/old/oils.php

At the end it talks about reading the API Service Symbol/Donut which is useful.

Look at the date of that article, 2006.
Pardon me but my karma just ran over your dogma.

Challenger340

Surprising what I see here at the Shop ? and the "phonecalls" we get ?
and,
even more surprising on this thread NO mention of the importance of KNOWING/CHECKING your Valve Spring Installed Pressures and Rates when using F.T. Cams ?

just saying here.....
everyone seems to know the importance of Zinc ZDDP, Phosphorous/Molybdenum additives in Oil for F.T. Cam break-in
yet,
nobody "seems" to actually recognize the importance ? in having their V/Spring pressures & rates checked for F.T. Cams beyond trusting a Book that says "use this Spring" and have some dork install for them ?

ASK whomever is checking/installing your V/Springs for a F.T. Cam:
1.) WHAT is the V/Spring Seat pressure at the installed height on my Heads ?
2.) What will the "over the Nose" V/Spring pressure be ?
3.) Did you check my V/Springs for  Rate ?(NOT look on the Box)

If you get blank stares to any of the above ? or the answer "within specs" ?   you may have a problem with your F.T. Cam no matter what Oil or additive you use !
Only wimps wear Bowties !

justcruisin

I have been using Oil Extreme 5w30 in a 448 with a fast rate FT hyd cam, minimal zinc but it uses a calcium high pressure additive, no problems to date.

440

I've been using Royal Purple in all my performance F.T. cars since it hit the domestic market and have never had a problem, yes it's expensive but still cheaper than an engine rebuild.

b5blue

Quote from: Challenger340 on May 03, 2019, 10:29:26 AM
Surprising what I see here at the Shop ? and the "phonecalls" we get ?
and,
even more surprising on this thread NO mention of the importance of KNOWING/CHECKING your Valve Spring Installed Pressures and Rates when using F.T. Cams ?

just saying here.....
everyone seems to know the importance of Zinc ZDDP, Phosphorous/Molybdenum additives in Oil for F.T. Cam break-in
yet,
nobody "seems" to actually recognize the importance ? in having their V/Spring pressures & rates checked for F.T. Cams beyond trusting a Book that says "use this Spring" and have some dork install for them ?

ASK whomever is checking/installing your V/Springs for a F.T. Cam:
1.) WHAT is the V/Spring Seat pressure at the installed height on my Heads ?
2.) What will the "over the Nose" V/Spring pressure be ?
3.) Did you check my V/Springs for  Rate ?(NOT look on the Box)

If you get blank stares to any of the above ? or the answer "within specs" ?   you may have a problem with your F.T. Cam no matter what Oil or additive you use !
Very well put!  :2thumbs:

c00nhunterjoe

Quote from: Challenger340 on May 03, 2019, 10:29:26 AM
Surprising what I see here at the Shop ? and the "phonecalls" we get ?
and,
even more surprising on this thread NO mention of the importance of KNOWING/CHECKING your Valve Spring Installed Pressures and Rates when using F.T. Cams ?

just saying here.....
everyone seems to know the importance of Zinc ZDDP, Phosphorous/Molybdenum additives in Oil for F.T. Cam break-in
yet,
nobody "seems" to actually recognize the importance ? in having their V/Spring pressures & rates checked for F.T. Cams beyond trusting a Book that says "use this Spring" and have some dork install for them ?

ASK whomever is checking/installing your V/Springs for a F.T. Cam:
1.) WHAT is the V/Spring Seat pressure at the installed height on my Heads ?
2.) What will the "over the Nose" V/Spring pressure be ?
3.) Did you check my V/Springs for  Rate ?(NOT look on the Box)

If you get blank stares to any of the above ? or the answer "within specs" ?   you may have a problem with your F.T. Cam no matter what Oil or additive you use !

1: 230 lbs
2: 680 lbs
3: 650/"
Solid roller, street driven, lots of zddp, spray bar oiling.

flyinlow

I switched to Mobil 1 0w -40 European formula (1000ppm zinc) very high film strength ,wear rating, and thermal breakdown ratings. Mild hydraulic flat tappet 440. Had been using Mobil 1 15w-50, higher zinc , poor wear rating. 4-5K miles a year. Change oil once a year. Had trust bearing issue last year.  Crank looked ok so changed to large flange trust bearing, 1976 block. Not sure if 15w -50 was any of the problem (way too thick oil) installed better Torque converter at the same time and switched to 0w-40. Let the games begin.

Use Valvoline 10w-30 synthetic racing in my sons 440 Charger. He drives less, so the short drain intervals are not a problem. 1-2K miles a year.

Using results from 540rat tests on oil.

c00nhunterjoe

I run lucas 20w50 in mine. The weight is dependent on how you built it and what you are doing with it.

Back N Black

I'm using Rotella 15-40 with the GM additive, 20,000 km no problems so far but the oil pressure seems a little high, 80 psi cold and 50 psi warm. Is that normal or should I go with a different grade oil? I'm getting a little mist on the air filter after a 60 km drive.

cdr

LINK TO MY STORY http://www.onallcylinders.com/2015/11/16/ride-shares-charlie-keel-battles-cancer-ms-to-build-brilliant-1968-dodge-charger/  
                                                                                           
68 Charger 512 cid,9.7to1,Hilborn EFI,Home ported 440 source heads,small hyd roller cam,COLD A/C ,,a518 trans,Dana 60 ,4.10 gear,10.93 et,4100lbs on street tires full exhaust daily driver
Charger55 by Charlie Keel, on Flickr

bakerhillpins

Quote from: John_Kunkel on April 30, 2019, 02:44:11 PM
Quote from: bakerhillpins on April 30, 2019, 07:53:52 AM


For what it's worth this is a good oil read, albeit long: https://www.allpar.com/old/oils.php

At the end it talks about reading the API Service Symbol/Donut which is useful.

Look at the date of that article, 2006.

The date of the article alone dosen't invalidate the article or otherwise render the information in it incorrect. If you have issues with or possibly new information since the time of publishing then by all means bring that forward. I'd like to hear what you have to say.



One great wife (Life is good)
14 RAM 1500 5.7 Hemi Crew Cab (crap hauler)
69 Dodge Charger R/T, Q5, C6X, V1X, V88  (Life is WAY better)
96' VFR750 (Sweet)
Capt. Lyme Vol. Fire

"Inspiration is for amateurs - the rest of us just show up and get to work." -Chuck Close
"The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits." -Albert Einstein
Go that way, really fast. If something gets in your way, turn.
Science flies you to the moon, Religion flies you into buildings.

c00nhunterjoe

They also said ulsd fuel wont affect the older diesels.... and ethanol fuel wont effect carburetors...

bakerhillpins

Quote from: c00nhunterjoe on May 29, 2019, 06:19:00 AM
They also said ulsd fuel wont affect the older diesels.... and ethanol fuel wont effect carburetors...

Who is they? and where did they say that?  I'm not trying to be a smart ass, I'm not.  :2thumbs: I'd really like to know.

Most of the articles I read at the time cited several upgrades/modifications necessary to handle the fuel blend change with respect to components not designed for the mix or the equipment just plainly said don't use a specific blend. So logically, if one stripped out the details of the discussion and just ran with the generalized conclusion then yea, you would get into trouble.

One great wife (Life is good)
14 RAM 1500 5.7 Hemi Crew Cab (crap hauler)
69 Dodge Charger R/T, Q5, C6X, V1X, V88  (Life is WAY better)
96' VFR750 (Sweet)
Capt. Lyme Vol. Fire

"Inspiration is for amateurs - the rest of us just show up and get to work." -Chuck Close
"The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits." -Albert Einstein
Go that way, really fast. If something gets in your way, turn.
Science flies you to the moon, Religion flies you into buildings.

John_Kunkel

Quote from: bakerhillpins on May 29, 2019, 05:56:50 AM
Quote from: John_Kunkel on April 30, 2019, 02:44:11 PM
Quote from: bakerhillpins on April 30, 2019, 07:53:52 AM


For what it's worth this is a good oil read, albeit long: https://www.allpar.com/old/oils.php

At the end it talks about reading the API Service Symbol/Donut which is useful.

Look at the date of that article, 2006.

The date of the article alone dosen't invalidate the article or otherwise render the information in it incorrect. If you have issues with or possibly new information since the time of publishing then by all means bring that forward. I'd like to hear what you have to say.

Since 2006, the introduction of catalytic converters on diesels might make the info out of date.
Pardon me but my karma just ran over your dogma.

c00nhunterjoe

Quote from: bakerhillpins on May 29, 2019, 08:14:44 AM
Quote from: c00nhunterjoe on May 29, 2019, 06:19:00 AM
They also said ulsd fuel wont affect the older diesels.... and ethanol fuel wont effect carburetors...

Who is they? and where did they say that?  I'm not trying to be a smart ass, I'm not.  :2thumbs: I'd really like to know.

Most of the articles I read at the time cited several upgrades/modifications necessary to handle the fuel blend change with respect to components not designed for the mix or the equipment just plainly said don't use a specific blend. So logically, if one stripped out the details of the discussion and just ran with the generalized conclusion then yea, you would get into trouble.



They is the government. And they put it on the gas pumps.

bakerhillpins

Quote from: John_Kunkel on May 30, 2019, 12:18:06 PM
Since 2006, the introduction of catalytic converters on diesels might make the info out of date.

Ah, yes. Good point. That didn't occur to me. I wonder if that's going to change the API service designation for the oil blends that support those changes.  Oh, and apologies, re-reading my post made me realize that I sounded snarky. Not the intent.  :2thumbs:

Quote from: c00nhunterjoe on May 30, 2019, 03:23:44 PM
They is the government. And they put it on the gas pumps.

It only says that it's required for 2007 or newer vehicles so I'm confused as to how that classifies as saying it's OK for older Diesels/carbs. Likewise, it only recommends it for small engines. I don't read that as saying it's a universal fuel option.   
One great wife (Life is good)
14 RAM 1500 5.7 Hemi Crew Cab (crap hauler)
69 Dodge Charger R/T, Q5, C6X, V1X, V88  (Life is WAY better)
96' VFR750 (Sweet)
Capt. Lyme Vol. Fire

"Inspiration is for amateurs - the rest of us just show up and get to work." -Chuck Close
"The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits." -Albert Einstein
Go that way, really fast. If something gets in your way, turn.
Science flies you to the moon, Religion flies you into buildings.

c00nhunterjoe

Quote from: bakerhillpins on May 31, 2019, 05:57:42 AM
Quote from: John_Kunkel on May 30, 2019, 12:18:06 PM
Since 2006, the introduction of catalytic converters on diesels might make the info out of date.

Ah, yes. Good point. That didn't occur to me. I wonder if that's going to change the API service designation for the oil blends that support those changes.  Oh, and apologies, re-reading my post made me realize that I sounded snarky. Not the intent.  :2thumbs:

Quote from: c00nhunterjoe on May 30, 2019, 03:23:44 PM
They is the government. And they put it on the gas pumps.

It only says that it's required for 2007 or newer vehicles so I'm confused as to how that classifies as saying it's OK for older Diesels/carbs. Likewise, it only recommends it for small engines. I don't read that as saying it's a universal fuel option.   


Sign's 2nd sentence clearly state "reccomended for all diesel engines"

c00nhunterjoe


bakerhillpins

Quote from: c00nhunterjoe on May 31, 2019, 09:51:59 AM
Sign's 2nd sentence clearly state "reccomended for all diesel engines"

Quoterecommended - advised or suggested as good or suitable.

There's nothing in that statement that states that it is the correct fuel for every application/engine.  It's simply a recommendation, it's up to the user to validate correct application.  In fact your probably never going to see that because there is always an exception.

Quote from: c00nhunterjoe on May 31, 2019, 09:55:37 AM
https://www.epa.gov/diesel-fuel-standards/diesel-fuel-standards-and-rulemakings

Or you can read it on the governments own website. Same about gasoline.

I've read through several pages of the on road information. Unless I'm missing something that you can point me to I don't see any text that specifically states that these fuels are, or are not, backwards compatible with ALL diesel engines. It's lots of information on the supported levels of sulfur, emissions, phase in years, and year of required support by vehicle MFGs. I don't see anything beyond that.

One great wife (Life is good)
14 RAM 1500 5.7 Hemi Crew Cab (crap hauler)
69 Dodge Charger R/T, Q5, C6X, V1X, V88  (Life is WAY better)
96' VFR750 (Sweet)
Capt. Lyme Vol. Fire

"Inspiration is for amateurs - the rest of us just show up and get to work." -Chuck Close
"The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits." -Albert Einstein
Go that way, really fast. If something gets in your way, turn.
Science flies you to the moon, Religion flies you into buildings.

John_Kunkel

The big problem with the low-sulfur fuel in older engines is the fuel system O rings, the older O rings would shrink and were replaced by a different material that also shrank with age...the latest O ring material seems top be holding up.
Pardon me but my karma just ran over your dogma.