69 Charger R/T SE R6 V1W CRX V8W V21 & M51 Sunroof XS29L9B366061

[70 sublime]

HAS ANYBODY TOLD SELLER HE'S SELLING A FAKE?

I asked how long he has owned the car and mentioned the tag was for sale on ebay
Left a link to this thread

Never got a reply

[Alaskan_TA]

Pretty sure he knows.

Read the carefully worded ad description.  

[hemi-hampton]

Pretty sure he knows.

Read the carefully worded ad description.  

Yeah, I got that same impression. I asked him about it, no reply yet or maybe never. He might just try to play dumb.

[Dano 1]

Just trying to wrap my head around this deal for my own, and maybe other's, clarification.

The VIN tag for XS29L9B366061 only states the car is a Charger with a 440 and a given sequence number. If you purchased ONLY the primary VIN tag how would you know it was anything special? This car is an R/T SE, 440, sunroof car which you would only be able to determine from the fender tag or build sheet so why would you start with the primary VIN tag for XS29L9B366061? You would have to already have the car, match the VIN tag to the body, get a repop fender tag then track down the numbers matching engine/trans. Unless that VIN was tied to the rare fender tag/build sheet at some point in its life and someone knew that XS29L9B366061 was such a race combination why would it make any sense to VIN swap/body swap/clone this car based on the VIN alone?

I don't know the circumstances around the 2008 VIN auction but IF it was stated what car/option package this VIN went to then it could make sense to body swap but otherwise you're just guessing. What am I missing?

What you talking about tracking down original #'s matching engine & trans, after he's gone this far to fake you don't track those down, you just stamp your own #'s onto them. LEON.

Fair point. The guy lists the restoration shop's number, maybe they were totally clueless but some of this stuff would have to have been done while the car was in-process in order for it to look right.

I'm still curious how they went from a generic VIN for a Charger R/T 440 to an R/T SE sunroof car, why not just go all in and make it a 4-speed etc. and wouldn't a sunroof be pretty damn hard to put in after the fact? Maybe they had a sunroof shell with a bad or missing VIN and it magically became an R/T SE 1 of 23. 

[chargervert]

The long heard ,believed production number of 69 Charger R/T SE sunroof cars was 29. That number came to be the accepted number, but it was determined by doing simple math,by the presumed percentage of believed sunroof cars produced, then that number was subtracted from the total production number of 69 Charger R/T SE cars built.  I believe that the real production number of cars with the sunroof option is probably close to double the presumed 29 number based on how many I have personally seen. Hopefully the 29 number will be debunked once the sunroof registry proves there are more than 29.

[Mytur Binsdirti]

Knowing that the numbers were (most likely) transferred to another car, the wording in his ad sounds suspicious. Nowhere does he say this car.


1969 Dodge Charger R/T SE factory sunroof in R6 Red. The car has had a full restoration on a solid rust free California car.
The car left the factory with:
power steering
power disc brakes
power windows
am/fm radio
buddy seat
Leather bucket seats
3 speed wiper
Air Conditioning
Automatic Transmission
White R/T stripe
White vinyl top
Performance Hood treatment V21
RARE Sunroof M51 option

The car underwent a complete restoration on a super solid rust free California car from Southern California. Factory color is R6 red. This is 1 of 23 R/T SE car made in 1969. ASC ( America Sunroof Corporation) was where the cars were sent to from the factory. Like the Daytona and Superbird at Creative Industries. They were sublet there. The car is numbers matched with 440 and auto transmission. It's a stunning Charger as it was when born in 1969. I'm reluctant selling it but not desperate so please be respectful. The car is sold as is where is. The car is 50 years old but has a second chance at life with maybe you? Question feel free to call the restoration shop. 8oo 6o7 4684
76o 898 8434 CP
Thanks for your time and happy bidding. Good Luck!

[kent]

Ok so real nice car by the looks of the pictures. Yes?? So could this car be sold and registered legally?? Surly it's worth 30-to 50 G's for such a lovely tribute car?

I'm restoring my car for me not the value of it. If I was I'm way over budget.

I mean what's it worth as a clone??

Edit... at this time it's up to $61,000.  If he had stated it was a clone would we be having this discussion?

[Homerr]

Clone/tribute is different than swapping VINs.

[sdweatherman]

The long heard ,believed production number of 69 Charger R/T SE sunroof cars was 29. That number came to be the accepted number, but it was determined by doing simple math,by the presumed percentage of believed sunroof cars produced, then that number was subtracted from the total production number of 69 Charger R/T SE cars built.  I believe that the real production number of cars with the sunroof option is probably close to double the presumed 29 number based on how many I have personally seen. Hopefully the 29 number will be debunked once the sunroof registry proves there are more than 29.

chargervert - I believe you are spot on with your assumption. As I further amass cars for the registry, I am getting a good feel for survival rates on these early power sunroof cars. Currently, the survival rate for the 1969 sunroof Chargers is right around 15%. Taking into account that lower end models will have lower survival rates, and higher end models will have higher survival rates, there should be more R/T SE models that survive versus a XP29 base model with sunroof. Going with that assumption - and giving the R/T SE cars a survival rate around 33% or 1/3 - that would put the original production of R/T SE sunroof cars around 60 cars.
Scott.

[kent]

Understood Homerr



I know I couldn't live with myself trying to pull that one off.

Too bad for the car. Nice car just the same.

[tan top]

 the American sunroof  corperation  , must of kept a list of  VIN numbers on the cars they converted for Chrysler or any other make  , for reference / warranty if something goes wrong with the roof with in say a year  or ...   if those records existed ,  prolly long  gone by now

[chargervert]

The long heard ,believed production number of 69 Charger R/T SE sunroof cars was 29. That number came to be the accepted number, but it was determined by doing simple math,by the presumed percentage of believed sunroof cars produced, then that number was subtracted from the total production number of 69 Charger R/T SE cars built.  I believe that the real production number of cars with the sunroof option is probably close to double the presumed 29 number based on how many I have personally seen. Hopefully the 29 number will be debunked once the sunroof registry proves there are more than 29.

chargervert - I believe you are spot on with your assumption. As I further amass cars for the registry, I am getting a good feel for survival rates on these early power sunroof cars. Currently, the survival rate for the 1969 sunroof Chargers is right around 15%. Taking into account that lower end models will have lower survival rates, and higher end models will have higher survival rates, there should be more R/T SE models that survive versus a XP29 base model with sunroof. Going with that assumption - and giving the R/T SE cars a survival rate around 33% or 1/3 - that would put the original production of R/T SE sunroof cars around 60 cars.
Scott.

I believe that your registry will eventually prove that the numbers are higher than the presumed 29 number that has been circulated around for many years Scott.

[Challenger340]

& it didn't have a sunroof

http://www.hamtramck-historical.com/foundBlackFlag60.shtml

And yet, some people have told me I am wasting my time.......

The fender tag is a fake & the original XS29L9B366061 is dead & gone.


Maybe one of the foolish members here that defends VIN swapping will step up to the plate & buy this steaming pile of felony?  

That's what I think.... FAKE TAG !

I compared it to our R/T SE Fender Tag, which I will NOT post here obviously, and there are some very subtle, albeit identifiable differences in spacing/borders etc., that leads me to believe that this is a "repop" Tag,
that,
although probably based off the original tag ?  has been very carefully made to "appear" original, things like put 1 screw in and bend up to crease, etc., nonetheless , IMO it's a repop !

[DAY CLONA]

Nice car, too bad it's a 69, a 70 would be more to my liking regardless of whether it's a rebody.... needs a 4 spd though

[XS29LA47V21]

Sad really.  Yes it is a real Yenko....

FWIW, the V21 on one of my cars is on top line also, but mine has no options in front of the V21.  I do not know those two options off my head without looking. Getting to midlife old.  Someone interested could study and figure out the two options in front of the V21 (B or P21 or whatever and V1W) and if they should be there.  Pretty freaky optioned car to just appear.  V21, nice colored RTSEs with tons of options would have likely some documented history, near cult followers and this cars history all stacks up not good it seems.  Not to mention what thread has documented above. 

[Y1CHARGER]

Sad really.  Yes it is a real Yenko....

FWIW, the V21 on one of my cars is on top line also, but mine has no options in front of the V21.  I do not know those two options off my head without looking. Getting to midlife old.  Someone interested could study and figure out the two options in front of the V21 (B or P21 or whatever and V1W) and if they should be there.  Pretty freaky optioned car to just appear.  V21, nice colored RTSEs with tons of options would have likely some documented history, near cult followers and this cars history all stacks up not good it seems.  Not to mention what thread has documented above. 

option codes on the top line look to be ok, the "B or P21" is the radio code "R21" which would be correct right where it is along with the V1W before the V21, BUT the tag does have other issues that I think discussing just gives the owner opportunity to correct it, kind of a double edge sword, information for correctness is good to point out the fakes But gives the Fakers the info they need to make a better fake 

[6bblgt]

it's a FAKE tag with little basis in historical accuracy - the specifics of the FAKE tag do not really matter

[Alaskan_TA]

The specifics can matter in some cases.

Fake fender tags are all over the place, the people that make them must be making money.

So, specifics........

Who are the fake tag makers & which one of them made this one for a VIN swapped car?

There are also people that help people with fake paperwork with details to make 'even better' fakes.

VIN swapped cars are all over the place too.

Losers with no scruples do what they do, hopefully everyone takes notice of who those people are & take their actions into account.

Threads like this can help everyone avoid ever buying anything from the fakers & frauds that help with & participate in numbers fraud & VIN swapping.

[Moparpoolman]

Sad really.  Yes it is a real Yenko....

FWIW, the V21 on one of my cars is on top line also, but mine has no options in front of the V21.  I do not know those two options off my head without looking. Getting to midlife old.  Someone interested could study and figure out the two options in front of the V21 (B or P21 or whatever and V1W) and if they should be there.  Pretty freaky optioned car to just appear.  V21, nice colored RTSEs with tons of options would have likely some documented history, near cult followers and this cars history all stacks up not good it seems.  Not to mention what thread has documented above.  

This statement makes no sense, if there were no options in front of "V21" then your tag would be blank?

[chargerperson]

Ebay has a "report item" which allows the reporting of issues such as noted above.

[alfaitalia]

Bit quiet at work...so did both the "contact seller" and "report item"....

Nice as it is...am I the only one that thinks that the white vinyl and the black V71 don't really belong together on the same  red car...visually at least...just looks messy and disjointed in my opinion.

[DAY CLONA]

Nice as it is...am I the only one that thinks that the white vinyl and the black V71 don't really belong together on the same  red car...visually at least...just looks messy and disjointed in my opinion.

I think the color combos play themselves rather "brilliant" as you Brits would say, most of your American musclecars touting hood black out treatments were often paired with different stripe colors/ vinyl top treatments/colors....

[alfaitalia]

 

[XS29LA47V21]

Sad really.  Yes it is a real Yenko....

FWIW, the V21 on one of my cars is on top line also, but mine has no options in front of the V21.  I do not know those two options off my head without looking. Getting to midlife old.  Someone interested could study and figure out the two options in front of the V21 (B or P21 or whatever and V1W) and if they should be there.  Pretty freaky optioned car to just appear.  V21, nice colored RTSEs with tons of options would have likely some documented history, near cult followers and this cars history all stacks up not good it seems.  Not to mention what thread has documented above.  

option codes on the top line look to be ok, the "B or P21" is the radio code "R21" which would be correct right where it is along with the V1W before the V21, BUT the tag does have other issues that I think discussing just gives the owner opportunity to correct it, kind of a double edge sword, information for correctness is good to point out the fakes But gives the Fakers the info they need to make a better fake  

I do not disagree with the consensus of not pointing out the specific issues for reasons noted by others.  However some of us do want to learn more over time how to see the issues.  But for most of us more importantly ..... is not to buy a faked up car obviously.  And that is what the thread is doing which is really good.  Thank you to those who caught it and pointed it out.

[DAY CLONA]

Sad really.  Yes it is a real Yenko....

FWIW, the V21 on one of my cars is on top line also, but mine has no options in front of the V21.  I do not know those two options off my head without looking. Getting to midlife old.  Someone interested could study and figure out the two options in front of the V21 (B or P21 or whatever and V1W) and if they should be there.  Pretty freaky optioned car to just appear.  V21, nice colored RTSEs with tons of options would have likely some documented history, near cult followers and this cars history all stacks up not good it seems.  Not to mention what thread has documented above.  

option codes on the top line look to be ok, the "B or P21" is the radio code "R21" which would be correct right where it is along with the V1W before the V21, BUT the tag does have other issues that I think discussing just gives the owner opportunity to correct it, kind of a double edge sword, information for correctness is good to point out the fakes But gives the Fakers the info they need to make a better fake  

I do not disagree with the consensus of not pointing out the specific issues for reasons noted by others.  However some of us do want to learn more over time how to see the issues.  But most importantly most of us.....it is not to buy a faked up car obviously.  And that is what the thread is doing which is really good.  Thank you to those who caught it and pointed it out.

Some get their panties all waded up over "exposing trade secrets " of the fender tag mystique, be it original tags or reproductions, mean while you have FB forums that are devoted to nothing but viewing/discussing Mopar fender tags