Silver Sport Overdrives.....5 speed manual.... Who has switched a 727 to a 5 spe

[Kern Dog]

I've wanted to put an overdrive in my Charger for years. I actually had a Gear Vendors for a couple of years but had some troubles with it. I pulled it and sold it awhile ago. Since then I've thought about what options exist. My car has always been an automatic so I leaned toward that. The 518 has worked for some but I thought that if I went with a 4 speed auto, I'd rather use the 4L60E for 2 reasons....The deeper first gear and no cutting of the floor or torsion bar crossmember. The cost though! $5500-6000 ?
I recently began considering a 5 speed swap. I have had a few 4 speed cars and one truck over the years and have had fun with them but never thought of putting one in this car. I don't care much for drag racing but I DO love cornering, street fun and distance driving on road trips. The Silver Sport quote for me was just about $6600. Still not cheap but it does include everything including a hydraulic clutch and a Pistol Grip shifter. The trans has a 2.87 1st gear and a .64 5th gear. Not bad. My 3.55 diff should be a decent match.
Who has made this swap? What has been your experience with it?

[Mopar Nut]

The 518 has worked for some but I thought that if I went with a 4 speed auto, I'd rather use the 4L60E for 2 reasons....The deeper first gear and no cutting of the floor or torsion bar crossmember. The cost though! $5500-6000 ?

Why install a GM trans in a MOPAR?  

What's next, a LS swap?  

[XH29N0G]

When my car was restored, I had them swap in a TKO 600 from another vendor.  They didn't quite get the driveline angles right. They should have completely redone the tunnel, but didn't.  I then had to fix those things and learned a lot.  I also learned some about the various TKO shifters. 

Installation:  I didn't do this, and didn't go through the alignment procedure, but understand that is critical.  I have had the transmission out, and it is nice (light) and not difficult to reinstall.

Tunnel:  The car originally had a manual, but the floor pans were replaced with those for an automatic which might have made things tighter with the install at the front of the transmission.  I had to further cut and bank the top at the front to make it fit.  My suggestion if you go this route is to modify the tunnel properly to make the space.  The front of the transmission fits higher and getting driveline angles right is important.  At the back of the tunnel is a crossmember.  The transmission I bought did not have a notch cut out of the tail shaft.  The SST kits have that notch cut out.  That meant my crossmember had to be cut, and I think this is a bad idea for body rigidity. You want that notch, otherwise the tail shaft cannot come high enough up to get good driveline angles.  I had to insert shims under the rear mount to make the angles correct. 

Clutch etc...:  I had the original Z bar and clutch.  Travel is long compared to modern cars.  My 20 y.o. son hated it and complained his knee would hit the steering wheel when he let the clutch out.  I shortened it a bit, but I would hope the hydraulic clutch supplied with your kit would have a nicer travel.   

Gearing:  I think the 3.55 could be a very nice match to their 1st.  I do not know about 5th and I'll explain.  My car as 4.30 gears and 27" tires so the OD makes a difference.  For first gear with my car, I think it might be nicer with a different 1st because it hits the 1-2 shift at ~35-38 mph very quickly.  On the other side, 1700 RPM is just over 50 mph and 65 is about 2300 RPM.  I think these would be 60 mph and 78 mph with 355 and similar tire size.  That would be very nice for a 65-75 highway speed, but would be close to meaning 4th for 55 mph (city hwy) for me because my engine can lug at lower RPM.

Speedometer pinion gear.  The plastic drive for the speedometer is crummy for the 4.30 gears and stripped on the first install, but has lasted so far on the second.  The teeth on the one for the 355 gears might be more robust.

Shifter:  I have had two shifters in mine.  One came with my original kit.  A second was installed by SST when I had the tailshaft modified to cut a notch into it.  I also have had several shifter handles and eventually fabricated my own.  The shifter appears to be designed for a much shorter handle, so the return springs are critical for alignment and the 2-3 shift (otherwise I hit the gate).  The traditional long handle moves so far and has so much leverage against the springs in the shifter assy. that I didn't have a feel for the gates.  So I cut my shifter handle down (use a ball instead of pistol grip) and also replaced the springs in the shifter assy. with stiffer ones.  Disassembled, measured spring dimensions and bought some similar sized ones, but with higher spring rate from McMaster Carr.  This worked well.  Aside: also did this for my small (cheap) hydraulic Jack to keep the handle from springing back into the side of my car.  What I have now is a nice tight shifter that is aligned in the 3-4 slot and pulls over for 1-2 and 5-reverse slots and compensates for my stupid training with a 4 speed.  This is something to talk with the people who make the shifters and supply the kits.  The SST one is nice and you can modify if you wish.

Driveshaft:  This appears well made.  I am not an expert and didn't make the measurements, but it worked well.  I had to rebalance it at a shop that works with trucks to make it work better with the 430 gears.

Driveline angles:  Maybe just me and the 430 gears, but I found this to be critical and really make a big difference.  I had to shim the rear, raise the tailshaft, and even shimmed the K-frame by 1/2 inch.  You can search the various pages on this site using google with something like "site:www.dodgecharger/com XH29N0G TKO" or Driveline angles or .... to find those threads. 

Hope this helps. 

I really like the transmission and how it behaves.  My guess is that I would like one of the 6 speed transmissions better.  Maybe there is someone in the area where you are that has one you can drive to see how you like it. 

[Mike DC]

  

Why install a GM trans in a MOPAR?  shruggy

Some guys ask more than just "did it break?" when they are judging a tranny's performance.  Weight, horsepower drag, gear ratios, etc.  

Not to mention the cutting required to install a Mopar A518.  The GM tranny options don't require cutting.  

[c00nhunterjoe]

Personally i dont find the 4l60 as a good performance transmission without ALOT of costly internal upgrades. The 4l80 is a much better choice for a b body but i dont know if it fits without modifications to the car.

[John_Kunkel]

The 4L60 has been around long enough that all the weaknesses are known and the upgrade parts aren't that expensive, many are used on stock rebuilds. If I was gonna do an OD automatic swap I'd use the 4L60 because it's more compact and has better gear ratios.

[Mike DC]

  
Art Carr does a conversion kit to put a GM 2004r in a Mopar.  

The 200 is not very strong from the factory but it gets a lot better with aftermarket parts.  It's a 4spd overdrive, no cutting to install in a Mopar, and it doesn't soak up a lot of HP.  

I imagine the 700r4/4L60E can be adequately strong with enough aftermarket parts thrown at it.  But it's widely known as a weak item.  The 2004r might be a better place to start.  The 200 is not electronic.  The gear ratios are more evenly spaced.  It seems to have a better rep when you are comparing beefed-up versions of each.  

[375instroke]

I got a car specifically to swap a 5-speed into, and since I've been reading up on the options, 6-speed swaps came up, and may be a better option, not just for the extra gear, but people who have done both say the 6-speed shifts better.  I have experience with neither, so perhaps others can chime in who have.

[Kern Dog]

One thing to consider:
Lower cruising rpms are a good idea in general as long as the engine and camshaft are suited to operating at that speed. If you are lugging a big cammed engine at 1200 rpms in 6th gear doing 65 mph, you might actually get better mileage doing 75 or staying in 5th gear.

[c00nhunterjoe]

One thing to consider:
Lower cruising rpms are a good idea in general as long as the engine and camshaft are suited to operating at that speed. If you are lugging a big cammed engine at 1200 rpms in 6th gear doing 65 mph, you might actually get better mileage doing 75 or staying in 5th gear.

ALOT of people overlook this. You dont notice it as much in an auto because the converter will absorb alot of the cam, but in a stick car, nothing forgives so if shes skipping off the cam, you are in for a ride and no power either. The majority of cam profiles discussed and used on this site wouldnt like to cruise in a stick car below 2k.  Fwiw, mine doesnt "clean up" til about 4,000 lmao.

[Kern Dog]

I had a Lunati solid cam...556 intake, 578 exhaust with 261*I, 271* @ .050 and the cam card for 383/440 listed an rpm range of 4700-7000. 
Oddly, it was not bad from idle to 6200. No bad habits but it did feel a lot stronger above 2800 rpms. I think these cam companies need to expand their power range estimates to include engines with stroke increases. A 383 with a 3.38 stroke will behave a LOT different than a 493 with a 4.15 stroke. I loved the sound of that cam!

[c00nhunterjoe]

Indeed, cubes change everything. Mine is 286 @ .050 on a legit pump gas 440. No stroker here.

[69Chrgr]

I've wanted to put an overdrive in my Charger for years. I actually had a Gear Vendors for a couple of years but had some troubles with it. I pulled it and sold it awhile ago. Since then I've thought about what options exist. My car has always been an automatic so I leaned toward that. The 518 has worked for some but I thought that if I went with a 4 speed auto, I'd rather use the 4L60E for 2 reasons....The deeper first gear and no cutting of the floor or torsion bar crossmember. The cost though! $5500-6000 ?
I recently began considering a 5 speed swap. I have had a few 4 speed cars and one truck over the years and have had fun with them but never thought of putting one in this car. I don't care much for drag racing but I DO love cornering, street fun and distance driving on road trips. The Silver Sport quote for me was just about $6600. Still not cheap but it does include everything including a hydraulic clutch and a Pistol Grip shifter. The trans has a 2.87 1st gear and a .64 5th gear. Not bad. My 3.55 diff should be a decent match.
Who has made this swap? What has been your experience with it?

What kind of problems did you have with it? I'm about to pull the trigger on one.

[Kern Dog]

I'm still putting together the cash to get this 5 speed setup. I like to buy and sell cars and parts on the side. It is great to be able to buy something big with what was essentially just stuff I had out back!
The Gear Vendors:
I had a rebuilt GV that was one of their early units. By early, I mean that it was one with rather primitive electronics so it sometimes stayed in OD even as I came to a stop. Sometimes it would be resistant to engaging into OD at freeway speeds. It had a bolt on yoke that required me to have a custom drive shaft made that was similar to a front drive shaft from a 4WD, a "slip and spline" type that may have been what caused the vibration that annoyed me so much. It had no mounting points to accommodate the factory floor shifter bracket so an alternative bracket had to be made. The speedometer output points UP and toward the body instead of being horizontal or pointing down. This required a 90 degree adapter to avoid having the speedo cable bind. THe adapter broke and the GV guys had no idea when they'd get more in. Service parts were hard to get. The excuse was that all parts were built to go with the kits they sell and they didn't have any or many service parts on hand. That is a bullshit way to run a business.
The newer versions are supposed to have several improvements including improved electronics, a mounting boss for the shifter brackets and a slip yoke type output.

[Challenger340]

One thing to consider:
Lower cruising rpms are a good idea in general as long as the engine and camshaft are suited to operating at that speed. If you are lugging a big cammed engine at 1200 rpms in 6th gear doing 65 mph, you might actually get better mileage doing 75 or staying in 5th gear.

ALOT of people overlook this. You dont notice it as much in an auto because the converter will absorb alot of the cam, but in a stick car, nothing forgives so if shes skipping off the cam, you are in for a ride and no power either. The majority of cam profiles discussed and used on this site wouldnt like to cruise in a stick car below 2k.  Fwiw, mine doesnt "clean up" til about 4,000 lmao.

The Camshaft aspect would be my primary concern as well, especially for the lower O.D. range cruising efficiency ie: 1,800-2,000 rpm.     

While they may "run" down there, the vast majority of Cams typically used/referenced on this site for Stroker's, would lack effiencies conduscive to good A/F mixtures, and IMO using Carburetors may even potentially load up or otherwise be a constant source of grief ?

Just saying.... IMO
Planning for the O.D. application engine/cam-wise beforehand, and including an F.I. setup may pay great dividends later ?

[Kern Dog]

Great points.
I am not looking to cruise at 1800 rpms. Currently I roll above the 3000 range with a 28 inch tire and 3.55 gears. I'll soon add a shorter tire since I'm making a change based on appearance and that will only increase the cruise rpms. The rpm reduction, something to the low 2000 range, maybe in the 2200 to 2400 rpms at 70-75 would be great. My 2007 Ram runs at 2200 at 75 and I'm fine with that.

[XH29N0G]

Run it through a calculator like this https://www.reillymotorsports.com/speed-tire-rpm-calculator.html to confirm where you will be. 

[Kern Dog]

Thank you for that.


Tire size

27.5" Tire

Axle Gears

3.55:1

TKO600 5speed
1st
2nd
3rd
4th
5th .64
optional 5th


Normal
Overdrive
Calculation
Engine RPM   
2200

Transmission Ratio   
0.64
: 1
Overdrive Ratio   
1
: 1
Ring & Pinion Ratio   
3.55
: 1
Tire Diameter   
27
inches

Total Gear Ratio   
2.3
: 1
Speed   
77.8
MPH @ 2200 rpm.

That is GREAT, just where I was hoping it would be!

[Nacho-RT74]

https://www.passonperformance.com/categories/complete-transmissions/product/502-passon-performance-a-855-five-speed-transmission

[Kern Dog]

Passon....
That makes me think of the best looking woman in the world: You WANT her, you know that she is great but she is unavailable and will likely be out of reach for a few more years.

[Nacho-RT74]

well... I think the first time I saw this was 8 or 9 months ago? so, I don't think should take really that long to be available. Being a plug and play job, I would wait pattiently

[Kern Dog]

The Passon 5 speed has had a waiting list since the man first announced plans to build one. They had trouble finding a willing machinist or vendor for specific parts plus they are already doing well with their original business of OEM 4 speed stuff.

[Daytona R/T SE]

The Passon 5 speed has had a waiting list since the man first announced plans to build one. They had trouble finding a willing machinist or vendor for specific parts plus they are already doing well with their original business of OEM 4 speed stuff.

Eight years and counting:

http://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/867739/new-passon-performance-5-speed-update.html#Post867739


It's a mechanical cock tease. 

[Nacho-RT74]

OUCH!!!!

[Derwud]

It's a mechanical cock tease. 

Ha-Ha.....