What size headers for a 440?

[metallicareload99]

I currently have some old cheap Hedman 1 3/4"primary headers and I'm looking to upgrade:

-446
-10.3+ or so compression, L2355F30 Piston
-Trick-Flow 240 heads
-Isky solid roller, 292° advertised, 258° @ 0.050, .590 lift, 0.393 lobe lift. Hot lash .028" 110° LSA. Grind R-797
-Harland Sharp 1.5 ratio rockers
-18 spline A-833, 143 tooth flywheel, 3.54 Tru-Trac Dana 60, 28"+ tires
-1968 Charger, primarily street/daily driver.  Full 2.5" (aside from the current headers) tti X-pipe exhaust with DynoMax UltraFlos

I had planned on TTI 1 7/8" headers, but would a 2" primary be a better choice?  Doug's headers?

Do the tti 2" headers really need the RobbMc 3005 starter?

I'm also using head studs instead of bolts, if I shorten/grind down the drivers side lower row studs, shouldn't I be able to clear the tubes/flanges?

Would my exhaust system as it is be able to make a crankcase evacuation system kit work/worthwhile?  Thanks for any advice!


-Nicholai

[mopar0166]

I bought the dougs headers and have been happy since.  I wasn't spending the extra dough for TTI.  They fit great and you really should use a mini starter. 

[303 Mopar]

Ceramic TTI 1 7/8" on my 505 stroker. They fit perfect.  And yes, run a mini starter.

[metallicareload99]

The mini starter is all I've used since going Big Block

I bought the dougs headers and have been happy since.  I wasn't spending the extra dough for TTI.  They fit great and you really should use a mini starter. 

If I don't get tti, than I'll defiantly get Dougs, although they aren't that much cheaper. @ first I thought 2" primary tube diameter was too big for what I was doing, but from what I have been reading it's on the small end?

Ceramic TTI 1 7/8" on my 505 stroker. They fit perfect.  And yes, run a mini starter.

If I can get 440 HP @ the wheels with my little 440, I'd be more than happy.  What RPM were you turning @ peak horsepower? 

[timmycharger]

I am running 2" TTI (actually when they were still CPPA brand) along with the same size flywheel in a Lakewood bellhousing.  I had to grind a tiny bit on the casting of the mini starter to make it clear as well as a bit on the bellhousing but it all fits.   For my mild 440, the headers are overkill in my opinion but they were what I had so on they went.

[c00nhunterjoe]

The 1 7/8 are a good all around size for that combination. The 2" will make more peak power, but i doubt you would notice it in the seat-o-pants meter.

[firefighter3931]

My old 446 combo was very similar to yours : ported E-Heads, 260@.050 solid cam, 2355 speedpro pistons, Holley SD intake, 850 DP carb. On the dyno we tried all kinds of things chasing horsepower including 3 different sets of headers.

Comparing a 2in vs a 1 7/8in primary tube we recorded a 20ftlb drop in Torque across the entire test range. The peak tq was 540 ftlbs with the 1 7/8 and 520 ftlbs with the 2in. Horsepower was identical at 535HP with both sets of headers....and the peak horsepower rpm was the same as well (6000 rpm).

If it were mine and I was looking for the best choice it would be a 1 7/8 primary tube header.....TTI being the obvious choice. 


Ron

[c00nhunterjoe]

Wow ron, it really didnt like the bigger tubes in that case. Hp curve stayed the same between the 2 sets though?

[firefighter3931]

Wow ron, it really didnt like the bigger tubes in that case. Hp curve stayed the same between the 2 sets though?

Hi Joe,

I believe that combo was intake manifold limited so using the low rise Street Dominator the numbers in terms of horsepower were indeed identical between the 2in & 1 7/8 headers.

We did throw the kitchen sink at it swapping a set of large tube step headers (2 to 2 1/8 with 4in collector) and a Victor high rise single plane. With the Victor the engine was able to move more air and the bigger headers allowed it to exhale better. The torque peak went up 300rpm (to 4700 rpm) and was in the same ballpark as the 2in headers (~ 525-530ftlbs) but the horsepower spiked up 25 to 560HP at a couple hundred additional rpm. The Big intake and big headers increased horsepower but made it softer on the bottom end. Acceptable for a bracket car but not so good for a dual purpose street car.

Interesting experiment but in the end the Street Dominator/smaller header was the right choice given the intended purpose of this build.  Best numbers on a good air day was 11.68@116.5 at 4100 raceweight on pump gas.



Ron

[c00nhunterjoe]

Not bad. I was wondering about the step headers as that is what i am running on my 440. I did not dyno it but the 2 to 2 1/8 steps seem to breath pretty well on pump gas in my combo at 34° of timing in my 4kplus pig at a conservative 10.90s in the 1/4 so far. A roll cage, new valve covers that allow more timing, and my new intake should easily put my 440 in the 10 teens, albeit on race gas, but 10s on 93 is not too shabby imo.

[ACUDANUT]

 IMO (worthless) Stay away from headers. 

[c00nhunterjoe]

IMO (worthless) Stay away from headers. 

On the build he already has, putting manifolds on would drop alot of power, very noticeable power. If you build an engine specifically to make the most usable power with manifolds, thats a different story, but even then it will be down on power.
     I assume you are against headers for starter and spark plug replacement.... how often do you replace starters? And on an aluminum headed big block there is no water jackets so we are talking about a couple extra bolts to loosen and raise the car up some.... its not a big deal. A big deal is some of these modern manufactures who think burying a starter under an intake manifold is a good idea.... and 6 hrs later you have it replaced.... 
   As to the spark plugs, buy a decent pair of headers and plug changes are not a problem either. My 2 1/8 tubes have plenty of wire clearance and i can change 8 plugs on a hot motor in a matter of minutes without a burn. Aside from that, why are you replacing plugs so often to even worry about it? A copper core should last 30,000 miles...

[firefighter3931]

Not bad. I was wondering about the step headers as that is what i am running on my 440. I did not dyno it but the 2 to 2 1/8 steps seem to breath pretty well on pump gas in my combo at 34° of timing in my 4kplus pig at a conservative 10.90s in the 1/4 so far. A roll cage, new valve covers that allow more timing, and my new intake should easily put my 440 in the 10 teens, albeit on race gas, but 10s on 93 is not too shabby imo.

Your 440 has better heads than mine did (MW 440-1 vs std port E-head) so it stands to reason that the step header will make more horsepower. 10.90's at 4000lb raceweight is showing 560hp on the Moroso slide rule.  An MP 337 or ICH MW dual plane would be a step in the right direction on the induction side for that combo.  You are definitely intake manifold limited. 

Here's another interesting header test to chew on : A member was dyno testing his 580in build awhile back after a refresh. The dyno operator was using a 2in primary tube header and it made 850 hp. He had a set of custom built large tube step headers built for the car (2 1/8 - 2 1/4) and wanted to see the difference. Interestingly, the engine made the same 850HP but lost 5 ftlbs of torque. I found that surprising given the seriousness of the build. A 2in tube will support a lot of power.

That being said....I went with a 2in TTI on mine with the 572 & Ez 295's. I don't think a bigger header would make anymore HP and it would probably move the torque curve upwards. Exactly what you don't want with a street car.



Ron

[c00nhunterjoe]

Not bad. I was wondering about the step headers as that is what i am running on my 440. I did not dyno it but the 2 to 2 1/8 steps seem to breath pretty well on pump gas in my combo at 34° of timing in my 4kplus pig at a conservative 10.90s in the 1/4 so far. A roll cage, new valve covers that allow more timing, and my new intake should easily put my 440 in the 10 teens, albeit on race gas, but 10s on 93 is not too shabby imo.

Your 440 has better heads than mine did (MW 440-1 vs std port E-head) so it stands to reason that the step header will make more horsepower. 10.90's at 4000lb raceweight is showing 560hp on the Moroso slide rule.  An MP 337 or ICH MW dual plane would be a step in the right direction on the induction side for that combo.  You are definitely intake manifold limited. 

Here's another interesting header test to chew on : A member was dyno testing his 580in build awhile back after a refresh. The dyno operator was using a 2in primary tube header and it made 850 hp. He had a set of custom built large tube step headers built for the car (2 1/8 - 2 1/4) and wanted to see the difference. Interestingly, the engine made the same 850HP but lost 5 ftlbs of torque. I found that surprising given the seriousness of the build. A 2in tube will support a lot of power.

That being said....I went with a 2in TTI on mine with the 572 & Ez 295's. I don't think a bigger header would make anymore HP and it would probably move the torque curve upwards. Exactly what you don't want with a street car.



Ron

The 10.90 was at 125 mph... I was not intending on running that fast. (No cage), lifted early. it was a grudge race against a friend and i wanted to stay just in front of him and got a little carried away...lol. to make matters worse it had a custom build stock port intake that was massaged to mate to my heads. Not sure how much power was lost using it but last minute grudge race meant last minute parts needed to get to the track. Since then i have installed a fully ported indy intake on it but do not have the cage so i do not know how much improvement it has made. The car with the cage SHOULD have 10.0s in it in summer heat. My goal is to break into the 9s on pump gas, stock suspension, and a 9" tire. But thats a whole other topic.

[metallicareload99]

IMO (worthless) Stay away from headers.  

On my big block, headers are all I know.  If I've gotten by with the cheap headers this long, I think TTI will be better

My old 446 combo was very similar to yours : ported E-Heads, 260@.050 solid cam, 2355 speedpro pistons, Holley SD intake, 850 DP carb. On the dyno we tried all kinds of things chasing horsepower including 3 different sets of headers.

Comparing a 2in vs a 1 7/8in primary tube we recorded a 20ftlb drop in Torque across the entire test range. The peak tq was 540 ftlbs with the 1 7/8 and 520 ftlbs with the 2in. Horsepower was identical at 535HP with both sets of headers....and the peak horsepower rpm was the same as well (6000 rpm).

If it were mine and I was looking for the best choice it would be a 1 7/8 primary tube header.....TTI being the obvious choice.  


Ron

I would love for this engine to do what your 446 did.  What RPM did you shift @?  I've been using the Street Dominator, but I now have a brand new Edelbrock Performer RPM now, do you think the Performer RPM would be better choice for me?

[c00nhunterjoe]

I would think he shifts in the 6 to 6200 range. The 2 intakes would be a toss up for 1/4 mile performance

[metallicareload99]

I would think he shifts in the 6 to 6200 range. The 2 intakes would be a toss up for 1/4 mile performance

Yeah?  If I shift in that rpm range I probably wouldn't need to use 4th gear.  Is that unusual?

[c00nhunterjoe]

You trap 3rd gear qt 6,000 rpm on a 4 speed? Tha cant be much mph even given a high rear gear. I shift at 6800 and trap bear that on an auto with 4.88s.

[metallicareload99]

You trap 3rd gear qt 6,000 rpm on a 4 speed? Tha cant be much mph even given a high rear gear. I shift at 6800 and trap bear that on an auto with 4.88s.

Last time I went to the track I shifted into 4th a few times, but I wasn't sure if I was wasting time doing it.  Most of the runs (including my fastest if I recall) I stood on it in 3rd till it was through the traps, so the RPM was probably 6,300+.  Fastest run was 106 mph

[firefighter3931]

I would love for this engine to do what your 446 did.  What RPM did you shift @?  I've been using the Street Dominator, but I now have a brand new Edelbrock Performer RPM now, do you think the Performer RPM would be better choice for me?

I would use the Street Dominator.....and install a 1in 4 hole spacer. The SD will make more power high up in the rpm range and the 4 hole will spike up the throttle response. It's a win-win 

I shifted mine @ 6200 and trapped at 5600-5700....that is with 4.10's and 30in tall drag radials. For yours I would use a shorter 28in tall slick/Drag radial. 

I'm sure that your combo will make more power than mine did ; better heads and a solid roller cam with more area under the curve. With the TF 240's and a .600 lift solid roller it will be easily 30-40hp better 


Ron

[firefighter3931]

Not bad. I was wondering about the step headers as that is what i am running on my 440. I did not dyno it but the 2 to 2 1/8 steps seem to breath pretty well on pump gas in my combo at 34° of timing in my 4kplus pig at a conservative 10.90s in the 1/4 so far. A roll cage, new valve covers that allow more timing, and my new intake should easily put my 440 in the 10 teens, albeit on race gas, but 10s on 93 is not too shabby imo.

Joe.....what gear are you running in that beast ?

10.90's at 125 is haulin azz for a stock stroke 440 in a street/strip Charger. Well done ! 



Ron

[c00nhunterjoe]

Not bad. I was wondering about the step headers as that is what i am running on my 440. I did not dyno it but the 2 to 2 1/8 steps seem to breath pretty well on pump gas in my combo at 34° of timing in my 4kplus pig at a conservative 10.90s in the 1/4 so far. A roll cage, new valve covers that allow more timing, and my new intake should easily put my 440 in the 10 teens, albeit on race gas, but 10s on 93 is not too shabby imo.

Joe.....what gear are you running in that beast ?

10.90's at 125 is haulin azz for a stock stroke 440 in a street/strip Charger. Well done ! 



Ron

4.88s on a 30x9 slick. Its alot of fun to drive.

[c00nhunterjoe]

You trap 3rd gear qt 6,000 rpm on a 4 speed? Tha cant be much mph even given a high rear gear. I shift at 6800 and trap bear that on an auto with 4.88s.

Last time I went to the track I shifted into 4th a few times, but I wasn't sure if I was wasting time doing it.  Most of the runs (including my fastest if I recall) I stood on it in 3rd till it was through the traps, so the RPM was probably 6,300+.  Fastest run was 106 mph

Just re read your 1st post. Missed the 3.54 gears. 6300 wont hurt it with those heads and cam vs a shift speed loss.

[firefighter3931]

Not bad. I was wondering about the step headers as that is what i am running on my 440. I did not dyno it but the 2 to 2 1/8 steps seem to breath pretty well on pump gas in my combo at 34° of timing in my 4kplus pig at a conservative 10.90s in the 1/4 so far. A roll cage, new valve covers that allow more timing, and my new intake should easily put my 440 in the 10 teens, albeit on race gas, but 10s on 93 is not too shabby imo.

Joe.....what gear are you running in that beast ?

10.90's at 125 is haulin azz for a stock stroke 440 in a street/strip Charger. Well done ! 



Ron

4.88s on a 30x9 slick. Its alot of fun to drive.

Wow....that's a lot of gear !  What's the trap RPM at 125 ? 


Ron

[c00nhunterjoe]

Goes through the traps just touching 7,000.