Sad. But our old cars are going to mean nothing.

[Mike DC]

Oh Christ.....Any idiot that thinks that a full time minimum wage job is for an adult needs a kick to the dick. Minimum wage jobs are for idiots, kids starting out or someone that needs a few extra bucks from a second job. If you are 23 years old (Or OLDER) and making minimum wage, you need to stop and look back at where you screwed up, then take steps to improve your condition.
The building trades pay well. Not everyone needs a college degree to make good money.

The ratio of higher-paying jobs to low-wage jobs has dramatically changed from 50 years ago.  The reasons are bigger than any individual living today.  Some of it has been building up for literally centuries.  The average US income isn't enough to live on = a big chunk of Americans will stay in deep financial trouble.  It's just facts & math.  


Sure, let's stress personal responsibility and ambition.  I'm all in favor of that.  But individual ethics alone are not gonna fix all this by itself.  Not even close.  We have to increase the income and/or decrease the cost of living too.  

--  We already earn a shit-ton of money by worldwide standards.  
--  Our living costs are sky-high by worldwide standards (and even compared to our own past).  

Hmm . . .  

[alfaitalia]

Yeah, when anyone uses a Microsoft product, for example, did you know the ex CEO has a net worth of over 40 BILLION.  
So I guess we all subsidized him!   How much does one guy need?  

You bought his products because they were the best or the only ones that did what you needed them to do. He earned that money. NEED? How many cars do you have? Do you need them? Im sure there are plenty of people living in cardboard boxes who wonder "how many cars does one guy need?".

In his defence (assuming you mean Bill Gates) he is quite the philanthropist these days and has literally given away billions to worthy causes around the world.

[Mike DC]

       

In his defence (assuming you mean Bill Gates) he is quite the philanthropist these days and has literally given away billions to worthy causes around the world.

I would be more impressed if he treated his customers & workers better here at home.   

[Ponch ®]

Sure, let's stress personal responsibility and ambition.  I'm all in favor of that.  But individual ethics alone are not gonna fix all this by itself.  Not even close.  We have to increase the income and/or decrease the cost of living too.  

--  We already earn a shit-ton of money by worldwide standards.  
--  Our living costs are sky-high by worldwide standards (and even compared to our own past).  

Hmm . . .  

our living costs are skewed by what the average 'murrican thinks is essential - ie. you gotta make enough to own a house, a jetski, and a muscle car (with a truck and trailer to tow it). Wherein in most parts of the world, having a roof over your head and food on your table on a consistent basis means you're winning at life.

[odcics2]

Yeah, when anyone uses a Microsoft product, for example, did you know the ex CEO has a net worth of over 40 BILLION.  
So I guess we all subsidized him!   How much does one guy need?  

You bought his products because they were the best or the only ones that did what you needed them to do. He earned that money. NEED? How many cars do you have? Do you need them? Im sure there are plenty of people living in cardboard boxes who wonder "how many cars does one guy need?".

Actually, it was already installed on the lap top when I got it.   Freezes up, crashes, sometimes slow.   NO, he did not earn it.  If I turned out a product like this at work, I'd be fired.   

[odcics2]

Yeah, when anyone uses a Microsoft product, for example, did you know the ex CEO has a net worth of over 40 BILLION.  
So I guess we all subsidized him!   How much does one guy need?  

You bought his products because they were the best or the only ones that did what you needed them to do. He earned that money. NEED? How many cars do you have? Do you need them? Im sure there are plenty of people living in cardboard boxes who wonder "how many cars does one guy need?".

In his defence (assuming you mean Bill Gates) he is quite the philanthropist these days and has literally given away billions to worthy causes around the world.

No, NOT Bill Gates.  And he said he gives away millions a year.   

[Mike DC]

our living costs are skewed by what the average 'murrican thinks is essential - ie. you gotta make enough to own a house, a jetski, and a muscle car (with a truck and trailer to tow it). Wherein in most parts of the world, having a roof over your head and food on your table on a consistent basis means you're winning at life.

Yes and no.  It's not just our standards.  It's also our basic expenses.

We have no low-income housing.  We put up a few blocks of it in the ghetto occasionally and it turns into a crap hole.  But that's basically a setup to make the concept look like a failure. It's like trying to help the US working classes' financial woes by giving a handful of crackheads $100 per week.  

We could use low-income vehicles along the same lines if we ever sat down and thought about it.  It's idiotic that it costs modern-car-money when you just want basic transportation or a basic work truck.  Guys like us are better equipped than average to deal with the vehicle situation and even we still have to pay too much.


Healthcare?  It's a private industry that is too big/centralized for competition from small upstarts.  The customers have to either buy the product or die.  Free market capitalism is not working here.  On a worldwide scale the US public pays the most, gets the worst value for it, and the industry makes the highest profits off us.  These three things are not all supposed to happen at the same time.  This is what it looks like when a big 21st-century corporate industry is robbing the public at gunpoint.  

[Ponch ®]

our living costs are skewed by what the average 'murrican thinks is essential - ie. you gotta make enough to own a house, a jetski, and a muscle car (with a truck and trailer to tow it). Wherein in most parts of the world, having a roof over your head and food on your table on a consistent basis means you're winning at life.

Yes and no.  It's not just our standards.  It's also our basic expenses.

We have no low-income housing.  We put up a few blocks of it in the ghetto occasionally and it turns into a crap hole.  But that's basically a setup to make the concept look like a failure. It's like trying to help the US working classes' financial woes by giving a handful of crackheads $100 per week.  

We could use low-income vehicles along the same lines if we ever sat down and thought about it.  It's idiotic that it costs modern-car-money when you just want basic transportation or a basic work truck.  Guys like us are better equipped than average to deal with the vehicle situation and even we still have to pay too much.


Healthcare?  It's a private industry that is too big/centralized for competition from small upstarts.  The customers have to either buy the product or die.  Free market capitalism is not working here.  On a worldwide scale the US public pays the most, gets the worst value for it, and the industry makes the highest profits off us.  These three things are not all supposed to happen at the same time.  This is what it looks like when a big 21st-century corporate industry is robbing the public at gunpoint.  

The prob with low income housing and low income vehicles is that building/manufacturing those things is not "low income". Ie. a contractor does not charge you less to pour concrete and the materials are not going to be cheaper bc its a low income property, and likewise an autoworker - especially when they feel theyre entitled to $40 an hour for bolting bumpers onto RAMs - is not going to take a significant pay cut to build a "low income" car.  The only way to do that is to get it done in China or somewhere similar...but apparently you'd be unpatriotic if you buy one of those cars so...

Re: Healthcare. I don't know what the answer is, but on principle I'm suspicious of letting govt run it. Either way, we can debate the merits of that all day - but what I'm really confounded by is how this particular subject inflames the passions of social security-bailout-subsidy supporting 'murricans. My guess is the usual "its a terrible idea because 'my guy' didn't make it happen"

[Mike DC]

The prob with low income housing and low income vehicles is that building/manufacturing those things is not "low income". Ie. a contractor does not charge you less to pour concrete and the materials are not going to be cheaper its a low income property, and likewise an autoworker - especially when they feel theyre entitled to $40 an hour for bolting bumpers onto RAMs - is not going to take a significant pay cut to build a "low income" car.  The only way to do that is to get it done in China or somewhere similar...but apparently you'd be unpatriotic if you buy one of those cars so...

I don't have a plan for implementing the changes.  I'm just pointing out the problem. 

The automobile is 100 years old and we still restyle & retool the whole damn thing every 5 years.  Servicing used to be possible for the backyard owner and now it's a nightmare.   The complexity is off-the-chart and we are in diminishing returns on a lot of it.  We are voluntarily making this machine way more expensive & complicated than it needs to be.  It's nice to have the option of buying more bells & whistles, but it's a problem when everyone has to buy that much just to get around.  This machine isn't a "toy" like it was 100 years ago.  Now it is a utility that is necessary for modern life.   

Low income housing isn't as easy to cheapen.  But the bottom line is we need more of it.  Most people are spending more than they want to spend (hours worked to pay for it) to get more than they really need.  Most of the public is living inefficiently so a small portion of the public can get richer.  No matter how we shift the effects around it still costs the whole country indirectly. 

If we don't want to subsidize more affordable living costs then we will subsidize it in other ways.  More welfare, police & prisons, broken families from financial stress, bad health, etc.  IMO there is a lot of room to be more sensible about this stuff without turning Communist.

Re: Healthcare. I don't know what the answer is, but on principle I'm suspicious of letting govt run it. Either way, we can debate the merits of that all day - but what I'm really confounded by is how this particular subject inflames the passions of social security-bailout-subsidy supporting 'murricans. My guess is the usual "its a terrible idea because 'my guy' didn't make it happen"

I'm suspicious of letting the govt run it too.  But right now the private industry basically has a no-bid, no-oversight contract to sell healthcare to prison inmates.  This system isn't just failing to help us, it's intentionally designed to screw us as hard as possible.   

Tribalism - The media is growing more divided but I don't think the general public is.  I think the far ends on each side are just being given more attention and yelling louder compared to 20+ years ago.   

[ACUDANUT]

Yeah, when anyone uses a Microsoft product, for example, did you know the ex CEO has a net worth of over 40 BILLION.  
So I guess we all subsidized him!   How much does one guy need?  

You bought his products because they were the best or the only ones that did what you needed them to do. He earned that money. NEED? How many cars do you have? Do you need them? Im sure there are plenty of people living in cardboard boxes who wonder "how many cars does one guy need?".

In his defence (assuming you mean Bill Gates) he is quite the philanthropist these days and has literally given away billions to worthy causes around the world.

Bill Gates only gives, non-white Students a scholarship to IVE league schools. WTF.  Don't believe me, check it out.  I tried for my daughter and found this out. Apparently, if your white, you must be rich....  B.S.

[Challenger340]

It has been said that nowadays in our Capitalist Free Society ?
We are really and truely only "free", to shutup and be good little consumers.

For me anyways once I thought about it long enough, disturbing truisms around some of today's societal problems became evident.  I mean it seems that other than "breathing" or "Voting", one's freedom otherwise is dictated strictly by ability to pay, and increasingly for the average person(formerly the middle class), that ability is diminishing vrs just surviving.
And while it's true the richer get richer and always have, the concentration of wealth within ever fewer has accelerated dramatically, and IMO is disturbing because you will Vote for whatever offers your best chance to continue eating(not free)
 

[Ponch ®]

Yeah, when anyone uses a Microsoft product, for example, did you know the ex CEO has a net worth of over 40 BILLION.  
So I guess we all subsidized him!   How much does one guy need?  

You bought his products because they were the best or the only ones that did what you needed them to do. He earned that money. NEED? How many cars do you have? Do you need them? Im sure there are plenty of people living in cardboard boxes who wonder "how many cars does one guy need?".

In his defence (assuming you mean Bill Gates) he is quite the philanthropist these days and has literally given away billions to worthy causes around the world.

Bill Gates only gives, non-white Students a scholarship to IVE league schools. WTF.  Don't believe me, check it out.  I tried for my daughter and found this out. Apparently, if your white, you must be rich....  B.S.

You're so oppressed.

[ACUDANUT]

Ponch, it's not about me. It's about society today and stereotyping.

[Ponch ®]

Ponch, it's not about me. It's about society today and stereotyping.

Could be worse. Like, if you're black or brown, you're a thug or an "illegal".

Oh wait....

[dual fours]

Sometimes I wonder what would happen to this country (United States of America) if history would repeat it's self. October 29, 1929 to 1939, September 1, 1939, December 7, 1941. 

[alfaitalia]

It kinda did...remember the credit crunch of 2007/2008. A worldwide recession largely caused by the US banks lending to people (and some companies) who could never have afforded to pay it back....known as sub prime lending! Caused a worldwide recession that we (certainly here in Europe) are still paying for now and will be for some years yet...would have been much worse for the UK if we had used the Euro....but luckily we decided against that! Other countries like Greece were not so lucky.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Financial_crisis_of_2007%E2%80%932008

[Ponch ®]

It kinda did...remember the credit crunch of 2007/2008. A worldwide recession largely caused by the US banks lending to people (and some companies) who could never have afforded to pay it back....known as sub prime lending! Caused a worldwide recession that we (certainly here in Europe) are still paying for now and will be for some years yet...would have been much worse for the UK if we had used the Euro....but luckily we decided against that! Other countries like Greece were not so lucky.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Financial_crisis_of_2007%E2%80%932008

as far as the other two dates, since 9/11/01 we've been in two wars that are seemingly endless and have more expensive than all previous wars combined.

[Mytur Binsdirti]

Yeah, when anyone uses a Microsoft product, for example, did you know the ex CEO has a net worth of over 40 BILLION.  
So I guess we all subsidized him!   How much does one guy need?  

You bought his products because they were the best or the only ones that did what you needed them to do. He earned that money. NEED? How many cars do you have? Do you need them? Im sure there are plenty of people living in cardboard boxes who wonder "how many cars does one guy need?".

In his defence (assuming you mean Bill Gates) he is quite the philanthropist these days and has literally given away billions to worthy causes around the world.

Bill Gates only gives, non-white Students a scholarship to IVE league schools. WTF.  Don't believe me, check it out.  I tried for my daughter and found this out. Apparently, if your white, you must be rich....  B.S.

You're so oppressed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rfAvQp-Uk5I

[odcics2]

Old cars -  Not something everyone needs!

Supply and demand.
Lot's of old farts with cars nobody wants anymore!

I wonder what the average age is of the guys on this forum? 

[ACUDANUT]

I would assume the average age is 50+..Give or take 10 years.

[70 sublime]

I would assume the average age is 50+..Give or take 10 years.

My thread on what two cars you would buy from your birthday year had 46 different guys reply with what cars they liked for their birth year
I was a little surprised how many were younger than me

A quick add gave me
2 in their 70's
4 in their 60's
19 in their 50's
10 in their 40's
9 in their 30's
2 in their 20's

If they were all mid decade the average worked out to 49 years old

[ACUDANUT]

Comrade!  Indeed!

That reminded me of a few comments I heard recently about how socialist the US is !!

Social security?   Socialism.
Giving farmers money not to grow stuff, or recently 12 Billion because they are losing $$ because of tariffs?  Socialism.
Driving on Interstates built by a Government jobs program?  Socialism.
Heck, when you call a bunch of guys over to put out a fire, AKA Firemen, that's socialism!

I see your point.

Who do you think pays for Highway repairs. The People who work and pay Taxes.
Firemen and Police are paid through taxes. Not through the Government.
The Government does operate without our taxed dollars. PERIOD.
Nothing is free here. Get educated Limey.

WAIT YOUR PRIME MINISTER IS A FEMALE or he/she.  
10 Bucks you never served for her Majesty or (Military)
P.S. Tell your women over there to shave their pits. lol
Don't get me wrong I love my friends in Europe and we all are on one side. PEACE

[John_Kunkel]

Sometimes I wonder what would happen to this country (United States of America) if history would repeat it's self. October 29, 1929 to 1939, September 1, 1939, December 7, 1941. 

Or April 19, 1775.

[timmycharger]

Comrade!  Indeed!

That reminded me of a few comments I heard recently about how socialist the US is !!

Social security?   Socialism.
Giving farmers money not to grow stuff, or recently 12 Billion because they are losing $$ because of tariffs?  Socialism.
Driving on Interstates built by a Government jobs program?  Socialism.
Heck, when you call a bunch of guys over to put out a fire, AKA Firemen, that's socialism!

I see your point.

Who do you think pays for Highway repairs. The People who work and pay Taxes.
Firemen and Police are paid through taxes. Not through the Government.
The Government does operate without our taxed dollars. PERIOD.
Nothing is free here. Get educated Limey.

WAIT YOUR PRIME MINISTER IS A FEMALE.  
10 Bucks you never served for her Majesty.

   

[ACUDANUT]

 I was not finished when you quoted me. I was only having a friendly poke (in good faith) Our Allies in Europe are our friends.  We will fight and die for you.  I hope you will do that same for us.