Another Envelope Superbird RM23V0A163651

[Aero426]

Got a call from a fellow recently about a Superbird he was considering.     As we talked, he wanted to make sure what he was buying was a "real Superbird".    I asked him to tell me about the car.   He said that it was under restoration and was not completed yet.      I asked him if he had any prior owner history.   All he had was a copy of the current title, registered to a dealer, previously owned by an LLC in a different state.     He had not seen the car in person.    He had no photos of the car prior to restoration starting.   The price on the car was not cheap.

I asked him to get me the VIN.   I checked my registry database for the car and did not find it.    So  I checked the Superbird VIN book and did not find the car.  That list is also subject to human error.    A Google search of the VIN brought no results.   Later, I received an emailed photo of a brand new door VIN label,  a fender tag and a detached VIN plate for V0A163651.     Now the alarm bells are really ringing in my head. 

I explained that this car should really have an in-person expert inspection and that without more documentation of its past, it would not be wise to jump in and send a deposit.        None of the individual search criteria I used are deal breakers on their own.   But when your search turns up nothing,  and tags and title from a car appear from thin air, it makes you wonder. 

[Birdflu]

I agree with everything you mention about the 'car' Doug. Sure is scary to think that someone possibly possesses a VIN tag and fender tag from a car that disappeared years ago. In defense of the VIN and fender tag, they appear to be real NICE originals! 

[Stevetona]

Maybe its the missing #'s from this car?

http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,129944.0.html

[Aero426]

Maybe its the missing #'s from this car?

http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,129944.0.html

First thing I thought of last night.   

[charger_fan_4ever]

Wowsie. Seems highly plausible. In the thread someone posted they knew who bought the ebay wreck. I wonder if the body #'s are legible on the wreck.

Only thing is the fendertag and vin look to be in too good of shape to come from the ebay wreck, but who knows.

[Aero426]

Wowsie. Seems highly plausible. In the thread someone posted they knew who bought the ebay wreck. I wonder if the body #'s are legible on the wreck.

Only thing is the fendertag and vin look to be in too good of shape to come from the ebay wreck, but who knows.

Parts on the wreck were likely removed long ago and saved.   There were no visible body numbers or ID on the Ebay car. 

[Alaskan_TA]

Good catch.

It would be interesting to go all CSI around the body numbers to detect welds.

[6bblgt]

how many known legit Superbirds are not on the NASCAR VIN list?

[Aero426]

how many known legit Superbirds are not on the NASCAR VIN list?

Haven't performed that exercise.   But it has to be uncommon.    I know the list is subject to human error.    But the fact that the car wasn't on the list and had never been spotted somewhere in the last 40+ years was of concern.  

[Alaskan_TA]

I am actually surprised. 

Surprised that the usual losers in the 'numbers fraud is OK' camp have not posted with their opinions yet.   

No worries though.

If they do, just make a mental note of who they are so you know to not buy anything from them.

[hemi-hampton]

I am actually surprised. 

Surprised that the usual losers in the 'numbers fraud is OK' camp have not posted with their opinions yet.   

No worries though.

If they do, just make a mental note of who they are so you know to not buy anything from them.

I know who 2 of them are, how many are in here?

[Alaskan_TA]

Even one is one too many. 

[mopar4ya]

Maybe its the missing #'s from this car?

http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,129944.0.html

I think there is a member here that would know if those are the tags off that car. I'll let him chime in if he wishes. I also believe I know the person that posses the tags from that car, not sure he is a member here. 

[C5X DAYTONA]

Anyone know if the "J" number connects to a vin?   

[Birdflu]

I believe only through the broadcast sheet can the VIN be connected to the vehicle order number, maybe someone else can chime in...

[C5X DAYTONA]

Correct.  AFAIK VON's for birds were never released like they were for the Daytona.   I was thinking more along the line of someone with a data base of fender tag or sheet info and if they have the J codes on birds in order.   I have a huge list of VON's but there only in order by VIN and not VON. 

[C5X DAYTONA]

Does Superbird 179745 sill exist? 

[Aero426]

Correct.  AFAIK VON's for birds were never released like they were for the Daytona.   I was thinking more along the line of someone with a data base of fender tag or sheet info and if they have the J codes on birds in order.   I have a huge list of VON's but there only in order by VIN and not VON. 

Food for thought about Daytona VIN's and VON's.  There is a reason when the Daytona Shipments List was found 20 years ago by a member here, that you had to mail a tracing of your VIN to get the information.   In other words, you had to work for it a little bit to get the (free) information on your car.    Today, folks are creating online registries and databases, really putting too much information out there.     You are never going to stop folks from creating suspect cars.    But why make it easy?   

[nascarxx29]

I remember when list came out required vin tracing I was car 381 out of 385 on that list.Anthony Young author mighty mopars had furnished a list up to 501 daytona etc

[held1823]

Correct.  AFAIK VON's for birds were never released like they were for the Daytona.   I was thinking more along the line of someone with a data base of fender tag or sheet info and if they have the J codes on birds in order.   I have a huge list of VON's but there only in order by VIN and not VON.  

Food for thought about Daytona VIN's and VON's.  There is a reason when the Daytona Shipments List was found 20 years ago by a member here, that you had to mail a tracing of your VIN to get the information.   In other words, you had to work for it a little bit to get the (free) information on your car.    Today, folks are creating online registries and databases, really putting too much information out there.     You are never going to stop folks from creating suspect cars.    But why make it easy?  

i'm a small fish in a big pond, but i look at it exactly opposite. true, suspect cars will always exist, but not every buyer would know who or where to look to, for knowing what is accurate. i'm all for a comprehensive list of what cars came equipped with which options, but do think that info should be limited to the fall of 1969, and how the cars left the factory.  

to be fair, though, i also think it is tragic that  so much history is stuffed away in shoe boxes. there is a treasure trove of photos, etc, that will waste away, having never seen the light of day, rather than being shared to perhaps keep interest in these cars alive, long after none of us are.

[Aero426]

 

to be fair, though, i also think it is tragic that  so much history is stuffed away in shoe boxes. there is a treasure trove of photos, etc, that will waste away, having never seen the light of day, rather than being shared to perhaps keep interest in these cars alive, long after none of us are.

I agree.   And there are a lot of them here.     

[C5X DAYTONA]

I personally think it's not a good idea to post VON numbers on a public data base.   Too easy for someone to figure out suspected dead cars and then have a vin tag and fender tag made with the correct VON.  Like the topic tags Doug posted.  The Vin doesn't match the VON.    Also the Vin is not in a run of Superbird's.  The individual got close....but no cigar....   

[C5X DAYTONA]

 

to be fair, though, i also think it is tragic that  so much history is stuffed away in shoe boxes. there is a treasure trove of photos, etc, that will waste away, having never seen the light of day, rather than being shared to perhaps keep interest in these cars alive, long after none of us are.

I agree.   And there are a lot of them here.     

Same here.   Boxes and boxes and some 15 albums of photos.    Someday when I slow up...I'll start posting photos.  But probably not on this site.  Too much work/time to upload.

[Alaskan_TA]

Scan, save to a flash drive & they can be hosted on www.hamtramck-historical.com in your name if you like?

[Aero426]

This one is still out there.    Got another call from a prospective buyer yesterday.   The car was offered by a classic car dealer in Ohio.