The Willomet Charger

[nvrbdn]

With the engine setting back that far, what will the access to hedder gasket change, or wire/plug swaps be like? Just thinking out loud about when the steering column is in there.

[Willomet_Motor_and_Fab]

With the engine setting back that far, what will the access to hedder gasket change, or wire/plug swaps be like? Just thinking out loud about when the steering column is in there.

In a word, "difficult."

I moved the engine forward to be 1-3/8" backset from the centerline, but that still leaves the plugs for #7 and #8 fully under the cowl and #5 and #6 are now fairly easy to reach.  I'm debating a design for a "dog house" between the firewall and the trans tunnel, too.  The setback has certainly created a lot of work elsewhere, and I hope the improved vehicle dynamics are worth the payoff.

David

[nvrbdn]

That could possibly work well to use some type of design close to an early van dog house. Cant wait to see how this is figured out.

[Willomet_Motor_and_Fab]

Let's catch up.

I've been working on powertrain placement, setting how much to offset it behind the front suspension and side to side, settling on:
1-3/8" backset and 1/2" offset to the passenger side.

From there, it was time to start figuring out how to mount this assembly into the chassis.


The super offset Chris Alston Chassisworks mounts, mounted with the forward bias.




Set.  Time to design and fab.


Removed the upper core support mount to ease ingress/egress of the powertrain.


After some revisions, here's the mount and cradle design.


Loosely assembled on the bench.


Mounts and overlays, all .110 mild steel.


David

[Willomet_Motor_and_Fab]

All mocked up in my lumber yard of a Charger.







How all the plates stack.




The tradeoff is that it takes a lot of filler and argon, but it's a light and efficient and stiff design.


Consequently, I've been TIG welding for a couple of days now.








More time coming up under the hood.

David

[mike69440]

I applaud your decision to Lighten up the K-Frame.  I hope you are following http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,110212.0.html
Pat paid attention to keeping weight off the front.

I have mixed feelings about the LS, I accept the logic, as LS is a true feat of manufacturing engineering done right.  But it doesn't st right with my soul.
FCA should just give you a darn Helliphant in exchange for promotional rights and be done with it.

[Mike DC]

                 


At shows, put out a donation jar with a sign:


Don't like the LS motor?

Then help me buy a comparable Mopar engine.  It costs $10k more.

[Lennard]

Awesome fabricating and welding, David!  

[chargervert]

                 


At shows, put out a donation jar with a sign:


Don't like the LS motor?

Then help me buy a comparable Mopar engine.  It costs $10k more.


I just manned up and spent the cash to put the proper 472 cubic inch dual quad fuel injected Hemi engine in my modified Charger project. I'm not into crossbreeding!

[Charger-Bodie]

                 


At shows, put out a donation jar with a sign:


Don't like the LS motor?

Then help me buy a comparable Mopar engine.  It costs $10k more.

Yeah . Camaros are cheaper too , so might as well just buy one of them since apearantly cost is the main consideration.

[chargervert]

According to the beginning of this thread,this Charger was a real 70 Charger R/T! The guy can do what he wants with his car,but I wouldn't want to be the guy at a Mopar event who cut up a Charger R/T and put a Chevy engine in it! Stick to non Mopar specific events!

[Mike DC]

          

Look at it this way:  This forum is not 'MoparEngines.com'.  That's not what brought us all here.  

Whatever the car in this thread might be, it's more of a classic Dodge Charger than anything else.        

[Willomet_Motor_and_Fab]

I applaud your decision to Lighten up the K-Frame.  I hope you are following http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,110212.0.html
Pat paid attention to keeping weight off the front.

I have mixed feelings about the LS, I accept the logic, as LS is a true feat of manufacturing engineering done right.  But it doesn't st right with my soul.
FCA should just give you a darn Helliphant in exchange for promotional rights and be done with it.

Big fan of Pat's build.  His level of quality is a seriously inspiring.

I think I can pull about 30ish pounds out of the K member using a different combination of parts, but that's still in development.  Additionally, I met the guys at Speedkore at SEMA, and they have a standard 70 hood that shaves a cool 57 lbs.  That will be hard to turn down, along with several more of their front end parts.

The LS selection started almost as an accident, but eventually became a conscious choice that I'll summarize this way - an engine is just a tool in a drawer, and this engine is the correct tool for my application.

At shows, put out a donation jar with a sign:


Don't like the LS motor?

Then help me buy a comparable Mopar engine.  It costs $10k more.

I'd cut and refab the firewall to accommodate a Hellephant.

Awesome fabricating and welding, David! 

Thanks.  I'm fortunate to have mentors that I can call on to help guide me through the design and fab process.

Yeah . Camaros are cheaper too , so might as well just buy one of them since apearantly cost is the main consideration.

Camaros are boring.

I just manned up and spent the cash to put the proper 472 cubic inch dual quad fuel injected Hemi engine in my modified Charger project. I'm not into crossbreeding!

Very cool.  I like your choice.

According to the beginning of this thre
ad,this Charger was a real 70 Charger R/T! The guy can do what he wants with his car,but I wouldn't want to be the guy at a Mopar event who cut up a Charger R/T and put a Chevy engine in it! Stick to non Mopar specific events!

Yep.  This was an original R/T car and came to me without any of the R/T stuff in it.  Perfect for my purposes.

From 30 feet, it's just another Charger with a suspension package.  At 10 feet, the initiated will pickup on the handbuilt stuff and the functional go-fast reliefs.  And only if I fire the engine will the the Mopar-or-no-car dudes know something is up.  My experience is that car folk that like to build junk themselves can argue all day about what's right or better, but still share a beer at the end of the day, and can do all their arguing in a friendly way.  That certainly is my style.

           

Look at it this way:  This forum is not 'MoparEngines.com'.  That's not what brought us all here. 

Whatever the car in this thread might be, it's more of a classic Dodge Charger than anything else.       

That's pretty much my way of thinking.  I've learned a lot from the threads on here, and it's significantly impacted my way of thinking related to what I build vs restore.

David

[Challenger340]

I like the LS Engines, LOTS of aftermarket servicing for parts.... and with Boost anything is possible !
Good Engines !

[chargervert]

My car was an original R/T too,that the previous owner cut the body off and mounted on a modern Laughlin Nascar chassis. I didn't cut up  the R/T he did. I wouldn't do that now a days with the sheetmetal that is available from Auto Metal Direct. I would just build the body from those parts,instead of cutting up a Charger. From the amount of fab work you are doing you could have built a chassis,and used AMD metal too.

[alfaitalia]

         

Look at it this way:  This forum is not 'MoparEngines.com'.  That's not what brought us all here.  

Whatever the car in this thread might be, it's more of a classic Dodge Charger than anything else.        

I disagree....I think......The engine is the soul of the car and I would be uncomfortable without at least a Mopar derived engined. My other passion is Alfa Romeos. As much as I love my 159 it took me a while to really want one....could not get my head around the fact that it had GM engine (from the factory...GM owned Alfa back then) rather than a proper Alfa one!

[moparstuart]

Why spend all the time and money on an Awesome build  and then put the cheapest POS engine on the Planet in it     This build deserves Better     You put all the thought and effort into the car and then its like the Engine is just an afterthought because its cheap  .

[Willomet_Motor_and_Fab]

I like the LS Engines, LOTS of aftermarket servicing for parts.... and with Boost anything is possible !
Good Engines !

That aftermarket support has become a more important element as I progress.  The folks I'm partnering with are good guides, and I'm looking forward to getting into the engine.

My car was an original R/T too,that the previous owner cut the body off and mounted on a modern Laughlin Nascar chassis. I didn't cut up  the R/T he did. I wouldn't do that now a days with the sheetmetal that is available from Auto Metal Direct. I would just build the body from those parts,instead of cutting up a Charger. From the amount of fab work you are doing you could have built a chassis,and used AMD metal too.

An all AMD car would be a neat project, but to my knowledge, they've only produced 68 and 69 parts.

And please don't think that my car was pristine when I took delivery.  It was a basket case - bad patch jobs, stacked mig welds over rust and filler over that, fiberglass in some weird places, a firewall hacked for AC ports, rotted floors and rockers, and the driver rear of the car is actually two different rear ends scabbed together.  Garbage work, and it's all coming out.  From the beginning, it was never going to be a restoration.  I had a vision, and have continued to refine that vision as I built skills to accomplish the work.

I disagree....I think......The engine is the soul of the car and I would be uncomfortable without at least a Mopar derived engined. My other passion is Alfa Romeos. As much as I love my 159 it took me a while to really want one....could not get my head around the fact that it had GM engine (from the factory...GM owned Alfa back then) rather than a proper Alfa one!

This is a fair perspective, and one I've thought about a good bit, especially for restorations and preservations.

Why spend all the time and money on an Awesome build  and then put the cheapest POS engine on the Planet in it     This build deserves Better     You put all the thought and effort into the car and then its like the Engine is just an afterthought because its cheap  .

Thank you for the support and appreciation of the thought and effort.  I put a lot of both into design and construction.

POS is a statement of opinion, and one I do not share related to the LS platform.  Further, I'm not putting this engine in because it's cheap - it did come to me relatively free, but in the end it won't be cheap.  I may not have explained that adequately, and so your perspective of it as an "afterthought" might be a fair one.  Permit me to correct that - the engine selection started a happenstance, and eventually became a conscious choice as the LS platform has the right balance of aftermarket support, ability to create large quantities of torque across the wide RPM range, relatively light weight, and compact external dimensions.  Like most folks that want 700ish hp, it will take 10-15K to get there and remain reliable.  Recall my goal for a 50/50 weight distribution (or as near as I can get) and a 3500 lbs dry weight.  It's hard to see how a 440, 426, or gen3 hemi can take a 14" setback and accomplish that goal and remain comfortable to drive long distances.

Why spend all this time and money - to build the best machine that I can that does all the things that I want it to do.  In my mind, and for this car, tradition cannot compromise function, and there are no rules.

David

[chargervert]

AMD offers all body parts for a 70 Charger, except for the inner roof structure, the front fenders and the hood.  I let AMD use my NOS 70 Charger front valence pan so they could template it and offer 70 Charger front valence pans to everyone. They also reproduce the front bumper. My car has a full Nascar roll cage,so the inner roof structure was removed like most stock cars.

[Mike DC]

I disagree....I think......The engine is the soul of the car and I would be uncomfortable without at least a Mopar derived engined. My other passion is Alfa Romeos. As much as I love my 159 it took me a while to really want one....could not get my head around the fact that it had GM engine (from the factory...GM owned Alfa back then) rather than a proper Alfa one!

Are you so bothered about cars losing their torsion bar & leaf spring suspensions?  To me, the OEM chassis is just as much of the Dodge Charger "essence" as the engine.  Swapping to coilovers and and front-steer rack is changing the whole experience.

Some guys take it farther and want the whole car to remain stock or day-2 condition with bias tires.  Those old tires definitely made the driving experience different. 

Different strokes.


There is no shortage of near/stock old Mopars.  We've got room in the hobby for custom stuff.  It keeps the hobby interesting.  And the fact is, OEM restorations are not doing as much to hook another generation on these cars.  14yo boys don't get excited about hula-hoop steering wheels and vinyl tops and 14x6 rims. 

[Charger-Bodie]

Yeah . Camaros are cheaper too , so might as well just buy one of them since apearantly cost is the main consideration.
Camaros are boring.

So are ls engines.

[INTMD8]

With the engine setting back that far, what will the access to hedder gasket change, or wire/plug swaps be like? Just thinking out loud about when the steering column is in there.

Could do a removable trans tunnel/engine cover? (like a van)

[XH29N0G]

Very interesting thread - thought provoking and fun to see.  I like the way the engineering is going and will be interested to see the final product.  Thanks for sharing this with us.   

[alfaitalia]

I disagree....I think......The engine is the soul of the car and I would be uncomfortable without at least a Mopar derived engined. My other passion is Alfa Romeos. As much as I love my 159 it took me a while to really want one....could not get my head around the fact that it had GM engine (from the factory...GM owned Alfa back then) rather than a proper Alfa one!

Are you so bothered about cars losing their torsion bar & leaf spring suspensions?  To me, the OEM chassis is just as much of the Dodge Charger "essence" as the engine.  Swapping to coilovers and and front-steer rack is changing the whole experience.

Some guys take it farther and want the whole car to remain stock or day-2 condition with bias tires.  Those old tires definitely made the driving experience different. 

Different strokes.


There is no shortage of near/stock old Mopars.  We've got room in the hobby for custom stuff.  It keeps the hobby interesting.  And the fact is, OEM restorations are not doing as much to hook another generation on these cars.  14yo boys don't get excited about hula-hoop steering wheels and vinyl tops and 14x6 rims. 

Fair enough ....and mine is far from stock. I have coilovers for the front and a custom steering box (no R & P though). A day 1 or 2 restoration has little appeal to me. But I love watching the treads on here that are going that way....and the attention to detail is amazing. To me the mods you mention are there to improve the driving experience....better handling, brakes, modern tyres etc. But the engine is the heart and soul of the car. Mine has very little or the original MOPAR in the engine but its MOPAR based and recognisable as such and I might not feel I was driving a Charger without it or with an LS or whatever in its place.. Buts its the OPs car and more importantly his cash.....so best of luck with it. Im very jealous of his welding by the way....mine holds the metal together and is strong enough......but does not look anything like as pretty as that!!!

[Mike DC]

Fair enough ....and mine is far from stock. I have coilovers for the front and a custom steering box (no R & P though). A day 1 or 2 restoration has little appeal to me. But I love watching the treads on here that are going that way....and the attention to detail is amazing.  

Yeah, my stuff doesn't remain all stock either.  I was just making a point.  

Although I do think the chassis design contributes to the 'heart and soul' as much as the engine.  So do the bias-plys.  And the carburetor.  All the quirks add up to make it a Charger.  When is the heart & soul lost?  I dunno.  I don't think it's the change of any specific one of them.  More like a cumulative amount.

Its sorta like asking "what is a muscle car?"  V8?  older model year?  2 doors? big block?  Solid axle?  People want to make a mandatory checklist list but there are exceptions for all of it.  It qualifies as a muscle car by having some number of these things total.

To me the mods you mention are there to improve the driving experience....better handling, brakes, modern tyres etc. But the engine is the heart and soul of the car.

An LS engine is to improve the driving experience here too.  The lighter weight (and indirectly, the dimensions) is part of the larger goal of moving weight off the front end.  If it wasn't a BIG priority then he wouldn't be mounting that engine halfway back inside the cabin.   That is a big PITA and he's not doing it for any other reason.

Im very jealous of his welding by the way....mine holds the metal together and is strong enough......but does not look anything like as pretty as that!!!

True dat.   Definitely.