Dead cylinder on my 440. Cam Swap

[timmycharger]

 

I posted on my build thread regarding the noise I have had since startup of my 440 which I refreshed with rings, bearings and new Edelbrock RPM heads. Below are the videos that I posted of it running.  

After 550 miles I did a compression test as I am getting sick of the noise ( I know, should have done that first  ) but regardless I found the #8 cylinder to have 0 PSI reading and a spark plug that looked brand new.   The other cylinders were mostly around 155 PSI except for a few that were closer to 190 but almost an hr passed from when I did one side to the other as the exhaust was burning my hands.  While I am concerned about the readings of some cylinders being more than 10% different, I am much more concerned with the 0 PSI I got on number 8.  

I got some suggestions already on my car thread but I wanted to move it to a separate topic.   Any tips/tricks on what tests I should be performing to be able to pin point it to valvetrain vs. piston/rings?  

I have a borescope, leakdown gauge set, valve spring compressor (overhead type), dial indicator,  and of course the compression gauge for specialty tools.  


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sSS5oCcsRaQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rFh6mxFDMrE

[justcruisin]

Pull the valve cover and see if all is functioning as it should be. Get that piston up on TDC and plug in your leak down tester, identify were the air is escaping, that will show you were you need to go.

[justcruisin]

Just looked at your clips, first thing that comes to mind is a wiped lobe - hopefully not.

[timmycharger]

Thanks for the input.  Actually I am secretly hoping for a wiped lobe LOL,  I made a mistake in re-using that Mopar 284/484 cam in this build. It has terrible vacuum and a pig off of the line.  before the restoration of the car and engine refresh, The car was set up for racing, much lighter than now and with 4:10 gears and a 3000 stall converter.   Now I have 3:54 rear and a 4 speed.

Thanks again for your feedback.

[b5blue]

bent push rod could be all

[justcruisin]

Easy enough to replace a cam if that is the problem, trouble is a strip down, clean out and new bearings would be prudent.

[timmycharger]

Ugh forgot about metal shavings from lobe damage.. I recently changed the pan and there were no obvious shavings or metal in there but who knows.

Hopefully it's just a bent push rod!

[69wannabe]

Get you one of them remote starter buttons and hook one clip to the battery positive and the other to the starter relay wire that engages the starter (smaller wire going to the starter) pull the valve cover and use the button to spin the engine over and watch the rocker arms and see if they all moving the same up and down. If not then you got a valve train issue for sure. The intake on a 440 is one of the easiest intakes to take off and there is no water that runs through it so there is no mess and you can inspect the cam and lifters good with the intake off. Hope you get it figured out soon....

[440]

I would hook up compressed air before I did anything to determine if it was the top end or bottom end.

[metallicareload99]

Ugh forgot about metal shavings from lobe damage.. I recently changed the pan and there were no obvious shavings or metal in there but who knows.

Hopefully it's just a bent push rod!

My memory is fuzzy and I'm not a real mechanic but, when I had a cam lobe go flat, I don't recall "seeing it" show up in a compression test.  Or at least it wasn't obvious to me.  I had one cylinder once with a bad exhaust guide, I don't remember the numbers but it was a good deal above 0 PSI still, and I recall that it was a compression test that led me to conclude that was the problem before taking the head off.

Like has been mentioned valve covers are easy to take off to have a look, and I think the intake is even easier to take off to rule out bent pushrods and to have a look @ the cam.

As much as I hate to say this, the only time I've seen 0 PSI was when there is a major ring issue.  I had the lands between the compression rings crack and those cylinders showed 0 PSI.  Pouring a little bit of oil into the spark plug holes brought one cylinder up to a few PSI, but obviously there is no coming back from that.  Broken ring hopefully and not the piston       ?  I'm hoping for the best, I've been there and it sux.  Good luck!

I would hook up compressed air before I did anything to determine if it was the top end or bottom end.

[timmycharger]

Thanks guys, appreciate the feedback.  Yes, I should have mentioned I have a remote starter button, I have used that several times in the past and used it to do my compression test.   

Agree, step one will be to put some shop air in there and see what happens and yes, I am hoping it has nothing to do with the piston or rings, otherwise it's game over for this summer. 

[c00nhunterjoe]

0 psi is pretty catastrophic. If a wiped lobe is causing 0 psi, there is so much metal throughout that it needs to get hot tanked

[PlainfieldCharger]

wouldn't a wiped cam lobe still give you a pressure reading....

[timmycharger]

Not sure if you would still get a reading with a wiped cam lobe and I would think I would have seen the metal in the oil after the first oil change and then again when I swapped out pans last winter.

Yea, 0 PSI in a cylinder sure is a kick in the junk.. Let's say if my problems are a bent valve or an issue in the head, would that give me 0 PSI? That wouldn't be too bad if that is the case as I would just pull the head and have it serviced.  If it's piston related or a wiped out cam lobe then the engine will need to come out which won't happen until this winter.

[BSB67]

wow

[c00nhunterjoe]

Lets stop guessing and air the cylinder. It should be obvious where its going.

[charger Downunder]

What would happen if a piston ring was put on upside down.

[flyinlow]

O PSI...assuming it was a good test  You have a hole in the combustion camber.  Valve stuck open, hole in a piston, broken head , head gasket blown or a broken block.

Hopefully a push rod issue.     compressed air will tell you a lot.

[timmycharger]

What would happen if a piston ring was put on upside down.

I would be extremely pissed and a little embarrassed 

[timmycharger]

O PSI...assuming it was a good test  You have a hole in the combustion camber.  Valve stuck open, hole in a piston, broken head , head gasket blown or a broken block.

Hopefully a push rod issue.     compressed air will tell you a lot.

Agreed. What sucks is that I can't get to it until this upcoming Tuesday night.  Until then I can't help myself from guessing and obsessing over it.       

[timmycharger]

We put air in the cylinder and couldn't hear anything out of the carb or tailpipe, or out of the valve covers.

Used the remote starter and watched the rockers only to see the exhaust rocker move up and down on that cylinder.

Pulled the intake and lifters and one of them was toast. The cam is wasted on that lobe as well.

What is confusing to me is the noise was there from startup but I changed rockers, lifters, pushrods a few times, adjusting the valves so I don't know how I missed that rocker not moving like the others. I re used this cam from prior to the refresh, maybe it had an issue then and slowly was getting worse? This lifter is not a Mopar one that originally came with the cam. I put a set of comp cam lifters thinking that was my noise.

I'm sure the internet will explode when I just do a cam swap without pulling the motor to be hot tanked and rebuilt due to the shavings and metal. I just did the oil pan on this a few months ago and I didn't see anything concerning on the magnet, same from when I did the oil change before that. 

I plan on changing the oil after the install then again after break in. I'll check the cam bearings while I have it out.  This motor was always a just for now while I have my dream motor built, otherwise I would have done more than just a re ring and bearing. If it dies after 2k miles then so be it, it will make a good platform for another build.

[metallicareload99]

I think that's relatively, a much better situation to be in. I had a similar thing happen, only with a exhaust lifter. I didn't pull the motor. I put in a Lunati 60303, broke it in and changed the oil put at least 20,000+ more miles on it after    Until I had the aforementioned piston/compression problems

[timmycharger]

Good to know. I plan to pull the oil pump off to have s look in there as well. 

[BLK 68 R/T]

I think the problem may have been new lifters on an old cam. I've read and heard stories about avoiding doing that with anything but roller cams. I would also check the lifter bore and make sure the new lifters are able to rotate properly before buttoning it back up.

[68CoronetRT]

Sucks to hear, but atleast you figured it out. I too did an old cam with new lifters and never had an issue.

[c00nhunterjoe]

Did you break in the lifters with light springs? Pop a main and rod cap off when the pan is down. Change the oil and filter several times in a row if you are not pulling it. 50/50 shot it will live.

[timmycharger]

I was worried about using new lifters with an old cam so I made sure to lube everything well but I guess it didnt matter. 

I didnt use lighter springs for the break in. Figured the stock edelbrock springs were not that stiff. 

[timmycharger]

Time to order a new cam for this engine.  I have been looking online for the last few days and I think I have my choice narrowed down to the Lunati Voodoo 60303 cam.  I am looking for something with similar performance to the Mopar 284/484 cam but with better street manners.

My 440 is basically a stock six pack bottom end with stock Edelbrock heads, Hughes 1.6 rockers and TTI 2 inch headers.  I will get the matching valve springs for this cam. 




Hydraulic Flat Tappet. This high performance street cam likes 2400 RPM stall, 800 CFM carb, dual plane intake and headers. Makes un- equaled power to 6200 RPM with proper valve springs.
•Advertised Duration (Int/Exh): 268/276
•Duration @ .050 (Int/Exh): 226/234
•Gross Valve Lift (Int/Exh): .494/.513
•LSA/ICL: 110/106
•Valve Lash (Int/Exh): Hyd/Hyd
•RPM Range: 1800-6200
•Includes: Cam Only


Part Number: 10230703
Previous Part Number: 60303

[PRH]

I'd expect that cam would really perk up the cranking compression numbers over the 484 cam.

[timmycharger]

The tech I spoke to at Lunati felt that this cam was a good choice for my engine/car.  I ended up getting the cam, lifters and valve springs from them but had to buy a three bolt timing chain set to match the cam.

Lunati recommended removing the inner valve springs on the heads for the break in period but I didn't ask him about what additives or oils to use. 

Can anyone recommend what oil I should use for the cam break in? regular oil with additive or special break in oil?

[BLK 68 R/T]

Here is what I would use for break in oil. Then after break in make sure to run a good FT friendly oil with lots of ZDDP.

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/bpo-71206

[69wannabe]

Them eddy springs must be pretty strong, I had a 440 years back that I got stuck with from another mechanic ghat had ate 3 cams when it came to me. I just had to pull it and start from scratch basically. It had the six pack pistons and eddy heads and the 484 mopar shaft with the 114 CL for better drivability but it had ate three of these cams so far. Turns out the springs were way too much for that cam. Got another 484 cam and recommended springs and cleaned and freshened up the bottom and all was well after I got it back up and going. There are ZDDP additives that you can purchase or just run the oil with the Zddp already in it. There are several break in oils out there with the zddp in it but locally the oreillys sells valvoline VR1 20w50 which is what I run in my 493 ci. When you get it back together and start it up don't let it idle low for the first 20 min's. 1200 to 1500 rpms will break the cam and lifters in and then you can idle it down from there. Then after it runs another 10 to 20 mins drain that oil out and do an oil and filter change and do the same zddp oil again. Got to have oil with the zinc in it or it will eat the cam again. I also learned this the hard way.....

[PRH]

Just a little "FYI/fwiw"........

The MP "933" hemi spring, which is what MP recommended for the 474/484/509 cams, is a much higher rate spring than what Edelbrock equips the std RPM/E Street heads with.

If you buy the heads with the "hydraulic roller" option, they come with dual springs, and those are quite stiff.

For most hyd flat tappet applications, and even the milder solid flat tappet applications, I use the springs/retainers/locks/seals that come on the heads.

[69wannabe]

Just a little "FYI/fwiw"........

The MP "933" hemi spring, which is what MP recommended for the 474/484/509 cams, is a much higher rate spring than what Edelbrock equips the std RPM/E Street heads with.

If you buy the heads with the "hydraulic roller" option, they come with dual springs, and those are quite stiff.

For most hyd flat tappet applications, and even the milder solid flat tappet applications, I use the springs/retainers/locks/seals that come on the heads.

I'm not sure what springs were on that set of heads, I took them to the machine shop and he said they were pretty stiff springs for just a 484 lift cam so he swapped them for some 500 lift valve springs. I am not sure if that was the problem with this engine or not but it didn't have any valve train trouble after that but who know if they were using any zddp in the engine or if they were breaking the cam in properly.

[timmycharger]

Thanks guys, I read also that I would be ok with the Eddy springs but I ended up picking up the springs from Lunati that are matched for this cam (60303).

I will pick up 6 quarts of the break in oil, appreciate the link.

[flyinlow]

Not what I would have guessed . but I glad you figured it out.

I would be tempted to pull the oil pump off and inspect the rotors. If you don't tear down , I would do an extra oil/filter change after a couple hundred miles.
.

[flyinlow]

I have the 60303 cam in my 440 with Edelbrock heads and Comp rockers. Nice mild street cam and has gone almost 50K. miles so far.

[timmycharger]

Yes, I plan on pulling off that pump and having a look and changing the oil early as you suggest. 

Good to know about your combo. Did you run the stock springs? I am finding out that some folks had no problems with the stock Edelbrock springs but I ended up going with the Lunati ones.

[flyinlow]

Yes , use the stock Eddy springs. Broke the engine in with them also. Thought about beehive springs.

[timmycharger]

I drained the fluids and am in the process of cleaning everything for the installation of the new cam.  All the gaskets and parts have arrived including 6 quarts of break in oil and a bottle of break in additive as well.  

The oil drain plug magnet had zero metal on it that I could see, so I cut open the oil filter and didn't see anything in there either. I am not going to pull the oil pump at this point as I do not see anything in the oil that concerns me.  I pulled out the old cam and aside from the one wasted lobe, I see a few others that look suspect  .  

Time to finish cleaning the surfaces and will put the new one in hopefully this weekend.  I then need to install the new valve springs (outers for the break in) and check the pushrod length.