What can a carb do for you?

[69wannabe]

I had more cold start issues with the Fi tech than I ever had with my carburetor. I removed the choke flap on it too so there is no choke at all and it still starts up and runs fine quickly. Not a debate really, I just prefer my trusty old carburetor to an aftermarket EFI system that didn't seem to be reliable to me. I'm sure they are working on improving them as we speak but the carb I have on there make's me smile when the back two barrel's open up and I can feel the secondaries open up and really let the engine come to life. I have always been a carb guy anyway, I have rebuilt Q-jets, carter AFB's and AVS's and the edelbrocks, and holley's of all description and usually can get them running really good. Just something I have always been into and I wasn't scared to try something new like the EFI set up but after it didn't perform like I expected then I was back to what I knew best. I called the tech line about 235467564 times    and really didn't get any answers to my questions except for try this setting or try that setting. None of which made any difference when I changed the settings. At least if I turn a screw on the carburetor it will respond to an adjustment.

[John_Kunkel]

But the point is still made that a carb can offer trouble free fun

And riding a horse can be a lot of fun.

Someday, if I'm feeling really insecure about my choices, I'll start a thread titled "What EFI can do for you".

[Brass]

This is a forum for discussion and I think it's fair to make a case for how well carbs perform compared to EFI.  As someone who has been back and forth on this, I appreciate the insights.  EFI continues to improve and I'll probably switch to it at some point.  Even so, a sorted carb still performs well and is still a reasonable thing to stick with.  Especially considering the cost difference and the initial set up requirements of EFI.  But mileage may vary and to each his own. 

[c00nhunterjoe]

But the point is still made that a carb can offer trouble free fun

And riding a horse can be a lot of fun.

Someday, if I'm feeling really insecure about my choices, I'll start a thread titled "What EFI can do for you".

I am feeling pretty down in the dumps at how crappy my dinosaur runs.  In the meantime, im going to go ride my pony into market and get some fixins for supper.

[alfaitalia]

Lol....Ill admit that I had to look "fixins" up!

[69wannabe]

LOL, i'm not saying that EFI isn't a good thing but it wasn't for my taste. I like carburetors and I know how to operate fine with them. Everything has it's pro's and con's and for me the carb had more pro's than con's compared to the Fi tech. If you are having good luck with EFI then that's awesome and i'm glad it's working for you and if your old school and like your trusty old carb then I can relate to that a little bit better. It all comes down to preference and I prefer my holley carb.......

[440]

I must say I am enjoying this thread...

[c00nhunterjoe]

Me too. And for the record, i have no quarrels with john. Nothing but respect for the man.

[Paul G]

Tuning?

Is getting a carb in good tune easy? Nope. Is getting an FI system in good tune easy? Nope. Is tuning either easy if you are good at it? Yep!

Which is easier to tune on a mostly stock engine?

Which is easier to tune on a cammed up modified street hot rod engine?

Which will give better performance and economy with a basic tune?

Which will give better performance and economy with the right tune?

If you were building a hot rod for a customer who doesn't wrench on cars and wanted a classic with good manners and able to go on trips, trouble free, makes good power, good economy, turn the key and go in any weather, which would you choose to install and tune on his car, FI or carb?

[cdr]

Tuning?

Is getting a carb in good tune easy? Nope. Is getting an FI system in good tune easy? Nope. Is tuning either easy if you are good at it? Yep!

Which is easier to tune on a mostly stock engine?

Which is easier to tune on a cammed up modified street hot rod engine?

Which will give better performance and economy with a basic tune?

Which will give better performance and economy with the right tune?

If you were building a hot rod for a customer who doesn't wrench on cars and wanted a classic with good manners and able to go on trips, trouble free, makes good power, good economy, turn the key and go in any weather, which would you choose to install and tune on his car, FI or carb?

Before ethanol fuel a carb worked great, the fuel we have down here is not carb friendly , so I would have to say EFI. I know this to be a fact on the fuel issues, Buc ee's was selling Non ethanol 92 fuel, got my Charger dialed in running great, they quit selling it, & now getting the tune to work when it is hot is almost impossible, but I am also VERY picky on my tune up. 

[Paul G]

I am with you on that CDR. Seems like I have to tweek the Holley at every change of season. I to am picky, too picky in most cases.

Let the car sit for a couple weeks and the float bowls are dry. I can smell fuel around the engine compartment. It is just part of the carb generation. 

I helped a friend install a Terminator system on his 71 Challenger. During start up the thing kept running worse. It was a bear till we figured out the TPS died. Holley was quick to send out another TPS. Car runs pretty good. I would not be happy with it as it is right now. But he is because he is not as picky as me and doesnt care to dive in to the system and tweek it to perfection like I would.

Self learn is great, but you have to give it some parameters and a target to achieve. Get those wrong and the system will be crap. 

Another friend has a  70 RR 426 Hemi with a new crate engine. Started with a Holley 850 true double pumper. Didnt like how it was running. Felt it should have more power. I suggested he take it to a tuner and get it dialed in. That means carb and ignition. Instead he put an Edelbrock EFI on it. Then removed the EFI because he had nothing but trouble. He eventually put a holley 750 on it. He says it runs pretty good now. He hates the EFI, hated the Holley 850. But he didnt tune either of them. I think the 750 vacuum secondary carb being smaller is why he feels it runs better.

[c00nhunterjoe]

Weird. Even a bone stock 426 hemi should run better with the 850. Elephants are hungry.

[John_Kunkel]

"Runs better" is a judgment call depending on driving style; of course, the 850 should run better at WOT but for cruising the 750 will have better throttle response and general drivability.

[c00nhunterjoe]

In my experience the hemis responded better overall with more carb. Theyve got compression, cam and heads from the factory. Hell, they run great with the 2 4 setup in stock form. We are not talking about motorhome slugged 440s in this case.

[69wannabe]

The crate 426 hemi's are not really built crazy IMO, they are only like 9.0 on compression and the cam seems pretty mild if I remember the spec's correctly. The recommended carb was a 750 vacuum secondary I think. If the engine was a bit more aggressively built the 850 would be a better choice. I know it's a hemi but still it's only 426 cubic inches. I have an 850 holley on my 493 ci and it seems to work really good on there. Some minor jetting and a couple of bigger pump squirters and it seems to be dialed in pretty good. I have seen other 500 inch builds with 950's on them and that's fine if they run good that way. If it works good then it work's for me doesn't matter if it's a good carb or Efi. My experience so far is the carb responds better for me, maybe I didn't give the Fi tech a chance and i'm sure if I wanted to spend another 1000 bucks on an in tank fuel pump then it would have worked out better but that wasn't my original plan so back to the carb it was for me.

[flyinlow]

What can a carb do for you?

Well , they can get me down the road for tens of thousands of miles or track ,1/4 at a time. I have had a Themoquad, an Eddy 800, a Street Avenger 770 and a Quickfuel 780 They all made good power. They all had some drivability issues. Not enough accelerator pump with the Carters and seasonal retuning with the Holleys. Certainly not issues enough to spend $2000 dollars and lots of time changing things. So why did I switch to EFI?  Am I crazy?.... That goes without saying.

I wanted to learn something new. This has forced me to  learn the ways of the electron, the ECU and the sensor. Not just my scanner said this, youtube said this, so change this part to make the check engine light go away.

Now I have some idea what a KPA, IAC and a 3x3 matrix is. If I wanted simple I would have gone Chevy (do have a Z28) , but I'm Mopar.

Is EFI the greatest thing I have done to the car? Not even close. That aluminum headed 440 I built and installing an  overdrive transmission where number one and two. EFI might be number three. Time will tell. Two hobby car seasons and about 8000 miles so far. A few tuning issues, but it is pretty good and getting better  

[darbgnik]

Well, I'll wade into this one a little bit. With a caveat, I didn't want the EFI for max performance.

Being 39 years old, I grew up with computers, and my first vehicle was fuel injected, so was my first motorcycle. Come to think of it, every vehicle I've ever owned was fuel injected. This put my carb experience at a nice even zero when I bought my Charger. It was a running/driving car, and a decent 10 footer at the time. A couple pumps and a light foot on the accelerator were all it took to start it. Throttle response wasn't that good, WOT was fine-ish, and it would vapor lock on hot starts. And the garage would stink of gas for a couple days after parking it. All pretty much par for the course for an old car in a less than stellar state of tune.

The smell of gas alone was all the reason I needed for ditching the carb(I have more expensive cars, whose interiors share the same airspace as the Charger). I also have basically zero interest in learning how to troubleshoot/tune/rebuild a carb. My Dad could do all those things, but he is no longer here.....

Feel free to take a couple stabs at my man card for not caring to ever pick at a carburetor, won't bother me. But I assume the others' like me are a major customer stream for FI purveyors?

[c00nhunterjoe]

Well, I'll wade into this one a little bit. With a caveat, I didn't want the EFI for max performance.

Being 39 years old, I grew up with computers, and my first vehicle was fuel injected, so was my first motorcycle. Come to think of it, every vehicle I've ever owned was fuel injected. This put my carb experience at a nice even zero when I bought my Charger. It was a running/driving car, and a decent 10 footer at the time. A couple pumps and a light foot on the accelerator were all it took to start it. Throttle response wasn't that good, WOT was fine-ish, and it would vapor lock on hot starts. And the garage would stink of gas for a couple days after parking it. All pretty much par for the course for an old car in a less than stellar state of tune.

The smell of gas alone was all the reason I needed for ditching the carb(I have more expensive cars, whose interiors share the same airspace as the Charger). I also have basically zero interest in learning how to troubleshoot/tune/rebuild a carb. My Dad could do all those things, but he is no longer here.....

Feel free to take a couple stabs at my man card for not caring to ever pick at a carburetor, won't bother me. But I assume the others' like me are a major customer stream for FI purveyors?

No need to revoke man cards. That was not the point of the thread. The bantor between myself and john is all in good fun. I have nothing but respect for the man. As to your reason for swapping to fuel injection- of course. It makes sense. You had little knowledge of carbs and did not care to learn them. Why would you keep a carb'd engine then? It fit your bill and there is nothing wrong with that.
  I still havnt figured out the gas smell in the garage bit. I have 4 cars in the garage, 2 race cars, 1 street strip, and one all origonal car, and there is 0 odor of fuel in there.

[darbgnik]

No need to revoke man cards. That was not the point of the thread. The bantor between myself and john is all in good fun. I have nothing but respect for the man. As to your reason for swapping to fuel injection- of course. It makes sense. You had little knowledge of carbs and did not care to learn them. Why would you keep a carb'd engine then? It fit your bill and there is nothing wrong with that.
  I still havnt figured out the gas smell in the garage bit. I have 4 cars in the garage, 2 race cars, 1 street strip, and one all origonal car, and there is 0 odor of fuel in there.

Admittedly, I don't know why, but assumed it was whatever amount of fuel left in the carb upon shutdown, evaporating?

[John_Kunkel]

In my experience the hemis responded better overall with more carb.

Responded at WOT or just driving around? Every time I've changed to a smaller carb I notice improved response in normal driving.

[c00nhunterjoe]

In my experience the hemis responded better overall with more carb.

Responded at WOT or just driving around? Every time I've changed to a smaller carb I notice improved response in normal driving.

Overall. Same goes with my max wedge. The carbs are quick and crisp on it. Took ALOT of fine tuning to get them there with the crossram. And in that case, a big single carb would actually make more hp then the crossram, thats a proven fact on the dyno and track. Now again, apples to oranges in some case comparisons as i have alot more compression then most guys on here do and the overall package is different but it works extremely well and as a factory car, it gets the wow factor and still turns impressive times being stock parts.
   

[Back N Black]

No need to revoke man cards. That was not the point of the thread. The bantor between myself and john is all in good fun. I have nothing but respect for the man. As to your reason for swapping to fuel injection- of course. It makes sense. You had little knowledge of carbs and did not care to learn them. Why would you keep a carb'd engine then? It fit your bill and there is nothing wrong with that.
  I still havnt figured out the gas smell in the garage bit. I have 4 cars in the garage, 2 race cars, 1 street strip, and one all origonal car, and there is 0 odor of fuel in there.

Admittedly, I don't know why, but assumed it was whatever amount of fuel left in the carb upon shutdown, evaporating?

Your comparing a bad performing carb with a new FI system, so your going to see a major improvement. If you had a well tuned carb with no driveability issues the difference would not be that great. My 850 double pumper starts runs like a FI system, AFAIC. No gas smell when its parked in the garage, the only smell after a drive is the smell of rubber. I'm not saying FI is not a good system but a carb is not all that bad either.

[Challenger340]

Nothing against F.I., go for it if you have the time to install/modify fuel lines and can afford it.

For the most part the F.I. systems run great, and the power losses going to F.I. from a Carb are minimal (meaning you won't feel the power loss in seat of pants)

That said,
NOTHING wrong with a well tuned/working Carburator, which I think is the main problem for so many ?  who then believe "no such thing" exists ?  I've seen LOTS of complaints here on this site about poor starting/running Carbs.

From personal experience,
I think the factory Carburetor setups were really good, ran well, and were basically trouble free.
Our 69 R/T is still such a bone stock setup complete with 4618S AVS 750 cfm Carb, and being original unrestored/un-rebuilt it is best left "as-is".

I can let the Charger sit 3 months, crank it for 10 seconds to get the fuel up again, then pump the gas pedal a few times to set the Choke and prime it, Crank again and away it goes on high idle(1700-1900 rpm)..... run a few minutes and lightly tap the pedal down to a "medium" idle(1,000-1,100 rpm), let it run there until warmed into operating range(5-7 minutes), tap the pedal again and it idles down "ready to go".
Subsequent restarts throughout the day require nothing !  I can reach in through the window(no pedal) and turn the key even 3 hours later, 1/2 a crank and vroom, fires right away.... away it goes all by itself. 

I've shown guys this starting characteristic at a few show-n-shines after sitting for hours, met with absolute dis-belief and head scratching, and at the last Mopar "only" show I had a crowd of guys come back about an hour later with their friends in tow calling BS for another "demo".
I could have made money on that bet easy-peasy.... because like I said only 1 hr later I don't think it was even 1/2 a crank.... vroom.
Granted, It takes a couple of seconds for the idle to stabilize itself again, but the fact remains no operator imput req'd except give the key a quick turn, by leaning in the window while standing outside.(but easier now as an old fart to SIT in the Car with my feet left outside)
I have found on the AVS Carb, that moving the accelerator pump arm to the middle hole as best responsiveness devoid of any bog outa the hole(a little extra squirt), except on cooler days below 50* F where some quick stabbing for extra fuel is best if the tires hold from a stop.(no spin)

[flyinlow]

Nothing against F.I., go for it if you have the time to install/modify fuel lines and can afford it.

I think the people raving about how their engines never ran so great as it did with simply bolting on EFI and letting it self learn did not have  their carb and ignition tuned  very well before they switched.

The cold start advantage of EFI is only once a day for about 30 seconds. Unfortunately I only drive the Charger about 100 days a year if I am lucky. An electric boost pump can refill you carb after sitting for a few days and does not need to be run the rest of the time. ( OK , turn it on at the drag strip and Nascar track)

My Quickfuel carb required only minor tuning out of the box. Combined with an air/fuel ratio gauge you can keep a pretty good eye on it.

The EFI's  dash board mounted  inside the car and its ability to data log are great tuning bonuses. I am still learning them , but beats trying to get spark plugs out of a hot  engine with headers or having someone ride along to watch the A/F ratio gauge going 100 mph.

My Father yelled at me more than once for fixing something that was not broke. If he was around today I would probably not tell him I put EFI on the Charger.

[c00nhunterjoe]

Buy a good set of headers and plug changes are easy. I can get all of the plugs out hot in a matter of minutes and mine are 2 1/8 primary tubes.