What can a carb do for you?

[c00nhunterjoe]

The TBI made more power, but to be fair, I don't believe the carb was anywhere near peak tune.

So, the discussion goes full circle. Even if the carb did make a few more horses, what it takes to get it to "peak tune" compared to the TBI is noteworthy.

Still havnt shown me where tbi is "better". My carb fires right up without a choke, it is at optimum tuning and didnt take anymore time to get there then tbi with a laptop. No laptops required. No downloads. Just a screwdriver is all i needed.  I have less electronic parts and less to go wrong. And noteworthy is the money i didnt spend on fuel injection. Used carb- 100 bucks. Overhaul kit- 40 bucks. Done. Runs 10s on tire and cruises anywhere i want. No bogs no coughs no hesitation. Crisper throttle then any tbi out there. The cost for tbi isnt worth it to me over a good carb. The "gains" do not outweigh the cost. And its not just my "race" 440. My wifes 72 nova is a stock low compression 350. It runs the same as far as response and starting. Its not rocket science.
What is noteworthy is what "peak tune" on a fuel injection. While they are self learning, it is only to a point. You still need to write your own programs when a modified car is on the table. Been there done that. The can tunes are not going to give you maximum of anything. If you have not purchased the software to write your own programs, then you are not utilizing your fuel injection to its maximum potential either, even throttle body.

[440]

The thing that worries me with electronics is the increasing monitoring by 3rd parties.

It's only a matter of time till everyone has something plugged into their OBD port to monitor their driving. Insurance companies already have a "black box" they plug into users cars to monitor their policy holders, and from what I've read following serious crashes they are able to dowload data from your car.

No thanks !!

If something goes wrong with TBI your usually left stranded and getting home on a tow truck. Carbs you can usually limp back home.

I'll sick to my dumb technology

[dual fours]

I wonder how come NASCAR must use a carbureted engine?

[c00nhunterjoe]

The thing that worries me with electronics is the increasing monitoring by 3rd parties.

It's only a matter of time till everyone has something plugged into their OBD port to monitor their driving. Insurance companies already have a "black box" they plug into users cars to monitor their policy holders, and from what I've read following serious crashes they are able to dowload data from your car.

No thanks !!

If something goes wrong with TBI your usually left stranded and getting home on a tow truck. Carbs you can usually limp back home.

I'll sick to my dumb technology

Onstar has had that capability for years.

[303 Mopar]

I wonder how come NASCAR must use a carbureted engine?

And yet Pro Stock converted to EFI 2 years ago.....

[c00nhunterjoe]

I wonder how come NASCAR must use a carbureted engine?

And yet Pro Stock converted to EFI 2 years ago.....

Prostock is dying. Nhra in general is dying. The prostock move to injection along with other rule changes was corporate ploy to try and bring back the old days of prostock's fanbase. It did nothing other then piss off the teams. Funny you brought it up as they all want to go back to carbs.... but it really has nothing to do with this conversation

[John_Kunkel]

Still havnt shown me where tbi is "better".

Of course not, it's call being "bullheaded".

[c00nhunterjoe]

Still havnt shown me where tbi is "better".

Of course not, it's call being "bullheaded".

Not following. My carb does everything your tbi does, is simpler, and cost less. While your tbi may hold a fractional margin of advantage with efficiency, there are not any i will see in day to day use. Those who claim big mpg gains and big dyno gains had a royaly screwed up setup to start with. Kind of like k&n claiming 20 hp gains by just dropping in an air filter element on a honda civic..... My 92 5.0 mustang picked up 3 mph and almost 4 tenths in the 1/4 going from a tuned multiport injection to a carb setup. I had a big cam, ported trickflow heads, 24lb injectors, mass air, throttle body, ported gt40 intakes. You name it, i had it. Just couldnt get more out of it. Changed chips and tunes, spent a fortune on programs, and yep, it had self learn abilities with several fuel and spark tables to go through..... dropped a victor intake, 750 holley, holley blue pump, and done. Picked up all over the track data. Car was no slouch injected by any means. A 10 second daily driver is impressive back then. But the gains going carb'd with no disadvantages was better. It got faster, i saw no change in economy. With 4.56s and a t5 i still got just over 20mpg on the highway and ran 93 octane. I threw the stock cats on it and it passed tailpipe emissions every year as well.
   

[alfaitalia]

Well if you don't TBI think offers you any gains.....how about this! https://www.summitracing.com/parts/edl-35920. Looks pretty good value too.....if its any good.

In this thread there seem to just be two types. Those who welcome change and improvements it brings....and like it or not a TBI will offer improvements in drivability, economy, emissions etc etc.....and those who like the tradition of a carb. (I have car engines with both to be clear.....but my Charger cannot run a carb) Those folks arguments don't seem to not stack up so good and seem to be mostly emotive rather than factual. I think that Joe would put up a good reason to have a carb even if a TBI dyno chart showed a 50 horse gain throughout the range and got 40 to the gallon!!! The one unavoidable fact is that a carb CANNOT meter fuel as accurately as FI over the full rev range. I'm not saying your (or whoever's) carb does not run well....but there will be improvements to be had somewhere with TBI. Obviously the average guy....so perhaps someone without CHJ or others carb expertise.....will always get a bigger improvement from TBI than the "experts"....as they would not have had the skill to set up there old carb as well as you guys.....but that's surely the point....most don't have that skill these days.....so a near plug and play TBI system is going to appeal to the masses.....and in all probability they will gain a noticeable improvement.

[Kern Dog]

For me, I live in a place with moderate humidity. It rarely gets over 40% here. It also rarely gets below 30 degrees. My carbureted car runs fine in cold weather once it reaches operating temperature. I've driven in 106 degree weather and it restarts fine. The advantages to me would be fuel economy and it would take me a LONG time to earn that back when I only drive this car about 1000-1500 miles per year.

[c00nhunterjoe]

Well if you don't TBI think offers you any gains.....how about this! https://www.summitracing.com/parts/edl-35920. Looks pretty good value too.....if its any good.

In this thread there seem to just be two types. Those who welcome change and improvements it brings....and like it or not a TBI will offer improvements in drivability, economy, emissions etc etc.....and those who like the tradition of a carb. (I have car engines with both to be clear.....but my Charger cannot run a carb) Those folks arguments don't seem to not stack up so good and seem to be mostly emotive rather than factual. I think that Joe would put up a good reason to have a carb even if a TBI dyno chart showed a 50 horse gain throughout the range and got 40 to the gallon!!! The one unavoidable fact is that a carb CANNOT meter fuel as accurately as FI over the full rev range. I'm not saying your (or whoever's) carb does not run well....but there will be improvements to be had somewhere with TBI. Obviously the average guy....so perhaps someone without CHJ or others carb expertise.....will always get a bigger improvement from TBI than the "experts"....as they would not have had the skill to set up there old carb as well as you guys.....but that's surely the point....most don't have that skill these days.....so a near plug and play TBI system is going to appeal to the masses.....and in all probability they will gain a noticeable improvement.

Im all about improvements. Traditional? Have you seen my car? Lmao. I tune injected cars and have had plenty of my own. The point is cost versus gains on mild street cars. You just said it yourself, those who see noticeable gains, had a screwed up system to start with by butchering it themselves. A 50 hp gain by bolting a throttle body on? Please. Maybe with 2 plug wires unhooked on the carbd dyno. Never said efi wasnt more efficient. Just not worth the money for the gains you may or may not see. The link you just posted is 2,000 dollars and it includes no parts of the fuel system. So 3 grand for what? 1 mpg at best fuel economy? Is 3 grand worth that to you? If so, great. But to say my arguement for a correctly tuned carb is not factual shows your bias.

[John_Kunkel]

Not following. My carb does everything your tbi does, is simpler, and cost less.

You're the one who started this thread to crow about how great your carb is and now you seem to be upset because not everybody worships at the altar of the carburetor.

You claim "My carb fires right up without a choke, it is at optimum tuning" but those two claims are at odds. It's well known that cold fuel doesn't atomize very well and therefore causes a lean mixture which needs to be enriched with a choke to run properly. If your car fires right up without a choke, then the mixture has to be overly rich which doesn't equate to "optimal tuning" or your car defies the laws of physics.

[c00nhunterjoe]

Not following. My carb does everything your tbi does, is simpler, and cost less.

You're the one who started this thread to crow about how great your carb is and now you seem to be upset because not everybody worships at the altar of the carburetor.

You claim "My carb fires right up without a choke, it is at optimum tuning" but those two claims are at odds. It's well known that cold fuel doesn't atomize very well and therefore causes a lean mixture which needs to be enriched with a choke to run properly. If your car fires right up without a choke, then the mixture has to be overly rich which doesn't equate to "optimal tuning" or your car defies the laws of physics.

Upset? Not hardly. Yes, it is tuned properly. What do you want, plug readings? It will fire right upl, It will not idle on its own at 1st as i clearly showed in the video in the 1st post. Most street cars have a choke plate so that is irrelevant. But in my case, is 45 seconds of run time before it will idle really worth a 3,000 dollar investment in fuel injection? Not to me considering the cam has more duration at half then most guys at advertised.  My carb is no different then anybody elses. They are what you make them, just like your beloved throttle body. Plenty of problems with them as well with owners who dont know what they are doing.

[440]

Oranges have lots of vitamin C, and, when I look at the chart of vitamin-rich fruit, apples aren't even on there.  

An apple a day keeps the doctor away, oranges won't.

Oranges have to be peeled to eat, apples dont.

Apples have more fiber than oranges.

[c00nhunterjoe]

 

[John_Kunkel]

It will fire right upl, It will not idle on its own at 1st.

Uh-huh.    Mine idles from the gitgo.

My carb is no different then anybody elses.

Wrong, it's tuned by you which makes it kinda special.  

They are what you make them, just like your beloved throttle body.

Except I tune mine from the drivers seat, no laptop, just a controller that fits in a shirt pocket and cost nowhere near $3K.

[c00nhunterjoe]

Mine doesnt idle right away because it has no choke plate. If i had a plate on mine, it would idle. But it does idle in a minutes time. By the time i fire it up, back it out and the garage and up the driveway to the house, its idling on its own. I see no need to convert based on that. I knowingly installed a carb without a choke. It is not an issue for me.
   There is nothing special about me or my carb john. Its not hard to set them up and you are well aware of that. If a person cant handle popping a bowel off to change jets or swap an accelerator pump squirter then so be it. But the tbi doesnt install itself so you still have to get dirty under the hood and hook up fuel lines before you fire up your handheld device. Can tunes that come with it will not give you an optimum performance either. The adaptives built in cannot possibly have enough storage to have fuel tables for every combo.

[John_Kunkel]

Pardon me for assuming that when you said "starts right up" you meant starts right up and idles without nursing the throttle.

Shucks, you could throw the carb in the trash and pour gas from a Coke bottle down the manifold and it would "start right up" and run 'til the Coke bottle goes dry.

It's pretty obvious that you'll go to extremes to rationalize the use of a device that's one step above the Coke bottle so enjoy your horse and buggy.

[c00nhunterjoe]

Pardon me for assuming that when you said "starts right up" you meant starts right up and idles without nursing the throttle.

Shucks, you could throw the carb in the trash and pour gas from a Coke bottle down the manifold and it would "start right up" and run 'til the Coke bottle goes dry.

It's pretty obvious that you'll go to extremes to rationalize the use of a device that's one step above the Coke bottle so enjoy your horse and buggy.

Unless you have cut the body off of your cars and stuck them on a modern chassis, you are no better then I. Priding yourself on 1970s fuel injection technology is also no better seeing as its nothing more then an electric coke bottle.

[Kern Dog]

Now THAT is funny...!

[Challenger340]

Anytime I restart mine when hot without touching the gas, or within up to about an hour, it starts right away(not even 1/2 a crank), and although can be a little iffy for 20-30 seconds, it will stay running and eventually come up to idle speed.
IMO, Pretty good for a 50 year old Engine(UN-rebuilt) and original Carb(rebuilt).
just say'in....
FI doesn't have a exclusive lock on starting and running without touching the Pedal, lotsa Carb deals will as well when setup properly and the Throttle Shafts aren't buggered, although granted probably not as well idling right away as FI.

If I want a good Idle right away after starting asap from my Carb, all I have to do is just "touch" the pedal for a second = stabilized right away.

[69wannabe]

It's not the one's who like EFI and the one's sticking to their outdated carburetor's. I tried the EFI on my charger for three months I fought with no start cold issues and high idle issues and other issues that I wasn't having with my old trusty carburetor. After $1500 bucks of nothing I decided to go back to my old trusty carb. I can start my charger after it sits with three pumps of the pedal and it comes to life quickly. I have no choke on mine so after it starts I treat it like it has a fast idle and hold the rpm's up between 1200 and 1500 rpms for maybe 30 to 40 seconds and after that it will idle on it's on just fine. No other surprises and and it runs the same every time I drive it. I just don't see spending upwards of 2 grand for basically something you have to fight with when the carburetor is already there and most of the time it works just fine. It's not a daylight and dark difference to me. I am entitled to my opinion and I am and always will be an old carb guy when it comes to my charger. Now my late model jeeps are all fuel injected but that is how they came and most of the time they work well but for my old car the carburetor is king over EFI.

[c00nhunterjoe]

This has been twisted into a carb vs tbi debate and that was not the intention. I have never said that a carb was better then efi. I have clearly said that it is not worth the money to convert a carb to tbi for limited gains. The whole point was to show those who think carbs wont start easy and are not crisp that if you set them up, they are great. Those who are arguing about it, have plenty of great knowledge and already know that. A properly tuned carb will be crisp and reliable and does not require constant changing. Is a tbi a littler more accurate- of course. But not that you are going to notice in seat o pants meters and the dyno will almost always lean to the carb in max power.

[John_Kunkel]

The whole point was to show those who think carbs wont start easy and are not crisp that if you set them up, they are great.

Once again your idea of "starts easy" differs from some of us. 

[c00nhunterjoe]

The whole point was to show those who think carbs wont start easy and are not crisp that if you set them up, they are great.

Once again your idea of "starts easy" differs from some of us. 

Again john, we all know i have no choke plate on my car. I went for max horsepower. Yet regardless of that it will fire after sitting a month within 2 crank revolutions cold. Once warmed up it doesnt even make a turn and fires off and idles. How much easier does it need to start? I guarantee i would lose hp putting a throttle body on it. And to gain what? 30 seconds sooner that i can take my foot off the throttle? How many of you actually fire your car up cold and take off before letting the oil warm up some? I can start mine up, drop it in gear and drive off if i wanted to but i prefer to let the oil pressure come down some before heading up the road making a pass with the needle buried. Ive also said before as well, i have other more tame street cars with choke plates. They fire right up and will idle on their own immediatly on the stock style chokes. Now are the tailpipe emmisions as clean as with a throttle body? Of course not. So if you want to go all prius on me, have at it with your tbi. But the point is still made that a carb can offer trouble free fun and shows those guys that are having problems with their carbs that they can and do work.