What can a carb do for you?

[c00nhunterjoe]

After all of the "fuel injection is the only way" posts, and a few budlights.... ive decided to poke the bear. 1 saturday. Thats it, 1 day is all it takes to set a carb up. I will put my shit old setup up against any of your throttle body injections for cold starts, performance, and throttle response. I dont even have a big stroker.  Its just a stupid old thrown together 440 with a bunch of washed up race car parts slapped together. After measuring, its more of an 11:1 motor, with a solid roller 750 lift 325 advertised cam, ridiculous max wedge port heads and a ported indy intake topped with a 950 holley. Shouldnt run worth a crap according to most, but here she is. Hasnt run since my wedding in april due to all the rain. Its in the 60s here right now. Videos are back to back before the temp gauge even starts to move. Who wants to go for a low 10 second ride and tell me tbi is the way to go?
J
https://youtu.be/8_iBJxN8tBo
https://youtu.be/uzYu3XcD4Ys
https://youtu.be/WPaNalU_-uA

[John_Kunkel]

Some folks still swear by these too.

[justcruisin]

Im' a carb guy, old school rides need old school fuel delivery - well at least that's my take. However, for a lot of guys, Fi can be great, fit and forget, no messin with adjustments, self learning - no tuning skill required and for what I have seen, reliable. It certainly has it's place IMO. Not that I would use a TBi system, or bother with a MPi on these old engines. I would doubt the average guy would see any power gains, but I don't think that's there main benefit.

Can't argue with Joe with his set up, sounds crisp and I'm sure runs really well - something to be proud of, but carbs and tuning aren't where it's at for everyone.

[WHITE AND RED 69]

Different strokes for different folks.

I've got two old cars, one with fuel injection and one with a carb and I like working on both. They each have their own benefits when properly set up. Right now I turn the key on both and they start up with no issues.  

Before I switched to TBI on the charger I had the carb set up for reliability and it ran great. Had to adjust it for winter and then in summer but it always was reliable and starting it was easy. But the throttle response on the EFI is hands down better in my case. I'm sure a better carb could have gotten similar results but I like the tuning capabilities of the EFI unit on the handheld unit. And it is nice to have the a/f ratio constantly spot on no matter where I'm driving it.

I'm just glad there are options out there for mopars for whatever you decide to run. The EFI units are getting better and there are plenty of carb options as well if that's what you want to run. Whatever gets these old cars out on the roads works for me.

And no fair comparing your 600+ hp engine built for racing to the rest of our maybe 400 hp engines on throttle response. Of course your throttle response is going to be better with that kind of power and a 950cfm carb.  

[c00nhunterjoe]

John, horse and buggy vs car is a far cry from carb vs tbi... you missed the point. People always blame the carb when something isnt right. 99.9% of the time its not a faulty carb. And i dont know of too often that a carb causes a breakdown. And if it does. A screwdriver can usually fix it.

[c00nhunterjoe]

And no fair comparing your 600+ hp engine built for racing to the rest of our maybe 400 hp engines on throttle response. Of course your throttle response is going to be better with that kind of power and a 950cfm carb.  

Its actually swayed towards your favor. Mine is still a 440. No stroker cranks here. My cylinder heads are bigger then most of you who have 500+ engines and my cam is twice the size and by general rule, a 440 should only run a 750, . If anyone should be at a disadvantage its me. And mine is 90% street driven for the record. We could use the wife's origonal  72 nova as an example if you like? It is just as crisp as mine, just not quite as fast.

Agreed different strokes for different folks. I love fuel injection. I tune them all the time. My gripe is as i said before, its not the carbs fault you cant tune. And its really not rocket science. Theres 1 bushing and 2 springs inside a distributor, depending on the carb youve either got squirters, cams or rods and springs and jets. And even moreso, you dont even have to go in blind. Just about every possible combination has been built by someone and the jetting amd springs and advance curve you would need to get extremely close are a google search away.
  It is what it is. If you cant or dont want to get your hands dirty, sure go fuel injection. But to think a carb is junk or wont work is absurd.

[WHITE AND RED 69]

But to think a carb is junk or wont work is absurd.

100% agree with that. They work great, are reliable, and easily worked on. So sure, some guys who switched maybe didn't know how to tune it or possibly just got sick of tuning it. So I get your point with guys saying the carbs are junk (which I don't think I ever said and don't see very many people on this site say) but not all of us who switched are afraid to pop the hood and get our hands dirty.


   

[c00nhunterjoe]

I wasnt referring to anyone specific. Its just an in general as there are more and more "fuel injection fixed my problem" topics. If you want fuel injection- great, two thumbs up. Have at it. But to the poor sould who are dumping tons of cash into a system because they think they need it or are persuaded by shops just grinds my gears.

[c00nhunterjoe]

I also never understood those who are constantly tuning and adjusting. Set it and forget it. I dont change jets and cams once a car is set up. And i live in maryland where we have all 4 seasons in a 7 day period. That goes for the mild street cars to the dedicated drag cars within the fleet. No carb changes, no rocker adjustments. Set it once and go drive the car. Only exception is the 2 dedicated drag cars as the rockers get removed ever winter for storage so there is technically a once a year adjustment made. Other then that, its oil changes amd tire replacements.

[69wannabe]

I guess you have seen my post of doing things ass backwards, I went to the Fitech throttle body since it seemed to be the new it thing and the idea of it starting cold and running like my early 2000 grand cherokee's was appealing. Bought it, ran it, fooled with it and fooled with it some more and it ran ok but didn't start all that great in cold weather and even in warmer weather it seemed even worse. Decided after driving it from town bucking and jumping every so often that I was going back to my holley double pumper. One of the best decisions I made on the engine was the stealth head upgrade, that was money well spent IMO. The Fitech not so much, yes sometime's tuning a carb is tidious but once you get it tuned in it's usually good from there. After driving my car with the holley on it for a few weeks I knew I had a little lean spot off idle so I went up 3 jet sizes on the front and I think later on I went up on my accelerator pump squirters to the next size up and haven't messed with it since. Same goes for the holley on my old ford truck, put it on new and drove it for a few weeks and could tell it had a little lean spot off idle so jetted it up 2 sizes and the lean spot is gone now. I usually go up 3 sizes but I didn't have that size jet handy so I went up 2 sizes and it got rid of the lean spot pretty much and haven't looked at it since late last year. I have always been a carb guy, like the old quadrajets and I know it's a GM carb but when they are right they are very hard to beat on a mildly built engine. The holley's are kind of a love hate since some I have been able to make work great and some not so much but the eddy carbs are the same way. I have always liked doing rebuilds on carbs and making them do good again, the mid 80's GM computer command Q-jets were a real challenge but I got pretty good at them. The old ford 2 barrel carbs are easy to rebuild too. You are right Joe, just because it has a carburetor on it doesn't mean it's junk or that it doesn't run good at all.....

[c00nhunterjoe]

I dont remember your specific dilemma. Hell, cant keep track of them all. Lol. Toys are a labor of love, no matter what is under the hood. At least youve got it sorted out. 

[John_Kunkel]

John, horse and buggy vs car is a far cry from carb vs tbi... you missed the point.

No I didn't and no it isn't. And, oh, BTW, I do my TBI "tuning" from the drivers seat with the hood closed.

[XH29N0G]

I just reread your post.  So all we have to do is to say TBI is the way to go and we can get to ride in that car... ...I'm sure that TBI has some advantages, but I have had many cars with carbs and they do basically the same thing.  Catch and Start.  I have to pump the gas before cranking. They have also been responsive once the carburetor has been dialed in.  So carburetors seem to work pretty well in a lot of situation. 

[c00nhunterjoe]

I just reread your post.  So all we have to do is to say TBI is the way to go and we can get to ride in that car... ...I'm sure that TBI has some advantages, but I have had many cars with carbs and they do basically the same thing.  Catch and Start.  I have to pump the gas before cranking. They have also been responsive once the carburetor has been dialed in.  So carburetors seem to work pretty well in a lot of situation. 

You dont even have to throw out the new catch phrase. Just come on over for a ride. Lol

[JR]

Ok, I think it's time we sit down, and finally address this issue like sensible adults.

Joe, show me on the doll where the TBI touched you.

[c00nhunterjoe]

Lmfao

[69wannabe]

LOL, that's pretty good right there. The TBI works just like a good carburetor works. For the money spent on a fuel injection system I just didn't get the WOW effect I was looking for. At least I did trade the Fitech stuff for a good paint job on my old ford truck and it didn't cost me anything to put my holley back on and hook it back up.....

[John_Kunkel]

I have to pump the gas before cranking.

I don't.

They have also been responsive once the carburetor has been dialed in.

So, lean over fender, remove bowls/lid, change jets, reassemble, test drive, tweak mixture screws, if not good try again ad infinitum. Weather/altitude changes, do it again.

Versus let electronics do it for you.

So carburetors seem to work pretty well in a lot of situation.

The operative term being "in a lot of"....but not all.

[c00nhunterjoe]

I have to pump the gas before cranking.

I don't.

They have also been responsive once the carburetor has been dialed in.

So, lean over fender, remove bowls/lid, change jets, reassemble, test drive, tweak mixture screws, if not good try again ad infinitum. Weather/altitude changes, do it again.

Versus let electronics do it for you.

So carburetors seem to work pretty well in a lot of situation.

The operative term being "in a lot of"....but not all.

If pumping the gas pedal twice to start the car is your justification for dropping 1500 bucks on injection, go for it. And i dont know of many people aside from die hard drag racers, that do constant jet changes with weather and density altitude changes. And many of those guys dont even bother unless you are heads up racing looking for every last .001 of et. A bit of a stretch there again.

[69wannabe]

I agree Joe, if your carburetor works really well then going to EFI isn't going to make that much of a difference. The Fitech had a few things I liked about it but my 850 Holley DP ran great so after all was said and done the carb out weighed the good and bad difference between the Fitech and the carb. The fitech was a little bit more responsive accelerating from cruise to part throttle but that was it. It didn't start as good as it should have cold or hot and it still had heat soak issues that should not have been there which was one of the main reasons to go with EFI.  If you are going to dump 2 grand on something you want to see a big difference with go with some good prepped stealth heads or a good set of the other aluminium heads that flow really well. If you want to see a real difference in performance that is one of the steps to take. Going to EFI isn't going to be a daylight and dark difference.....

[440]

I'm a Holley carb guy but I've had MAJOR issues with a brand new Holley 670 Ultra Street Avenger.

Long story short I had an engine built and the engine builder broke in the cam (non mopar) They had troubles with the carb so sent it to the dyno guys. A couple of days on the dyno and $800 later it's still not right. The dyno guys were back and forth with Holley and were about ready give up. I think they just got it running and gave it back to me. For a carb that is $800-$1000 here I have been extremely disappointed.

Needless to say it still needs work and the engine has less than 1000 miles on it. The car basically just sits in a shed now untill I can be bothered with it.

[John_Kunkel]

If pumping the gas pedal twice to start the car is your justification for dropping 1500 bucks on injection, go for it. And i dont know of many people aside from die hard drag racers, that do constant jet changes with weather and density altitude changes. And many of those guys dont even bother unless you are heads up racing looking for every last .001 of et. A bit of a stretch there again.

Not the only justification, just one of many.

If you don't do constant changes to compensate for conditions, then your carb isn't functioning as great as you think it is. Amazing what some people will tolerate to justify bullheadedness.

[c00nhunterjoe]

If pumping the gas pedal twice to start the car is your justification for dropping 1500 bucks on injection, go for it. And i dont know of many people aside from die hard drag racers, that do constant jet changes with weather and density altitude changes. And many of those guys dont even bother unless you are heads up racing looking for every last .001 of et. A bit of a stretch there again.

Not the only justification, just one of many.

If you don't do constant changes to compensate for conditions, then your carb isn't functioning as great as you think it is. Amazing what some people will tolerate to justify bullheadedness.

Are you suggesting that everyone drive around with a portable weather station and pull over everytime there is an atmospheric change? That would be about every 10 minutes. Unless you are racing in the colorado rockies and then head to florida glades for the followup race, you are splitting hairs as far as how much recalibrating is needed on the average weekend cruiser and what effect it will have on the said car.

[timmycharger]

This is the point I got out of this thread, not sure why some folks are having trouble grasping it.

"Agreed different strokes for different folks. I love fuel injection. I tune them all the time. My gripe is as i said before, its not the carbs fault you cant tune. And its really not rocket science"

[440]

My gripe is as i said before, its not the carbs fault you cant tune. And its really not rocket science"

My case could be just the opposite....