60 over 440 should I get it?????

[8WHEELER]

I have come across a friend of mine that built a 60 over 440 for his Cuda, but he came across a Hemi and
is going that rout. Anyway he put good money into it, and it was done in a good shop in our area.

70 model year 440
60 over
crank 10 & 10
10 to 1 Kieth black flat top pistons
single chrome Molly rings
6pk rods
engine balanced

906 heads
mild porting job
new valves
new seats
new springs
new stock rocker arms and shafts and pushrods
new 484-284 Mopar cam, I NO I NO 
double roller timing chain

Block drilled out for 1/2in pipe, for the new pick up tube
comes with a mint original Hemi pan
I don't have the rest of the specs in my head but this is the basics.
Completely assembled

I have always built my own engines so thats a mild concern, also I have never had a 60 over block
and would rather not if I had the choice.

The car this will be in will see limited driving ''car shows, nice weekend days''.

Do I spend 3k on this ''done'' engine? if it was 30 over I would have it in my garage by now, am
I worried for no reason? I had heard several 60 over overheating block problems.
I was going to build two of my 68 stock bore blocks, but I would put over 3k into
them each and I get the hole shebang for this one for 3k. And no I am not worried about
a Date code on this engine for this application.

Thoughts and opinions please 

Thanks Dan

[dodge freak]

Well I don't like .060 either, was alway told that .030 would make more power. But this has been talk about alot on here and people have done it with Good results. That 1970 block is made better that the late 70s and you said a Good shop did it. I would go for it, its ready to go and has other good parts. I think overheating has alot to do with having a good rad and air flow which some people forget about. Sounds like you will not even drive it that hard. I would take the chance, if there is a problem it won't be a total waste. Sounds like some nice parts in there. Good luck

[firefighter3931]

I dunno....couple of things i don't like about it. The kb slugs and purple shaft would turn me off from the get go. I would want to see some some sonic check numbers on that block at .060 before making my final decision. 

Ron

[8WHEELER]

The sheet actually says TRW and a part number then KB pistons, evan the guy that had it build was going
hummmm. I need a closer look at the sheet again, my eyes kind of glazed over after I saw the 60 over,
because he told me on the phone for the two weeks prior that it was 30 over. I know the block was not
sonic checked Ron    so I would have to do a tear down on it witch is really no big thing, just was hoping
it was a point and shoot engine for that price, yes I know many people dislike that can  but I have pretty
much only run that cam since 1980, I tried the 509 mopar can    got that out of there fast.

Dan

[General-lee-66]

Hello
   I have been building these old classic cars for over 20 years. I wouldn't buy the .060 over because that's getter way too close to the water jackets.. These style engines tends to overheat too much causing cracks in the blocks!!!!  Go with a 68-70  383-440 blocks plain jane or H.P., .030 would be great. No chances of overheating, warpage or cracks as much. I have a 1969 383 H.P. bored .030 and with a different cam, electronic distributor and igntion does make a big difference in power 400+ horse!!!! If you want to get crazy about it, you could have the heads ported & polished right along with the intake... More fuel, more power! But by summer the rumor has it that gas will be as much as $5.00 per gallon, but what the heck, fill them and drive them, at least they don't give you lip like your wives or girlfriend will!  hahhaha   

[Blue Pentastar]

Dodge Dan provided this link on another thread and I thought it was very informative.

http://www.440source.com/blockinfo.htm

Mike Schrader

[hemigeno]

I would want to see some some sonic check numbers on that block at .060 before making my final decision.

I agree with Ron 100%.  If the shop that did the machine work just punched out the block without sonic testing it, they did the owner no favors whatsoever.  It's not unheard of for there to be core shift problems that would cause even a standard-bore block to have thin cylinder walls.  We took my Poly318 block out 0.070" and still had plenty of meat left.

It's not how much they're bored out that matters, it's how much that's left after the machine work is done.



P.S. The link that Mike / Blue Pentastar posted debunks the myth that the late 440 blocks are "thin wall" castings.  I had heard that many years ago also, but it's not true.  Some really good info on that site - definitely worth your time to go through it if you haven't seen it before.

[firefighter3931]

It's not unheard of for there to be core shift problems that would cause even a standard-bore block to have thin cylinder walls.  We took my Poly318 block out 0.070" and still had plenty of meat left.

It's not how much they're bored out that matters, it's how much that's left after the machine work is done.

Those are good points Gene. I have a buddy with a 413 block that was bored out to a 426. The block came from a motorhome and had unbelievably thick cylinder walls....plenty for a .062 overbore....it could have gone .080 and still been fine.  Like Gene says ; core shift can make or break a potential build and some early cast "desirable" blocks are useless for any type of performance build.

I guess the best way to approach it would be a teardown and sonic check....assuming the potential seller would allow that to happen. Dan, if you've got a few 68 blocks lying around then that's the way i'd go. I prefer to know what i've got rather than trusting somebody elses work. Summit carries the speedpro overhaul kits and for a few extra $$ you can get them with the 2355 6-pack slugs. You could probably build it yourself for the same price, maybe even a little cheaper and know for sure what you've got.

Nothing wrong with the purpleshaft cams...but there's better stuff out there. The 284 is a descent enough grind with adequate stall and gear. 

Ron

[8WHEELER]

Thanks guys and Ron, I was thinking all the things you are saying, after I read 60+ on the bore
section on the machine shop paper work. He still can't believe its 60 over, he remembers talking
to them and they all agreed on 30 over on a virgin bore block, he was going to call the good old
machine shop soon and make sure the info is correct. I told him if its written down here I doubt
they are going to remember something different.

Dang, I had my hopes up for 2wks, for a 30 over 440 all ready to go for 3k, I wish the paper work was wrong 

The other main reason I wanted this ready to go now engine was to replace the engine in my car now, then take out
the 11.5 to 1 TRW pistons that are in my engine now, and either put 9 to 1 pistons in it so I can still run my 915 heads,
or 9.5 to 1 pistons and 452 or 906 heads. This car only sees 3 to 4k a year.  I still have fun with it and car shows, but it
does not go down the track anymore   

Dan

[firefighter3931]

Thanks guys and Ron, I was thinking all the things you are saying, after I read 60+ on the bore
section on the machine shop paper work. He still can't believe its 60 over, he remembers talking
to them and they all agreed on 30 over on a virgin bore block, he was going to call the good old
machine shop soon and make sure the info is correct. I told him if its written down here I doubt
they are going to remember something different.

Dang, I had my hopes up for 2wks, for a 30 over 440 all ready to go for 3k, I wish the paper work was wrong 

The other main reason I wanted this ready to go now engine was to replace the engine in my car now, then take out
the 11.5 to 1 TRW pistons that are in my engine now, and either put 9 to 1 pistons in it so I can still run my 915 heads,
or 9.5 to 1 pistons and 452 or 906 heads. This car only sees 3 to 4k a year.  I still have fun with it and car shows, but it
does not go down the track anymore   

Dan

Dan, if all you're trying to do is take some compression out, why not go with an open chamber head and thick head gasket ?  A little chamber work with a thick (large bore) gasket should be able to get the job done. 

You could keep the shortblock intact and just concentrate on the top end. I'm assuming of course that the short is in good shape....

Ron

[8WHEELER]

Yes Ron, there is an issue with my existing short block  I don't know if you remember or not, but
over a year ago I had my car running in the garage and the engine started slowing down at idle after
being warmed up. So I got concerned rev ed it up a bit and the idle speed came back up. A few minutes
later the car slowed again, I looked over and smoke/steam was pouring out between the fender and hood.
I got around the car shut it off and found out it was leaking antifreeze everywhere, I waited ten
minutes at least and wanted to see if the engine would evan turn over, well nope    the engine had got
so hot it would not evan turn one little bit.

The next day I tried it again and it did turn over, so I put a new thermostat in it ''it had to have got stuck''
changed the oil and filter. Started the car after changing the battery caps see below. Anyway the engine
now will puff blue from time to time when rev ed I hate that, I think I told you before this is the same
block I bored 30 over, new 11.5 to 1 pistons turned the crank 10 and 10, and many other items back in 1980
the same engine has been in the car for 26yrs.

So I don't feel to bad    it has been through everything with me, many many races never kept count, street
and strip. I still have great oil pressure and no noises, but the blue smoke is getting worse, before it overheaded I
never saw blue or went though oil, it goes through about a 1/2 quart a year now 

Dan

[RallyeMike]

I have run a mild 71 440 .60 over in one car for 19 years. No problems. I raced a .60 over 383 with no problems. As was said, It depends on the block. If the shop did not check it, I think I would pass.

[firefighter3931]

Those BB mopars are tough....try that with a chebby and see how long it lasts. 

Here's my  Dan ; Run compression and leakdown tests to see what you've got. The shortblock might be just fine. I've overheated a few in my day and those motors went on to live for many miles afterwards. My guess is that the starter got heat soaked when the engine overheated and wouldn't turn it over afterwards....been there ! I doubt you did any serious damage to the bottom end of this engine....

Ron

[8WHEELER]

It was interesting Ron, all of the antifreeze that came out and was all over the floor all came out
of the over flow tube only, when I turned the key back on just to check the temp the gauge
was allmost pegged    I have never seen that in any car before. The starter did not get
moister in it but it got hot as holly  yikes.

Dan

[tecmopar]

Just another thought, should anything happen to one of the holes, "God forbid", its already at its limit so then it would be time for another block, good luck.

[8WHEELER]

Very true    but we got in touch with the machine shop, he had taken the first engine in
and they bored it 60 over and it would still need a sleeve. So he brought this block in right away
and had it done. Well since they had his paper work there and the only thing they had done was
bore the block that was the only thing on the form. So to get to the point they wrought done
all of the rest of the rebuild on that first main sheet, found out this morning after checking it is 30 over   

I think I should jump on it now    I feel much better.

Dan

[Mike DC]

 
Apparently modern gasoline is much more prone to overheating the engine than the old stuff was, and I don't just mean because of the lack of tetraethyl lead.  It's more compromised for emissions, and they're assuming it's gonna get sprayed through hi-pressure fuel injectors. 

And a lot of newer engines are cast from the factory with cylinder walls thinner than ever before.  No safe overboring is even possible on many of them.  Yet these new engines don't overheat all the time.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

I wonder if the increased overheating on engines is more because of the fuel changes.  Maybe we're mistaking it for overboring problems becuase both of these changes are just now happening to the engines in more recent decades.

 

[73chargers4404]

Theres a machine shop here and the guy that runs it works on 90% mopar engines he  had 3 426 hemi blocks on stands when i whent in ,and he said hes bored hundreds of 440s 60 over and never had problems with overheating and he allso said the newer blocks where stronger because of the ribs on the side of the water jacket ,ive noticed alot of post on this topic start with i herd .i allso noticed that most good pistons only come in 30 or 60 oversize like speedpro forged anyways.

[firefighter3931]

found out this morning after checking it is 30 over   

I think I should jump on it now    I feel much better.

Dan

That sounds much better ! 

Ron