100% bolt in 5 SPEED!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Bad B-rad]

I just found this, maybe I am way behind everyone else, but its NEW TO ME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Anyone have this trans?
Looks, and sounds like a really, really good option!



https://www.passonperformance.com/current/images/stories/passon_documents/Passon_5-Speed_Flyer_2010-11-18.pdf


I know passion has a good rep. SO guess we will see.

[Bad B-rad]

OH I just saw the $5800 price tag!!!! OUCH!!!
I get it, pay to play, but dang!

[Charger-Bodie]

I have one. I also have had tremecs. Passon  5 speed is worth the money to me.

[timmycharger]

When I was shopping for one the list was incredibly long, not sure how long it is right now.

  I ended up getting his stock Hemi 4 speed box, I wanted his overdrive version but after waiting 4 months, his gear supplier overcooked them when hardening the gears and there was another 4 month wait.

Great guy to deal with regardless, I am super happy with his product.

[Daytona R/T SE]

I just found this, maybe I am way behind everyone else, but its NEW TO ME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Anyone have this trans?
Looks, and sounds like a really, really good option!



https://www.passonperformance.com/current/images/stories/passon_documents/Passon_5-Speed_Flyer_2010-11-18.pdf


I know passion has a good rep. SO guess we will see.

Here's some light reading for you:

http://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/867739/1.html

The above thread is over seven years old. 

[Bad B-rad]

Well I just sold a NV-5600 for $2,000, so in theory I can make the price of the passion 5 speed 2K cheaper!!!!
I have only read about the ones where you have to cut up the torsion bar X-member and plate it, I am not really down for that.



So let me ask you guys this, what is a better, more fun for the street the 5 speed, or the Hemi 4 speed OD?
I am almost sure that one of them is going in my Charger, but being a broke dude , it may be the 4 speed OD


Sorry I am so late to the party, I do not know why the Mopar books haven't been using this trans in some of their featured builds?
I think its great!!!!!

[DAY CLONA]

When I was shopping for one the list was incredibly long, not sure how long it is right now.

 

It's not that the list is long, it's the waiting time, it is/has been years because of various set backs in assembly, component failure, vendor supply

Current issue for B/E guys waiting IIRC is poor tailshaft castings, some guys are still waiting on 7 years for a hint of delivery on other A/B units, the boat was missed many years ago for this product's offering, for the crowd that's not afraid to modify their vehicle, T56 6 spds have become the transmission of choice, more kit offerings from various mfg's, as well as constant production/upgrades from Tremec and the aftermarket

[Mike DC]

  
I don't see much reason to want a 6-spd in one of these cars besides bragging rights.  It's still using the first 4 gears to get you up to 1:1, same as the stock 4spd or a 5spd.  The 6th gear is a second overdrive gear that's VERY tall.  That 6th gear requires A LOT more chopping on the car than a 5spd and it's a heavier tranny too.

 

[XH29N0G]

So let me ask you guys this, what is a better, more fun for the street the 5 speed, or the Hemi 4 speed OD?
I am almost sure that one of them is going in my Charger, but being a broke dude , it may be the 4 speed OD

I would do some calculations to determine the shift points you will have with your set up.  I would also see if there is anything with the shifters that makes a difference to you. 

The Hemi 4 spd OD ratios look like they would make a very nice set that would be fun to drive.  My gripe with the late 70's model OD was that 1st was like driving a tractor and that is why I went with the 5 speed, but I was not award of the hemi 4 spd OD at the time of my purchase. A bold in unit is very nice because then you may not have to work with all the cutting and aligning.   

[303 Mopar]

So let me ask you guys this, what is a better, more fun for the street the 5 speed, or the Hemi 4 speed OD?
I am almost sure that one of them is going in my Charger, but being a broke dude , it may be the 4 speed OD

I have the Passon Hemi 4 spd OD in my Cuda with a 392 Hemi and love it!  It took about 3 months to get.  For generally driving around you use the first 3 gears, and with 3.55s out back it has plenty of get up and go. Anything above 55 mph, you have the .80 4th gear. At 65 mph, I'm around 2300 rpm with 275/40/18 tires.

As for the 855 5 speed, I'm going on year 4 waiting.  I pinged Jamie again a couple weeks ago, and as mentioned above, he is out of B body tail shafts and has no ETA for me.   

[pipeliner]

 
I don't see much reason to want a 6-spd in one of these cars besides bragging rights.  It's still using the first 4 gears to get you up to 1:1, same as the stock 4spd or a 5spd.  The 6th gear is a second overdrive gear that's VERY tall.  That 6th gear requires A LOT more chopping on the car than a 5spd and it's a heavier tranny too.

 

LMAO and here's another person that doesn't know a lot about the 6-speeds. Not all 6-speeds are geared the same and yes the .50 is geared to tall. It's a lot more than just using the 1st 4 gears. You have to look how they are geared and the T-56 does it way better and way smoother. My gear ratios for my T-56 Magnum are 2.66 1.78 1.30 1.00 .80 .63. You claim the T-56 is a heavier tranny also. Well The T-56 bolted up to my QT bellhousing weighs about 130#. That's lighter than my old 833 bolted up to the bell housing. If you bolt up a Passon 855 to a factory bellhousing with the linkages I'm guessing it's going to weigh about 120#. Now if you were to run a lightweight aftermarket aluminum bellhousing on the Passon you could shave some more weight off of it. Yes I cut my tunnel and I'm glad I did, the best thing I ever did and it sure to hell wasnt for bragging rights. My buddy was sure happy when I supprised him with a 69 18 spline 833 and bellhousing, yeah that's right I gave it to him now shift on!

[Challenger340]

Given, a lot of these OD deals have .64 etc ratios ?
That's what.... say 1800 to 2100 rpm at 60-70mph cruise even with 3.73 gearing and say a 27" tall rear tire ?

Curious to know what Cam events in "performance" style Camshaft in any older legacy Engine, people think is "happy" let be "efficient" for fuel economy(if that is the intent)... at 2000 rpm, especially under any kind of load like a small hill or incline ?
just say'in...
how many here running 240'ish + @ .050 Camshafts and those low OD's have actually tested their Fuel Economy ? Again, assuming Fuel Economy was the intent for the OD in the first place.
and,
second consideration here, if you are running a smaller Camshaft that is "happy" in the 1800-2100 rpm cruise/load range, how much TORQUE are you applying to the OD 5spds at WOT in the other gears ?

[Mike DC]

LMAO and here's another person that doesn't know a lot about the 6-speeds. Not all 6-speeds are geared the same and yes the .50 is geared to tall. It's a lot more than just using the 1st 4 gears. You have to look how they are geared and the T-56 does it way better and way smoother. My gear ratios for my T-56 Magnum are 2.66 1.78 1.30 1.00 .80 .63.

Mopar 4spd gear ratios.  Putting aside the factory OD (which isn't great for hi-po anyway), the ratios on most OEM 4spds are not dramatically different from the 6spd's first 4 gears:



Tremec (5spd) TKO 600 ratios: 2.87, 1.89, 1.28, 1.00, 0.64.   The first 4 gears are not dramatically different either.   

You claim the T-56 is a heavier tranny also. Well The T-56 bolted up to my QT bellhousing weighs about 130#. That's lighter than my old 833 bolted up to the bell housing. If you bolt up a Passon 855 to a factory bellhousing with the linkages I'm guessing it's going to weigh about 120#. Now if you were to run a lightweight aftermarket aluminum bellhousing on the Passon you could shave some more weight off of it.

If you compare apples-to-apples (a 5spd Tremec or an A-833 with some/all aluminum parts) then the 6spd is indeed heavier. 

I never claimed the 6spd weight gain was huge, just that it existed. 

Yes I cut my tunnel and I'm glad I did, the best thing I ever did and it sure to hell wasnt for bragging rights. My buddy was sure happy when I supprised him with a 69 18 spline 833 and bellhousing, yeah that's right I gave it to him now shift on!

Good for you.  I'm glad you're happy with it. 

I still think the Tremec 5spd gives similar results.  And it definitely demands less car cutting.  Different strokes.   

[DAY CLONA]

 
I don't see much reason to want a 6-spd in one of these cars besides bragging rights.  It's still using the first 4 gears to get you up to 1:1, same as the stock 4spd or a 5spd.  The 6th gear is a second overdrive gear that's VERY tall.  That 6th gear requires A LOT more chopping on the car than a 5spd and it's a heavier tranny too.

 

LMAO and here's another person that doesn't know a lot about the 6-speeds. Not all 6-speeds are geared the same and yes the .50 is geared to tall. It's a lot more than just using the 1st 4 gears. You have to look how they are geared and the T-56 does it way better and way smoother. My gear ratios for my T-56 Magnum are 2.66 1.78 1.30 1.00 .80 .63. You claim the T-56 is a heavier tranny also. Well The T-56 bolted up to my QT bellhousing weighs about 130#. That's lighter than my old 833 bolted up to the bell housing. If you bolt up a Passon 855 to a factory bellhousing with the linkages I'm guessing it's going to weigh about 120#. Now if you were to run a lightweight aftermarket aluminum bellhousing on the Passon you could shave some more weight off of it. Yes I cut my tunnel and I'm glad I did, the best thing I ever did and it sure to hell wasnt for bragging rights.

Agreed, I can remember 10-15 yrs ago when I was advocating the use of 5 spd OD transmissions, the general "Mopar" crowd consensus was "you don't need no stinkin 5 spd OD's, a 4 spd is more than enough!" ...I've done a good share of 5 spd conversions and a couple of 6 spds for myself and customers over the years, until you've actually made the conversion to a 5 or 6 spd to see the benefits in actual usage, increased drive-ability, mileage gains, etc ( try driving that 4:10/4:56 BB with a 1:1 final ratio 4spd or auto on the highway/cross country, you'll see how old it gets real fast) granted the 5 spd still has it uses, but the 6 spd applications for older iron have come along so far in application and fitment that the 5 spd OD IMHO has taken a back seat to the usage of 6 gears, the Tremec T56 is like day and night in comparison to the TKO500/600

And for the guys like myself that like 4:00-4:50 axle gears, the T56 .50 OD is a necessity...  some guys like to go fast, some quick, a T56 let's you do both if chosen properly...

[Mike DC]

Agreed, I can remember 10-15 yrs ago when I was advocating the use of 5 spd OD transmissions, the general "Mopar" crowd consensus was "you don't need no stinkin 5 spd OD's, a 4 spd is more than enough!"

That isn't me.  Never was.  IMO the factory's standard 3.23 ratio + no overdrive was always too low for highway cruising.  

...I've done a good share of 5 spd conversions and a couple of 6 spds for myself and customers over the years, until you've actually made the conversion to a 5 or 6 spd to see the benefits in actual usage, increased drive-ability, mileage gains, etc ( try driving that 4:10/4:56 BB with a 1:1 final ratio 4spd or auto on the highway/cross country, you'll see how old it gets real fast) granted the 5 spd still has it uses, but the 6 spd applications for older iron have come along so far in application and fitment that the 5 spd OD IMHO has taken a back seat to the usage of 6 gears, the Tremec T56 is like day and night in comparison to the TKO500/600

And for the guys like myself that like 4:00-4:50 axle gears, the T56 .50 OD is a necessity...  some guys like to go fast, some quick, a T56 let's you do both if chosen properly...

Okay, you guys win.  If you wanna run 4.30's or 4.56's then that 6th gear starts looking worthwhile.  

But I would point out that isn't most people.  

I know a guy who has 4.88's in his street-driven GTO.  He might think a 6spd is inadequate and wish for an even taller 7th gear.  7spd manuals already do exist.  But if you gave him one then he might start eyeing 5.13 gears for the axle before long.  Where does it end?

[pipeliner]

The Tremec 5 speed 1st gear is to low making it almost useless like the regular T-56 but in a T-56 you can get a close ratio gear set 1-4 gears and then use the open gear set for 5 and 6 gears giving you a final of 50. If I was using a 4.10 or 3.91 I would only use the close ratio but if I were using a 4.30 or lower I'd use the combo above I mentioned because of the taller gears in the tranny. I'm running 3.91 gears and I can actually use 1st gear. My buddy has a 4.10 in the Open gear set .50 and 1st gear is useless. So he basically has a 5-speed. Same thing with a Tremec 5-speed. 1st gear is useless using a low gear in the rear.

[Dino]

I'm planning on a T56 behind a 440 with 3.55 gears and 28" tall tires. Should be a lot of fun!

[1974dodgecharger]

I plan to get a T56 magnum behind a 528 hemi with 4.10 gearing on 26inch tall tires.  I juggled back and forth on a 5 or 6, but no way I was gonna do 4 speed granted I used to cruise at 3k rpm at 80ish mph with 28inch tall tires on the stock A833 and people said I was insane.  I opted for the 6 speed because both the 5 and 6 have to hack tunnel anyways, but with the 6 speed magnum you get 700ft lbs plus of torque rating and smoother shifts than our old 4 speeds.  As for passon 5 speed great company and Jamie helps a lot of people, but just to give you guys an idea Im on year 2 of a 7 year wait on 5 speeds I was in line at 300 ish people last time I heard, but I quit the waiting game on that one.  They are awesome pieces and know some friends with them who got dibs on them because he knows Jamie personally he just happen to have one lying around and sold it to his buddies, but im not a buddie 

[Challenger340]

Again here,
curious what Cam profiles people are planning for these O.D. Gearing/Tire combos ? re: the actual expected 5th or 6th O.D. cruise rpm ?

[Kern Dog]

That is a great point. If a long duration cam "likes" to run at 3500 rpms and up, how would it do at 2000 rpms for hours at a time on the freeway? Sure, it will be quieter with less rpms but will the mileage be the same or worse? Will the pistons and valves form deposits from unburned fuel? Will the oil get diluted, the cylinder walls get scored from fuel wash, etc...?

[Challenger340]

That is a great point. If a long duration cam "likes" to run at 3500 rpms and up, how would it do at 2000 rpms for hours at a time on the freeway? Sure, it will be quieter with less rpms but will the mileage be the same or worse? Will the pistons and valves form deposits from unburned fuel? Will the oil get diluted, the cylinder walls get scored from fuel wash, etc...?

That's my point exactly !  

Not many "performance" cam profiles much above stock events are efficient for fuel economy down around 1,800 to 2,100 rpm if that is the intention for the O.D. ?
And even if they do smooth out the port reversion sufficiently for very light cruising at that rpm, I highly suspect any pedal demands for Torque on even slightest inclines, etc., would cause fuel loading below optimum stoichiometric mixtures and invariably a constant PITA downshift.

just say'in.... might be worth some thought beforehand ?
if you want good power at higher rpm's ? that takes some Camshaft events for breathing.  
But you "can't have your cake and eat it too" so to speak, and be efficient down at 1,800 to 2,100 rpm much past 220's @ .050 profiles and wider lsa designs.

[Challenger340]

I plan to get a T56 magnum behind a 528 hemi with 4.10 gearing on 26inch tall tires.  I juggled back and forth on a 5 or 6, but no way I was gonna do 4 speed granted I used to cruise at 3k rpm at 80ish mph with 28inch tall tires on the stock A833 and people said I was insane.  I opted for the 6 speed because both the 5 and 6 have to hack tunnel anyways, but with the 6 speed magnum you get 700ft lbs plus of torque rating and smoother shifts than our old 4 speeds.  As for passon 5 speed great company and Jamie helps a lot of people, but just to give you guys an idea Im on year 2 of a 7 year wait on 5 speeds I was in line at 300 ish people last time I heard, but I quit the waiting game on that one.  They are awesome pieces and know some friends with them who got dibs on them because he knows Jamie personally he just happen to have one lying around and sold it to his buddies, but im not a buddie 

Using 4.10 gears and 26" tall Tires ?

Most calculators I use say:
*  that a .64 O.D. between 60-70 mph, will be around 2,000 Engine rpm at 60 mph, and 2375 Engine rpm at 70 mph ?

I know of no performance style Camshaft, depending upon one's definition of "performance" in a Hemi I guess ?..... that is going to LIKE, or run well(let be efficiency) down at THAT rpm range ? effectively making a 6 speed useless.
And remember...
the larger the Head Port Volume.... the slower the A/F charge moves in the port(velocity), further compromising Torque at lower rpm's

[myk]

So what's the verdict?  OD transmissions don't work well for our applications?  Or we have to pick a camshaft that lives in the lower RPM range?  Sounds to me that our cars would be lugging along with the RPMs that an OD transmission would put us into...

[Kern Dog]

Maybe we should look at how the new cars get the performance that they do.
Efficient cylinder head flow, EFI, computer controls and power adders. The 5.7 uses a variable valve timing setup that advances the cam timing at low speeds and retards it at higher speeds. This not only broadens the range of power, it increases it at it's peak.
The 5.7 in my 2007 Ram is rated at 345 HP, the 5.7 in the Wife's 2015 Challenger is rated at 372. THe difference is in the variable valve timing. The 2015 year truck with the 5.7 is a 395 HP mill. Trucks probably have a different fuel curve since trucks do not have the same tight emission standards as cars have.
The later engines make power through efficiency instead of through large displacement and big camshaft specs. An engine that idles smooth will LOVE to run at 1800 rpms in 6th gear. A rowdy engine with a rough idle will not.

[myk]

So if it's a matter of adjusting timing, among other things, one of those fancy EFI kits that can manipulate timing would be the thing to do?