Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !

[Simonic]

The title says it all for this thread. A hell of an interesting read.
I'm running a 440 source housing and 'turbine' style pump I bought new in 2017.
I'm noticing that at low speed when it's hot (for uk) weather that the temp is creeping up.
I do have a Chrysler water pump with the different style of impeller.
Can I use this in the 440 source housing ? Any possible clearance problems ?
Thank you gentlemen

[cdr]

The 440 source housing has been fixed MANY years ago, I have their pump & housing on my 512 & is runs cool in 105 deg weather, my car also has AC.

[Simonic]

The 440 source housing has been fixed MANY years ago, I have their pump & housing on my 512 & is runs cool in 105 deg weather, my car also has AC.

Thank You Sir.
Can I ask,is your pump the type with the curved turbine type fin or a more traditional ie chrysler type fin ?

[cdr]

The 440 source housing has been fixed MANY years ago, I have their pump & housing on my 512 & is runs cool in 105 deg weather, my car also has AC.

Thank You Sir.
Can I ask,is your pump the type with the curved turbine type fin or a more traditional ie chrysler type fin ?

it is the curved turbine type

[aerolith]

Hi Hot motor Folks!

Running a HOT 512ci (600hp) in my mates Mopar near to Faversham Kent, the HOTTEST place in the UK with a full 440-Source pump set-up, 'brand new' earlier this year and guess what???

OVERHEATING IN TRAFFIC AND ALMOST ANY SPEED UNDER 70MPH (seems OK at 120 plus?)...

So yesterday we swapped it out for a Mopar performance ali housing and Mopar supercool ali Motorhome pump.

Yep back to normal temps again, but leaking from the pump bolt holes...

So what are we to think???

Mopar Hot Heads of England

[krops cars]

This is interesting. I do not have an over heating issue yet. I have not had mine on the road. My thermostat housing was leaking. They said to just use a heavy bead of silicone. I inspected it. I had to plain it done. Now works great. You would think a place called 440 source would be great products. They could rename the company to 440 SH--.

[kevs1969daytona]

I had some overheating problems and this is what I found.  First when the engine was rebuild the thermostat was upside down and partial stuck open.



Also, when I got the car it initially had a 1977 block. So with 1977 block in the car I got a new water pump for it. I later learned the 1977 block had a bad main bearing so I rebuilt a new engine with a 1970 block.  So one day I go to NAPA because I want a brand new pump for my new engine rebuild and the counter guy says, "what years your car.  "Ummm" I say "it's a 1969 of course",  so he hands me a brand new 1969 water pump (not the housing).  I place the 1969 pump in the 1977 housing that was transferred from the old 1977 block, it fit perfectly.  Now I had no idea that a 1969 water flows in a different direction than a 1977 mopar 440.  So long story short when the 1970 block was built they put the 1977 water pump and housing on the block with a 1969 pump and it's getting way too hot still.  So I buy a mancini water pump see if it helps with cooling. But it has a drivers side lower coolant outlet, the 1977 pump on the block has a passenger side outlet "WTF", so I called Mancini the tech say you sent the wrong pump dummy, he say "no that's the correct housing and pump for a 1970 block" .  Sh** I looked at the directional fins on the pump that was in the 77 housing and the fins were backward not pushing enough, think I and figured it out.  I had to buy a new radiator (inlets were opposite).  heres some pics of the different water pumps for a 440 have late 70's versus older engine blocks.   Hopefully my it cures the issue. The bottom 2 pics are 440 pumps for the different years notice the directional fins.  So the morale of the story is know for certain what year your block is for a 440.  Hope this helps someone out.

[BLK 68 R/T]

The only BBM that I have heard of with a reverse flow is the marine applications (not even sure if they had a special pump?) Whether or not the inlet is on the left or right side doesn't matter as far as the pump is concerned in your application as long as the pump is being driven the correct way.

[kevs1969daytona]

Think of what I was trying to say is that the pump impellers were not correct for the outlet in my case.  Would think it would not be as efficient.   These are pics of 2x 440 water pump housing and 1x 440 water pump notice the fins are curved.  Would that curve be more efficient in one of these pumps as opposed to the other.  Not a mechanic but it looks like the curve is for one direction and made on purpose to pump more water through.  

[BLK 68 R/T]

Pump is still pumping water the same direction, just sucking it from the right side bottom instead of left side. That is the inlet side not the outlet.

[kevs1969daytona]

Car runs great have an extra large radiator, air pusher fan. manchi water pump, 180 thermostat.  I traffic she will go up to 190 turn the fan on couple minutes later maybe 180. Also have the heater radiator hook up, more water i guess.

[dspaulding70]

Anyone installed the Proform 440-453 aluminum water pump housing from Summit?  Here is the link       https://www.summitracing.com/parts/pro-440-453

Also I purchased the Tuff Stuff Perfomance Water Pump part 1317N also from Summit                   https://www.summitracing.com/parts/tff-1317n

I am having the same high temp problem in my 440.  I have the Summit radiator and (2) electric fan combo kit as well.     https://www.summitracing.com/parts/sum-384021-kit1

Thoughts?

[WHITE AND RED 69]

Anyone installed the Proform 440-453 aluminum water pump housing from Summit?  Here is the link       https://www.summitracing.com/parts/pro-440-453

Also I purchased the Tuff Stuff Perfomance Water Pump part 1317N also from Summit                   https://www.summitracing.com/parts/tff-1317n

I am having the same high temp problem in my 440.  I have the Summit radiator and (2) electric fan combo kit as well.     https://www.summitracing.com/parts/sum-384021-kit1

Thoughts?

Have you checked the flow in the radiator once the thermostat opens up? I'm pretty sure the proform housings are good so I'd start with the simple things and make sure the flow is right. Is the overheating at idle or highway speeds? Also what is your pulley setup?

[b5blue]

Rock Auto had the pump just like the big $$$$ one for great price made by DELCO.

[dspaulding70]

Anyone installed the Proform 440-453 aluminum water pump housing from Summit?  Here is the link       https://www.summitracing.com/parts/pro-440-453

Also I purchased the Tuff Stuff Perfomance Water Pump part 1317N also from Summit                   https://www.summitracing.com/parts/tff-1317n

I am having the same high temp problem in my 440.  I have the Summit radiator and (2) electric fan combo kit as well.     https://www.summitracing.com/parts/sum-384021-kit1

Thoughts?

Have you checked the flow in the radiator once the thermostat opens up? I'm pretty sure the proform housings are good so I'd start with the simple things and make sure the flow is right. Is the overheating at idle or highway speeds? Also what is your pulley setup?

Appreciate you responding.  Yes.  Thermostat is opening up.  Running a 160 degree t-stat.  Pulley system is March Performance serpentine system.  Thinking the electronic fans are cutting in and out because I noticed they were not running when I opened the hood when the temp was showing 210.

[dspaulding70]

Now pretty sure the overheating is being caused by the Holley Sniper EFI setup.   

Anyone else had this problem?

[c00nhunterjoe]

I would suggest starting a new topic with the issue at hand and what exactly is going on. From the last post i see you were at 210, but had no fan operation. That is a problem. Need more info as to how it is heating up, traffic, idle, cruise. Etc. Need to know the engine, and details of the setup

[Mad Max]

Hiya folks - killer thread - great info in here.  I have a recent '440 overheating issue' I solved recently that I think ties directly onto this thread and wanted to share my findings.  This all has to do with "RV/440-3" engines, particularly with the water pump housings, and most especially, thermostats.  Some of this will be repetitive and some not.  I think it's pretty close to accurate but welcome any clarifications.

BLUF: My 440 came from a 79 Winnebago and it has the RV water pump housing and a standard "440" water pump for a 78 Power Wagon from my local Orielly Auto Parts.  During the rebuild, not knowing any different, I tossed in a typical 180* thermostat for a 78 PW, and despite known good hardware my engine would not run 'cool' - it would always run 210-225 or so.  Then, I swapped in a RV 'skirted' thermostat that 'matches' the 440 RV pump housing, and it has been a rock-solid 180* ever since - like it hits a peg at 180* solid.

Background.  My truck is a 2002 Dakota quad cab; 78 "RV" 440 from a 79 Winnebago Motorcoach, 46RH trans w/SMR adapter, Atlas4, D60/14B, 40" Toyo's on Hutchinson beadlocks - the truck is built for rock crawling and hard-core overlanding - I call it my 'Rocklander'.  Lots of strong hardware and modern touches including Holley Sniper EFI and a CVF Racing serpentine kit.  Anyway back to the engine...

My particular 440 is date coded 1978, and because it was intended for an RV is actually has a few minor but important differences between it and a standard car or truck 440.  First, the RV 440s were designated at a 440-3, whereas I think the car/truck 440s were 440-1.  The major differences were mostly related to cooling, meaning as mentioned above two additional cooling ports at the outer edges of the cylinder walls, with (or in my case without) matching additional cooling ports in the heads, and, the big distinctive difference, the RV heads had 5/8-socket spark plugs with a non-crush-washer seal.  The heads that were on my 440 are the typical 452s with the normal 13/16-socket plugs and crush washers, so either my 440 just didn't get 'em...or more likely the owner of the RV had the heads swapped out for non-RV heads - my engine did have Fel-Pro head gaskets on it, which was not original, so the heads have at least been off - no idea if these 452's are original to the 440 but they were on it and I like 'em so I'm running 'em.  Also, and here's the kicker specifically regarding cooling - the RV 440s also received a specific water pump housing, pn# 3751216, easily distinguished by either the CB on the front inlet or the additional bypass port under the thermostat, AND...a specific/matching thermostat, which I discovered is kinda important.

RV water pump housing (note the two cast recesses for the thermostat and bypass port) -



After surfing lots of "440 overheating" threads, and focusing on the 'RV' info, I discovered that the RV applications used a specific "skirted" thermostat in conjunction with the RV water pump housing, without which makes it impossible for the engine to be cooled properly.  The RV 440's have a big coolant bypass channel within the pump housing, which when 'open' is designed to bypass the radiator and keep coolant circulating within the block/heads - warming up the engine quickly to warm up the travelers in the RV as quickly as possible.  But, when fully warmed up, the 'skirt' attached to the bottom side of the RV thermostat lowers down into the recess below it which blocks the bypass channels in the pump housing, which then directs the coolant through the radiator; without the skirted thermostat the radiator bypass port can never be blocked, which will instead just continually circulate most of the coolant within the block/heads (bypassing the radiator) - some goes into the radiator but definitely not all, which is why my 440 wasn't cooling well (it was cooling so-so, but not great) - and yep I had a standard 440-1 thermostat in there.  My intel indicates the Mr. Gasket 'stats are of marginal quality but the Milodon ones are good.  Pics of the Milodon (silver top) and Mr.G skirted thermostats -





...compared to a non-skirted 'regular/non-RV' thermostat -



But wait - there's more.  The RV water pump housing has a recess just below the top which fits the thermostat perfectly, but the non-RV pump housings do not.  And, all of the upper thermostat housings I've found have a recess in them too, which according to the books is to center the thermostat in the 440-1/non-RV applications.  Now, because the thermostat lower skirt is supposed to extend down into the lower recess and block the bypass coolant flow I chose to presume the thermostat...in the RV applications...is supposed to be placed in the pump housing itself, and not in the upper thermostat housing.  In the RV applications I don't think the thermostat is supposed to go in the upper housing, because if it did then there would be the chance of it not aligning with the lower recess, so I went with the lower/below-the-gasket placement.  So, place the skirted thermostat in the pump housing, squeeze on a good layer of UltraGrey RTV, then the gasket, more RTV, set the upper "thermostat" housing on, RTV on the bolt threads, and let lightly press everything together so the RTV makes contact with all surfaces and begins to squeeze out, wait half an hour for it to set up, then torque to a mere 18 lb/ft.  Let it sit 24 hrs minimum, then fill and fire.  
I'm pretty sure my cast iron upper thermostat housing is not for an RV application and is simply for all the 440-1 applications.  I have not yet found a genuine "440-3 thermostat housing", but if I did I'd wager there is no recess in it for the thermostat.

But still, my thermostat housing had that recess in it...or at least it used to. To try to get maximum clamping and sealing potential from it I went ahead and had a local welding shop do the proper cast iron welding to fill in the recess, and I machined it flat - actually I machined it to perfectly match the pump housing with just the slightest detectable amount of center 'rise' to get that much more clamping on the gasket.

Here is my upper thermostat housing 'filled in' -



...and sanded flat -



...and Permatex 27036 'max torque' ultra grey to seal it all up -



Results: With the non-skirted/non-RV/wrong thermostat my engine had been running between 210-225 the whole time.  But after installing the skirted thermostat it now resolutely stops cold at 180* - hasn't yet gone a degree higher   .

Anyway, hope this helps anyone else out there who may be running the RV hardware yet having cooling issues.

Cheers n beers,
- Sam