Bobby Isaac tribute car.................short tracker, no wing, no nose cone.

[BigBlackDodge]

I've been toying around with this idea for years.............make a '70 Charger painted up like Isaac's short track car. No wing, no nose.......to rich for my blood. I've found only one pic of this car on the net and its a b/w front shot of the car sliding around a dirt track....not much help there as far as markings go. Any body have a few pics of his '70 stashed away somewhere?

I love the old Grand National cars and I love Chargers...hey, why not!

Any Isaac fans out there?


BBD

[ChargerHound69]

That is funny, me and a buddy of mine were just talking about turning a 68 charger into Buddy Bakers #3 Nascar

[hemigeno]

Any Isaac fans out there?

One of the, if not the, greatest short-track Grand National drivers of all times...

He won many times more races in that '70 Charger than he did in the '69 Daytona that more people remember him in.  I don't have any more pictures of it on my hard drive though.

Personally, I'd love to see a #71 '70 Charger car - it'd be a very cool car with a great winning history.

[Mike DC]

  
That would be very cool.  Stock 2nd-gen Chargers look so cool, but you hardly ever see pictures & replicas of them in NASCAR form unless it's wing cars.

How much of a replica are you talking about making?  Doing it really convincingly would mean rollcaging it and cutting the front fenders.

 

[wLc]

Here's the '70

Here's a few of the '69

[Ghoste]

In that first pic of the 69 it looks to still have a door handle and lock cylinder.  Could that have been a promotional appearance car?

[Mike DC]

 
That's interesting.  You're right, it looks like the door handle & lock are still there.


But the rest of the car looks too legit to be a P.R. construction.  It's got fully cut-out fenders and the rear quarter wheelwells are at least radiused.  The gas filler is moved to the side.  The dahsboard is too low/flat to be a stocker.

Maybe it's just a recently swapped door.

   

[hemigeno]

FWIW, that was pic you guys are talking about with the door handle is from '68.  The pic was at Daytona, and Isaac never raced a non-aero '69 Charger at Daytona that I know of.  Even though you can't quite see the grille or the window plug area, there aren't any A-pillar covers on the car.  Didn't Isaac race the '69 500 on every racetrack once it was approved?     Not that it makes all that much difference, anyway. 

Those are very cool pics, especially that top one of the '70 where the rear tires are smoking!

[Shakey]

FWIW, that was pic you guys are talking about with the door handle is from '68.  The pic was at Daytona, and Isaac never raced a non-aero '69 Charger at Daytona that I know of.  Even though you can't quite see the grille or the window plug area, there aren't any A-pillar covers on the car.  Didn't Isaac race the '69 500 on every racetrack once it was approved?     Not that it makes all that much difference, anyway. 

Those are very cool pics, especially that top one of the '70 where the rear tires are smoking!

With the damage on the LT QTR, I would hope he is on his way to the pits for a new set of boots!

[BigBlackDodge]

 
That would be very cool.  Stock 2nd-gen Chargers look so cool, but you hardly ever see pictures & replicas of them in NASCAR form unless it's wing cars.

How much of a replica are you talking about making?  Doing it really convincingly would mean rollcaging it and cutting the front fenders.

 

I'm not planning on cutting the car up or anything...............mainly paint, stickers, tires...etc. Nothing that would prevent it from going back to stock in the future. Though a HLPAG PVC roll bar might add a touch of realism!!!!! It will be several more years more this happens..............time...........money..............well mostly money!

Thanks for the photos guys!

I found this hunting around......................a Daytona test mule. Check out that wing! Looks like something off of a Civic ricer!


BBD

[hemihead]

What you think you see is a Door Handle, it's not. It is just a piece of sheet metal over the opening where the Handle should be.They really did try to keep them stock looking for the most part.
You should read the book about Bobby.He was very much a rebel and didn't play the game the way Nascar wanted or wants its stars to play.
And the K&K was the speed machine.They built those cars mainly to win the pole.The owner wanted that car on the pole every race for the sponorship money.Isaacs idea of driving was break it,wreck it, or win it.

[hemihead]

Oh and BTW, I had to break the 2nd Gen owners hearts but the 2nd Gens were the Bricks of Nascar.The 500's came along but a short time later came the Talledega's and Spoilers and the rest is history.They just looked fast.

[hemigeno]

What you think you see is a Door Handle, it's not. It is just a piece of sheet metal over the opening where the Handle should be.They really did try to keep them stock looking for the most part.

hemihead, look at the second picture that wLc posted.  That is not a piece of sheet metal, and yes, most of us knew about that "trick" before.

Ghoste is right, that's a real door handle.

Oh, and BTW, all of the manufacturers' non-aero cars of the late '60s were bricks.  II Gen Chargers at least looked good while punching a large, semi-turbulent hole in the air.  And one more thing - the addition of the aerodynamic features to the II Gen body (i.e. Charger Daytona) produced better wind tunnel results than they could by adding any combination of aero features to a III Gen body.

[41husk]

You go Geno

[hemihead]

That's because the 3rd Gen was better to start with lol 

[hemigeno]

That's because the 3rd Gen was better to start with lol 

Hmmm, so something inferior is "better to start with"?



Must be some of that new math my kids keep telling me about...

[Dodge Don]

Oh and BTW, I had to break the 2nd Gen owners hearts but the 2nd Gens were the Bricks of Nascar.The 500's came along but a short time later came the Talledega's and Spoilers and the rest is history.They just looked fast.

Bobby Issac won more races in a 70 Charger than any wing car. Bottom line, the wing cars may be notorious but it was the 70 Charger that won the 1970 Nascar Championship.....the ONLY 2nd Gen Charger to achieve that feat....be it a 68, 69, 69 500, 69 Daytona whatever. Facts are facts.

[Ghoste]

It isn't NASCAR, but if we're talking about short track records where would Ernie Derr place in all of this?

[Shakey]

Oh and BTW, I had to break the 2nd Gen owners hearts but the 2nd Gens were the Bricks of Nascar.The 500's came along but a short time later came the Talledega's and Spoilers and the rest is history.They just looked fast.

Bobby Issac won more races in a 70 Charger than any wing car. Bottom line, the wing cars may be notorious but it was the 70 Charger that won the 1970 Nascar Championship.....the ONLY 2nd Gen Charger to achieve that feat....be it a 68, 69, 69 500, 69 Daytona whatever. Facts are facts.

Hey Don 

Feel like goin' for a beer on Friday night after the kids are in bed?   

[hemigeno]

It isn't NASCAR, but if we're talking about short track records where would Ernie Derr place in all of this?

I know he did quite well over the years, but I don't know if there's a way to compare the two "leagues".  He only ran one race in Grand National, back in 1953, so he didn't go head-to-head with the big guns too often.

Didn't he drive a '69 Charger for a good while?  Maybe I should adopt a new hero??

[wLc]

Some of Ernie Derr's rides.

[Brock Samson]

i'm no expert,..  why do some stock car racing Chargers have a wing window but most do not?.. 
great pics thanks!

[RallyeMike]

And one more thing - the addition of the aerodynamic features to the II Gen body (i.e. Charger Daytona) produced better wind tunnel results than they could by adding any combination of aero features to a III Gen body.

Bold statement Geno !

Please point me to the source of this fact.  "...any combination of aero features"  ?   ANY ?

Gen III's rocked considering their marginal aero advantage over the other manufacturers. The Daytona had no real competition in that department. And as we sqwabble over the Gen II/ Gen III superiority, don't forget that RP cleaned everyones clock in 67 in a PLYMOUTH Satellite ! The most wins (27) by FAR over any other season champion of any manufacturer including ...... Dodge 

[RallyeMike]

make a '70 Charger painted up like Isaac's short track car

Sounds pretty cool except for the part of stopping at just a paint job   

[hemigeno]

And one more thing - the addition of the aerodynamic features to the II Gen body (i.e. Charger Daytona) produced better wind tunnel results than they could by adding any combination of aero features to a III Gen body.

Bold statement Geno !

Please point me to the source of this fact.  "...any combination of aero features"  ?   ANY ?

I was waiting for someone to take the bait...  hehehe...

Below are some excerpts in blue from the Results of 3/8 Scale Wind Tunnel Tests - G-Series (1971) Dodge & Plymouth B-Bodies Aerodynamic Development for Grand National Race Cars[/b]:

With specific regard to the front end and backlight changes made to the G series (1971) & F series (1969 Daytona, as it was referred to by Chrysler as the F series racecar) cars...

Comparison of Best "G" Series Plymouths with the Daytona:

Two configurations emerge from the configurations tested which are better than the others; the "aero front end" and "12-inch nose" both having 45 square inch air inlets, flush glass and semi-fastbacks.  Data for these configurations are compared with the Daytona data in Figures 181a, 181b and 181c.  Data points are not shown for the aero front end configuration because the measured data had to be adjusted for an air inlet area change.  The "12-inch nose" exhibits the lowest axial (drag) forces, but the aero front end has slightly better lift characteristics.  Neither of these "G" Series configurations is as good as the Dodge Charger Daytona.

That's the conclusion Chrysler's own engineers came to, not me.

With specific regard to the wing, it was noted in that same report that the 10" chord (circumference measurement of the horizontal stablizier as used on the Daytona) was the most efficient generator of rear wheel negative lift (downforce).  The only way they discovered to top the Daytona in rear wheel downforce was to use a Bi-Wing design, which they did try out.  It was never approved for racing, and would almost certainly have upset the balance of the car since when you push down that hard on the rear of the car, it actually creates front end positive lift.  The single 10" chord wing used on the Daytona would have been the optimal choice for both racecars, and it exceeded the negative lift (downforce) generated by the Go-Wing design (mounted either 1.5" or 2.67" above the decklid) that was actually produced.


Like I said before, the wind tunnel results proved that the Daytona was overall a better combination aerodynamically than what they could wring out of the G-series cars.  The reason they didn't race the Daytona much in 1971 was due to Bill France limiting them to a 305cid engine.  Even still, Dick Brooks took Bill France's challenge and managed a seventh-place finish in the 1971 Daytona 500 despite a collision with Pete Hamilton's 1971 Road Runner.  Bill France got the message that the Daytona was still that good even with a small-block engine, and he told Chrysler Exec. Ronny Householder not to bother showing up at Rockingham with that car - it would have been formally outlawed had they done so.

Think about it...  a Charger Daytona with a SMALL BLOCK was able to run with the 1971 model year offerings of Ford, GM, Plymouth and Dodge - all powered by big block Hemi's, TunnelPorts, etc.

[Ghoste]

Weren't the majority of Petty's 1967 wins on short tracks and dirt?  Even the superspeedway wins would be against other boxy sedans.  Now if he ran the 67 Satellite against the aero cars and won, that would be a completely different thing.

[Mike DC]

 
I like Richard Petty and all. 
But from what I understand, he won all those races in '67 partly because of a combination of factors in his favor. 

First off, Ford was more or less boycotting the 1967 season just like Mopar did in '66.  At the same time, in 1967 Richard Petty was first to discover the advantage of stacking the car's ballast weight disproportionately onto the left side (which had not yet been ruled illegal in 1967).  And Petty's team also had the money/resources to run twice as many smaller races per year, whereas many other teams only ran for the biggest prizes in those days.

   

[RallyeMike]

I was waiting for someone to take the bait...  hehehe...

Blurbble (What sound does a fish make when it gets hooked?)   

How about a 2" chop top on the Gen III, Did they try that? That would fit into any modification. Seriously though, where can a find the full package of this this info? - looks like interesting reading. How did you get access to it? The aero stuff has a real world application for me, so I'm interested.

Think about it...  a Charger Daytona with a SMALL BLOCK was able to run with the 1971 model year offerings of Ford, GM, Plymouth and Dodge - all powered by big block Hemi's, TunnelPorts, etc.

No dispute that the Daytona had an enormous advantage over any other make. Really, although meeting Nascars written rules, they had an unfair advantage as proven beyond any doubt by the small-block 71 cars. I actually agree with Frances' decision to ban the cars which were not really "stock" cars, but specially produced vehicles for racing purposes.  It was really just a glimpse of things to come and where Nascar is today. 

At the same time, in 1967 Richard Petty was first to discover the advantage of stacking the car's ballast weight disproportionately onto the left side

Hey! If youre going to bring talent and resources into this discussion it makes it harder to argue about which car is better 

[hemigeno]

I was waiting for someone to take the bait...  hehehe...

Blurbble (What sound does a fish make when it gets hooked?)   

 

How about a 2" chop top on the Gen III, Did they try that? That would fit into any modification. Seriously though, where can a find the full package of this this info? - looks like interesting reading. How did you get access to it? The aero stuff has a real world application for me, so I'm interested.

Well, you're correct, that definitely falls under "any" modification.  That might do the trick too, although Junior Johnson (and his illegal Banana car) already went that route - I think that was 1967, but it's been a while since I read about that.  They let him race with it anyway, which caused quite an uproar at the time.  I guess I was referring to any combination of aero mods that the Chrysler engineers tested in the wind tunnel.  Hey, if you knew what my source was, you might not have nibbled on the hook!!!

I don't think the full report is available on-line, but you can get a lot of report excerpts and charts, etc. from:

http://aerowarriors.com

Click on the Table of Contents, and look for the G-series wind tunnel test reports down near the bottom of the list.  Get a comfortable chair and a cold drink, as there's a TON of good information on that site in general.

I can definitely see where you'd be interested in that subject.  Do ya think they'd let you run an aero nose and wing on your car if you showed them all the research Chrysler had put into the aero mods on the III Gens??  That would be awesome to see!!!

Think about it...  a Charger Daytona with a SMALL BLOCK was able to run with the 1971 model year offerings of Ford, GM, Plymouth and Dodge - all powered by big block Hemi's, TunnelPorts, etc.

No dispute that the Daytona had an enormous advantage over any other make. Really, although meeting Nascars written rules, they had an unfair advantage as proven beyond any doubt by the small-block 71 cars. I actually agree with Frances' decision to ban the cars which were not really "stock" cars, but specially produced vehicles for racing purposes.  It was really just a glimpse of things to come and where Nascar is today. 

Yeah, I agree - the Daytona was a purpose-built car, that had only one objective: Go fast on oval tracks.  Big Bill did see that the one-upsmanship brewing between Ford and Chrysler was going to get progressively worse, and that these special cars didn't resemble the majority of cars in showrooms and on the road.  For that same reason, I'm not nearly as big a fan of today's brand of racing - the cars bear hardly any connection to today's street cars.  At least back then, there really were Charger500's, Daytonas, Superbirds, Cyclone II Spoilers and Talladegas out on the streets.  THAT'S the cool part of the connection for me.

[BigBlackDodge]

make a '70 Charger painted up like Isaac's short track car

Sounds pretty cool except for the part of stopping at just a paint job   

Yeah, I know. But I just can't bring myself to cut it up. I still want to be able to take family out for a cruise now and then and I don't think my wife would be to keen on climbing through a window to get in! Paint, stickers, tires, exhaust............thats my idea so far.

Onto Derr.......................there was a mag article a few years back about one of his Chargers..............'69 or '70..can't remember. The car was basicly parked after a dirt track race and shoved into a barn. The car was banged up a bit and still had dirt clods wedged up in the fender wells. I think it mentioned he may have had around 500 wins through out his career.

I'll dig around and see if I can find the mag again.


BBD

[Ghoste]

 
I like Richard Petty and all. 
But from what I understand, he won all those races in '67 partly because of a combination of factors in his favor. 

First off, Ford was more or less boycotting the 1967 season just like Mopar did in '66.  At the same time, in 1967 Richard Petty was first to discover the advantage of stacking the car's ballast weight disproportionately onto the left side (which had not yet been ruled illegal in 1967).  And Petty's team also had the money/resources to run twice as many smaller races per year, whereas many other teams only ran for the biggest prizes in those days.

Two conversations going on at once but I did want to mention that Ford was back in 67.  It was 65 that Chrysler boycotted and 66 that Ford boycotted.  The ballast and money to run every track would certainly be factors in his overall total but I think his boxy Plymouth still outran the fastback Chargers on the superspeedways.

[THE CHARGER PUNK]

i like allisons daytona or plain 69 charger-MATT issacs ok great lookin in the 70 version tho

[Mike DC]

 

Ford was back in 67.  It was 65 that Chrysler boycotted and 66 that Ford boycotted

Oh yeah, youre right! 
The Ford boycott was '65 that I'm thinking of.  My bad.