Valve springs

[metallicareload99]

I'm concerned that my valve springs might be too weak for my current application:

- 440, .030 over, Trick-Flow heads
- Trick Flow dual valve springs that are stock for the head with 10° steel valve retainers. Shimmed to produce 170 lbs on the seat, 420 pounds per inch spring rate.
- Crane bushed ductile iron rockers
- Isky solid roller, 292° advertised, 258° @ 0.050, .590 lift, 0.393 lobe lift. Hot lash .028. 110° LSA. Grind R-797
- Primarily a street car

I have already put around 1300 miles with this setup, I haven't noticed any problems yet, but I have the engine tore down and now would be the time.  If a stronger spring is needed, would the Comp 933 spring be a good choice?

Comp 933
- 171 pounds @ 1.950
- 492 pounds @ 1.300
494 pounds per inch

Thanks for any advice

[68CoronetRT]

Depends. How much spring pressure can your springs handle?

I had a valve spring break on me and I'm not sure what it was rated for but I was like .33 inches of lift above what they could handle and they finally gave out.

I'd call Trick Flow and ask them about it.

[BSB67]

Probably okay.  Consider the Isky 9315 springs.  It's a better spring, but it'll cost more too.

[PRH]

You only need what you need.......and more than that just wears out parts faster.

I'd call Isky and see what they recommend for spring loads with that cam, the rocker ratio you're running, and the max rpm you want to turn and see if your current springs meet those specs.

If not...... Time for an upgrade.

Keep in mind with a solid roller........ A little too much is safer than not quite enough.

As a very general rule for a BB running a solid roller cam, I rarely would use anything less than 200/500.

[metallicareload99]

Thanks for the responses, I'm using a 1.5 rocker ratio. Because I have L2355F30 on LY rods(ARP rod bolts, main studs), I'm making an effort to keep the rpm down. But I'm guessing peak power will be around 6500 (or more?), so I'd like to make use of that rpm occasionally

Isky suggested 210 or so on the seat and around 500-550 open. Which is a lot more than I've been running. I'll order those Isky 9315 springs soon. With the Trick Flow stock installed height of 1.950, I think those Isky springs will be around 180 pounds on the seat. If I use the shims I have now, they'll be around 200 pounds on the seat with 1.900" installed height, so I think I should use them?

Also with the 0.590 lift before lash, by my math, I'll never get to the 550 lbs open pressure unless I used a spring with 600+ pounds per inch rate.

By the numbers this cam doesn't seem too extreme, but I know there is more to it than lift and duration

Thanks again

[PRH]

If you have 1.950 installed height, just use the 9365's instead of the 9315's.

[metallicareload99]

If you have 1.950 installed height, just use the 9365's instead of the 9315's.

Thanks PRH. Any reason not to get the 9365-SP springs for my application? At the moment a set of those is more easily acquired than regular 9365

[PRH]

The SP's are fine, it's just finishing process upgrade.

[metallicareload99]

Thank you for the advice!

[metallicareload99]

Update: after around 3,000+ miles it seems a few Isky 9365 springs have lost 10-20 pounds on the seat pressure    Trying to see if these are still ok? Probably not.

Looking to see if there are "better" springs out there today? Is 460 lbs/inch an acceptable rate?

[INTMD8]

Isky suggested 210 or so on the seat and around 500-550 open.

Update: after around 3,000+ miles it seems a few Isky 9365 springs have lost 10-20 pounds on the seat pressure    Trying to see if these are still ok? Probably not.

So you're now at 150 on the seat and what, 440 over the nose? (for .590 lift rather than the .650 lift open pressure you listed)

I don't think that's anywhere close to being ok.  I would run what Isky recommends as it's their cam or another quality spring to at least match their pressure recommendation.

I prefer PSI springs but there are other good brands as well.

[metallicareload99]

Isky suggested 210 or so on the seat and around 500-550 open.

Update: after around 3,000+ miles it seems a few Isky 9365 springs have lost 10-20 pounds on the seat pressure    Trying to see if these are still ok? Probably not.

So you're now at 150 on the seat and what, 440 over the nose? (for .590 lift rather than the .650 lift open pressure you listed)

I don't think that's anywhere close to being ok.  I would run what Isky recommends as it's their cam or another quality spring to at least match their pressure recommendation.

I prefer PSI springs but there are other good brands as well.

My bad, I did indeed have the Isky 9365 springs replace those softer ones I mention in my first post. The Isky 9365 were installed at 215 lbs (to the best of my memory) on the seat. I made a point of asking the machine shop to have the springs installed at the minum of the 210+ recommended on the seat.

I have been testing my springs with the LSM on engine tester (as is out of the box).  After assembling the engine I tested the springs with the LSM and most springs measured @ 180 and a few 190s. I know that didn't match what the springs were installed at, per the spring spec and what I asked the machine shop for, but they were all consistent (although reading 25-35 pounds lower consistently).

I know the LSM could have been adjusted when the springs were brand new to match what the new springs were installed at back then, but I didn't want to mess around with the testers settings. Not knowing if there is something wrong with my technique or if the tool should be "calibrated" to my particular 440? Now with the same tester, I'm measuring the springs at 160 to 180 range consistently, using the same technique

[INTMD8]

Ah, gotcha.  I've only tested springs off an engine so I have no advice to offer there. Maybe pull one to confirm installed height and to compare pressure with a bench spring tester?

[metallicareload99]

Ah, gotcha.  I've only tested springs off an engine so I have no advice to offer there. Maybe pull one to confirm installed height and to compare pressure with a bench spring tester?

Yeah, "ideally," back then I should have adjusted the LSM so it matched the 215 on seat pressure, trusting that the 1.950" installed height and 215 on the seat spec was met.

It might be best to replace all these now and check installed height. Just not too enthused about these springs maybe only lasting 3000 miles

[Challenger340]

Ah, gotcha.  I've only tested springs off an engine so I have no advice to offer there. Maybe pull one to confirm installed height and to compare pressure with a bench spring tester?

Yeah, "ideally," back then I should have adjusted the LSM so it matched the 215 on seat pressure, trusting that the 1.950" installed height and 215 on the seat spec was met.

It might be best to replace all these now and check installed height. Just not too enthused about these springs maybe only lasting 3000 miles

You are aware that there are street Roller Cam profiles ?.... and Race Roller Cam profiles ?

Camshafts calling for 200+ Seat Pressures and 500-550 Inch/Lb V/Spring rates.... are NOT designed/recommended for extended street usage.... hence those V/Springs losing pressure in that environment is quite normal ?
You are probably also very lucky....
that you didn't start 'ramping' the Lifters as V/Spring pressure decreased.... then ending up with an Oil Pan full of broken Lifter Trunions and a destroyed engine ?

Seeing as how your V/Springs were that weak ? and you were rpm'ing the engine ?
It may be a good idea to get your Roller Lifters checked/rebuilt as well if you wish to run that style of Race Roller profile on the Street

[metallicareload99]

Ah, gotcha.  I've only tested springs off an engine so I have no advice to offer there. Maybe pull one to confirm installed height and to compare pressure with a bench spring tester?

Yeah, "ideally," back then I should have adjusted the LSM so it matched the 215 on seat pressure, trusting that the 1.950" installed height and 215 on the seat spec was met.

It might be best to replace all these now and check installed height. Just not too enthused about these springs maybe only lasting 3000 miles

You are aware that there are street Roller Cam profiles ?.... and Race Roller Cam profiles ?

Camshafts calling for 200+ Seat Pressures and 500-550 Inch/Lb V/Spring rates.... are NOT designed/recommended for extended street usage.... hence those V/Springs losing pressure in that environment is quite normal ?
You are probably also very lucky....
that you didn't start 'ramping' the Lifters as V/Spring pressure decreased.... then ending up with an Oil Pan full of broken Lifter Trunions and a destroyed engine ?

Seeing as how your V/Springs were that weak ? and you were rpm'ing the engine ?
It may be a good idea to get your Roller Lifters checked/rebuilt as well if you wish to run that style of Race Roller profile on the Street

About as aware as any other ammature    I don't know how this cam fits in on the street vs race spectrum.  I hear what you are saying though. Because of what you guys are saying, and what I know about this engine I really haven't ran this engine that hard, yet...

Short story long, I was talked into this cam by the machine shop that built my short block.  My plan was solid flat tappet, but here we are

[Challenger340]

I looked up the R797 Grind, it is an Oval Track Roller with probably at least 'some' intention given to durability/reliability for the Oval Track environment, nonetheless, most probably still wanting 200+ # seat pressure and at least 500#/in rate, and IMO.... if you are going to use it in the street environment even for limited mileages yearly some DO's and DO NOT's are in order for that grind to lessen V/Spring wear & tear and fade.

Always thermally stabilize the V/Springs before any rpm whatsoever.
This means NO rpm's until the V/Springs are warm..... meaning start the engine and allow it to bump & fart around @ 1,000 rpm until the temperature gauges gets into operating range, about 10-15 minutes. Do NOT "rev" the engine during this warm up period.
Then shut the engine OFF
and allow the Heat to soak UP into the V/Springs for another 10 minutes..... because remember the only way the V/Springs warm up is by 'conducting' the heat from the Head where they sit on the V/Spring Pad.
Then, restart the Engine and away you go.

Subsequent restarts throughout the day shouldn't be a problem as long as the V/Springs are still warm..... the learning curve here for BEST V/Spring life is DO NOT "REV" COLD V/Springs !
and,
that just because the Temperature gauge come up and says 180*.... the V/Springs are still dead nuts COLD !
Remember it takes "time" for them to conduct and Heat soak before rpm'ing them !

[INTMD8]

.393 lobe and .590 at the valve is falling into race category these days?

I've ran 200 seat 450+open on many street hydraulic roller engines. Never ran into a problem on those so 200/500 doesn't seem crazy to me for a street use engine that isn't going to see 20k miles a year.

Really I'm surprised to hear that there are solid roller setups out there running significantly less than that. (or assuming that based on the above pressures being too high for -street- category)

I have mine set up at 250/600 with .630 on the intake. Only plan on a few thousand miles a year though  

[cdr]

.393 lobe and .590 at the valve is falling into race category these days?

I've ran 200 seat 450+open on many street hydraulic roller engines. Never ran into a problem on those so 200/500 doesn't seem crazy to me for a street use engine that isn't going to see 20k miles a year.

Really I'm surprised to hear that there are solid roller setups out there running significantly less than that. (or assuming that based on the above pressures being too high for -street- category)

I have mine set up at 250/600 with .630 on the intake. Only plan on a few thousand miles a year though  

all this that you have done in the past with other engines,, were they MOPARS asking for a friend . or was it LS Chevy stuff

[INTMD8]

.393 lobe and .590 at the valve is falling into race category these days?

I've ran 200 seat 450+open on many street hydraulic roller engines. Never ran into a problem on those so 200/500 doesn't seem crazy to me for a street use engine that isn't going to see 20k miles a year.

Really I'm surprised to hear that there are solid roller setups out there running significantly less than that. (or assuming that based on the above pressures being too high for -street- category)

I have mine set up at 250/600 with .630 on the intake. Only plan on a few thousand miles a year though  

all this that you have done in the past with other engines,, were they MOPARS asking for a friend . or was it LS Chevy stuff

Yes it was LS and LT.  So is an .842 lifter stronger than .903 and does a valve spring know what kind of engine it's in?  Also, what load does the lifter see with the same spring pressure with 1.7 or 1.8 rocker vs 1.5.   Asking for a friend.

[metallicareload99]

I looked up the R797 Grind, it is an Oval Track Roller with probably at least 'some' intention given to durability/reliability for the Oval Track environment, nonetheless, most probably still wanting 200+ # seat pressure and at least 500#/in rate, and IMO.... if you are going to use it in the street environment even for limited mileages yearly some DO's and DO NOT's are in order for that grind to lessen V/Spring wear & tear and fade.

Always thermally stabilize the V/Springs before any rpm whatsoever.
This means NO rpm's until the V/Springs are warm..... meaning start the engine and allow it to bump & fart around @ 1,000 rpm until the temperature gauges gets into operating range, about 10-15 minutes. Do NOT "rev" the engine during this warm up period.
Then shut the engine OFF
and allow the Heat to soak UP into the V/Springs for another 10 minutes..... because remember the only way the V/Springs warm up is by 'conducting' the heat from the Head where they sit on the V/Spring Pad.
Then, restart the Engine and away you go.

Subsequent restarts throughout the day shouldn't be a problem as long as the V/Springs are still warm..... the learning curve here for BEST V/Spring life is DO NOT "REV" COLD V/Springs !
and,
that just because the Temperature gauge come up and says 180*.... the V/Springs are still dead nuts COLD !
Remember it takes "time" for them to conduct and Heat soak before rpm'ing them !

Will do! I've used a shorter version of that warm up routine quite a bit over the years up here.

I was surprised to find that this was a oval track grind. For a MoPar. A Big Block MoPar. Who the hell races a big block MoPar this side of the bicentennial (1976 for nonamericans)?!?!

.393 lobe and .590 at the valve is falling into race category these days?

I've ran 200 seat 450+open on many street hydraulic roller engines. Never ran into a problem on those so 200/500 doesn't seem crazy to me for a street use engine that isn't going to see 20k miles a year.

Really I'm surprised to hear that there are solid roller setups out there running significantly less than that. (or assuming that based on the above pressures being too high for -street- category)

I have mine set up at 250/600 with .630 on the intake. Only plan on a few thousand miles a year though  

200/500 does seem to be the "minimum" for solid rollers.

I genuinely don't know what kind of street mileage people are getting out of their springs, regardless of make, I agree the spring doesn't know what engine it's in

[cdr]

.393 lobe and .590 at the valve is falling into race category these days?

I've ran 200 seat 450+open on many street hydraulic roller engines. Never ran into a problem on those so 200/500 doesn't seem crazy to me for a street use engine that isn't going to see 20k miles a year.

Really I'm surprised to hear that there are solid roller setups out there running significantly less than that. (or assuming that based on the above pressures being too high for -street- category)

I have mine set up at 250/600 with .630 on the intake. Only plan on a few thousand miles a year though  

all this that you have done in the past with other engines,, were they MOPARS asking for a friend . or was it LS Chevy stuff

Yes it was LS and LT.  So is an .842 lifter stronger than .903 and does a valve spring know what kind of engine it's in?  Also, what load does the lifter see with the same spring pressure with 1.7 or 1.8 rocker vs 1.5.   Asking for a friend.

Give me a BREAK LOL,,, No but oiling systems & lifter quality ,the machined SHORT lifter hole in the block that gets oblonged out of round & leaks oil pressure, Just ask Bob Challenger340 , Dwayne Porter, MYSELF with the problems I have had , you cant tell me you have not read all the problems running a hydo cam in a mopar can be, not trying to argue BUT how many miles on your Hemi, are the lifter bores BUSHED

[INTMD8]

LMAO, give you a break? I don't see how your points have any relevance to this discussion.

What is considered a streetable solid roller and comparing those pressures to hydraulics I've ran as a comparison doesn't mean I'm recommending a hydraulic roller here and has nothing to do with lifter bores that are out of round and need to be bushed.

What does the lifter bore in my engine have to do with this discussion?

I was using the hydro roller as a comparison to what I've found is streetable.

I usually don't use less than 160/400 on a hydraulic roller which led me to say, is 200/500 and .590 lift really approaching race category? As that would seem rather streetable to me unless it has crazy lobe intensity which doesn't sound like this is the case.

So then, what is considered a street solid roller? Are people running similar to what I like to see on a hydraulic setup? (160/400)  

If so, once again that would surprise me but do not know.  Maybe with a conical spring?  

Sooooo sorry CDR for discussing spring pressures on a discussion forum thread labeled "Valve springs"!!!

[cdr]

LMAO, give you a break? I don't see how your points have any relevance to this discussion.

What is considered a streetable solid roller and comparing those pressures to hydraulics I've ran as a comparison doesn't mean I'm recommending a hydraulic roller here and has nothing to do with lifter bores that are out of round and need to be bushed.

What does the lifter bore in my engine have to do with this discussion?

I was using the hydro roller as a comparison to what I've found is streetable.

I usually don't use less than 160/400 on a hydraulic roller which led me to say, is 200/500 and .590 lift really approaching race category? As that would seem rather streetable to me unless it has crazy lobe intensity which doesn't sound like this is the case.

So then, what is considered a street solid roller? Are people running similar to what I like to see on a hydraulic setup? (160/400)  

If so, once again that would surprise me but do not know.  Maybe with a conical spring?  

Sooooo sorry CDR for discussing spring pressures on a discussion forum thread labeled "Valve springs"!!!

YOU, NOT ME brought it up 
Quote from YOU

I've ran 200 seat 450+open on many street hydraulic roller engines. Never ran into a problem on those so 200/500 doesn't seem crazy to me for a street use engine that isn't going to see 20k miles a year.

[Challenger340]

LMAO, give you a break? I don't see how your points have any relevance to this discussion.

What is considered a streetable solid roller and comparing those pressures to hydraulics I've ran as a comparison doesn't mean I'm recommending a hydraulic roller here and has nothing to do with lifter bores that are out of round and need to be bushed.

What does the lifter bore in my engine have to do with this discussion?

I was using the hydro roller as a comparison to what I've found is streetable.

I usually don't use less than 160/400 on a hydraulic roller which led me to say, is 200/500 and .590 lift really approaching race category? As that would seem rather streetable to me unless it has crazy lobe intensity which doesn't sound like this is the case.

So then, what is considered a street solid roller? Are people running similar to what I like to see on a hydraulic setup? (160/400)  

If so, once again that would surprise me but do not know.  Maybe with a conical spring?  

Sooooo sorry CDR for discussing spring pressures on a discussion forum thread labeled "Valve springs"!!!

length of the Lifter Bore around the Lifter assists in Hydraulic Oil Pressure sealing..... hence, why the first consideration for Chase Knight and CRANE back in the early 80's when they did the first R & D for Ford on contract(you may remember Ford were then first to introduce HR cams in production).... was to lengthen the Lifter Bores on the production 5.0L Blocks
which...
once GM went to HR's they followed the same and lengthened their Blocks Lifter Bores for the same reason

But we're off topic.... and like the old saying "no point arguing with an idiot on the internet".... and I don't wish to be deemed an idiot in anyone else's eyes either ?
so....
I will digress anyone reading this to PHONE Comp Cams, CRANE, ISKY... or whomever they choose.... and ask them WHY they make the distinction.... and have STREET Roller Profiles and RACE Roller profiles in their catalogs ?
if all Rollers are Recommended by them for extended STREET driving ?

As always....
anyone should DO.... whatever THEY feel is best.... it's YOUR Engine !

I've ran 200 seat 450+open on many street hydraulic roller engines. Never ran into a problem on those so 200/500 doesn't seem crazy to me for a street use engine that isn't going to see 20k miles a year.
LOL
I would humbly suggest 200 seat and 500 over the nose probably NOT work real well in a BB Mopar HR application ? But I've been wrong before so knock yourself out ?
May I suggest that prior to doing so ?
you may wish to go LOOK in the BB Mopar Lifter Bore at the distance between the bottom of the Oil Gallery and the bottom of the Bore itself ? to SEE the problem trying to seal Oil Pressure against 200# seat and 500# V/Spring open pressures @ rpm ?