Thinking about fuel injection

[69Chrgr]

Id like to take a few of you Fi guys a ride in my car with my non-choke Thumperdart Carb.

And compare it to what? Will it out run a new Demon?

If i can hit the gears it will.

I have a Hellcat, and if your car can beat a Demon and is totally street legal I'm impressed.

Is NOS street legal?

Sure, no problem. You must be really quick if you're beating Demon's on the street, even with your NOS.........

[69Chrgr]

My Cuda is street legal, but not very street friendly. Small block N/A car.

[pipeliner]

I currently have a Firecore distributor and coil. The coil failed and left me stranded at the grocery store with my wife. The Firecore distributor chose to fail at the local car show for me. That was lovely. I do love the Firecore spark plug wires. The corrosion that built up in the distributor was unbelievable. The harness that plugs into the MSD from the distributor is cheap and needed help. I don't get to drive my cars as much as I would like so they sit up for a while. Then they can be a pain to start as the bowls go dry. Just my .02 cents. Drag racing, then yeah, carburetor all day long.

Well what does a man do with a box of failed MSD stuff if the Firecore stuff starts failing? No problems yet.

[pipeliner]

Id like to take a few of you Fi guys a ride in my car with my non-choke Thumperdart Carb.

And compare it to what? Will it out run a new Demon?

If i can hit the gears it will.

I have a Hellcat, and if your car can beat a Demon and is totally street legal I'm impressed.

Is NOS street legal?

Sure, no problem. You must be really quick if you're beating Demon's on the street, even with your NOS.........

Didnt say I was racing anybody. I said if i could hit the gears maybe, in my 3.91 geared T-56 Magnum. A lot of cars on the street can smoke a demon, so what.

[c00nhunterjoe]

I challenge anyone who thinks tb injectjon is the key to come for a ride with me.

I'm not into the tb injection stuff, but I'd still like to take a ride. 

Luke

Texas is a long drive, but if you are ever in the area, hit me up

[c00nhunterjoe]

Id like to take a few of you Fi guys a ride in my car with my non-choke Thumperdart Carb.

And compare it to what? Will it out run a new Demon?

If i can hit the gears it will.

I have a Hellcat, and if your car can beat a Demon and is totally street legal I'm impressed.

Mine is 100% street legal, and will eat a demon, but i would still like to have a demon.

[pipeliner]

Id like to take a few of you Fi guys a ride in my car with my non-choke Thumperdart Carb.

And compare it to what? Will it out run a new Demon?

If i can hit the gears it will.

I have a Hellcat, and if your car can beat a Demon and is totally street legal I'm impressed.

Mine is 100% street legal, and will eat a demon, but i would still like to have a demon.

Id like to take a ride In your car if I ever get to Texas lol

[69Chrgr]

Sounds good pipeliner. All in fun. My Charger would most likely beat my Hellcat also, if it could hook up. I let one of my buddies (big Oldsmobile guy) test drive the Hellcat, then I let him drive the Charger. He agreed the Charger was quicker. The Hellcat makes for a good road trip car though. I toasted the neighbors 2017 Camaro SS with cam and headers. I loved pulling past him with that dumb look on his face.

[303 Mopar]

I'll keep everyone posted on the install. I don't have the fuel rails yet as I'm swamped with customer cars at the moment. I'm just happy I finally found a Mopar 337 intake as it has the bosses for the injectors.

How many cars are sitting in a garage unused because of "simple" carb/ignition problems? I agree that the foundation and initial setup is important but, in my experience, carbs and factory ignition are prone to breaking outright or going out of adjustment. I like to drive - I don't want to be a master mechanic.

I should also point out that gas I have available to me sucks (especially for old cars). I cannot get gas that doesn't contain Ethanol without driving 41 miles to the nearest "marine" fuel station. I've rebuilt the Six Pack 3 times in 4 years - primarily to clean out the residue left behind when all the gas evaporates after shutting the engine off. The 2bbl currently in my Mustang has been rebuilt twice in 9 years but generally runs fine. The Ethanol also like to eat the rubber hoses which can cause weird drivability problems. Most EFI systems run a closed fuel system so these sorts of problems are mitigated (particularly the evaporation).

I also drive anywhere from February to November - as long as the salt is cleared off the roads. Temperatures range from 35-105 degrees. Humidity is almost always present but can be 40-100%. I see guys adjusting carbs at the track several times in the same day. Even though my cars are reasonably "happy" I can tell they're rarely running at peak performance from day to day. Currently they seem really happy at around 60 degrees with dry weather (perfect for fall!). EFI not only self adjusts for these changes, start up is so much easier - especially after sitting for a couple weeks or more.

I have a pile of broken Mopar Orange boxes - and I'm not alone as it's typically recommended that you carry a spare. A simple Google search reveals just how big of an issue this is. Sadly, this is the "upgrade" to the factory points. I went so far as to purchase an MSD box (and, alternatively, a REV-N-NATOR but it didn't like leaving the vacuum advance) and a Firecore distributor for one car but, if you're trying to look reasonably stock this isn't a solution. The Fi-Tech is practically hidden and includes timing control - although the ignition "map" is very limited (I think it's 3x3). But hey, if it doesn't leave me stranded at very inopportune times I can live with it.

I'm building a MegaSquirt port injection system for the next car. I can see a time in the near future where none of my cars will have carbs.

Troy

I wouldn't care to eventually go Fi if somebody could just nail it. You can also do a a simple google on Fi problems on these old motors and it's staggering. I drive all year round like you as long as they are no salt. I run the Rev N Nator, matching Firecore alt and 50 wires and No Vacuum as recommended. 850 Proform by Thumperdart and a Innovate Dual Wideband to keep my Carb running at its peak. I would love to test the performance of a Fi System against my set up.

The Edelbrock Pro-Flo 3 looks like a nice set up, and they are dropping the price.  Anyone know if these would fit under our minimal hood clearance? 
http://moparconnectionmagazine.com/upgrade-to-efi-today-edelbrock-reduces-pricing-on-pro-flo-3-efi-systems/

[BLK 68 R/T]

Looks as though the Pro-Flo is only available for the small block  Neither summit or jegs show the BB version as in stock or even available to order.

[alfaitalia]

Id like to take a few of you Fi guys a ride in my car with my non-choke Thumperdart Carb.

And compare it to what? Will it out run a new Demon?

If i can hit the gears it will.

I have a Hellcat, and if your car can beat a Demon and is totally street legal I'm impressed.

Is NOS street legal?

Yes...well it is in the UK!

[Troy]

How many cars are sitting in a garage unused because of "simple" carb/ignition problems? I agree that the foundation and initial setup is important but, in my experience, carbs and factory ignition are prone to breaking outright or going out of adjustment. I like to drive - I don't want to be a master mechanic.

I should also point out that gas I have available to me sucks (especially for old cars). I cannot get gas that doesn't contain Ethanol without driving 41 miles to the nearest "marine" fuel station. I've rebuilt the Six Pack 3 times in 4 years - primarily to clean out the residue left behind when all the gas evaporates after shutting the engine off. The 2bbl currently in my Mustang has been rebuilt twice in 9 years but generally runs fine. The Ethanol also like to eat the rubber hoses which can cause weird drivability problems. Most EFI systems run a closed fuel system so these sorts of problems are mitigated (particularly the evaporation).

I also drive anywhere from February to November - as long as the salt is cleared off the roads. Temperatures range from 35-105 degrees. Humidity is almost always present but can be 40-100%. I see guys adjusting carbs at the track several times in the same day. Even though my cars are reasonably "happy" I can tell they're rarely running at peak performance from day to day. Currently they seem really happy at around 60 degrees with dry weather (perfect for fall!). EFI not only self adjusts for these changes, start up is so much easier - especially after sitting for a couple weeks or more.

I have a pile of broken Mopar Orange boxes - and I'm not alone as it's typically recommended that you carry a spare. A simple Google search reveals just how big of an issue this is. Sadly, this is the "upgrade" to the factory points. I went so far as to purchase an MSD box (and, alternatively, a REV-N-NATOR but it didn't like leaving the vacuum advance) and a Firecore distributor for one car but, if you're trying to look reasonably stock this isn't a solution. The Fi-Tech is practically hidden and includes timing control - although the ignition "map" is very limited (I think it's 3x3). But hey, if it doesn't leave me stranded at very inopportune times I can live with it.

I'm building a MegaSquirt port injection system for the next car. I can see a time in the near future where none of my cars will have carbs.

Troy

I wouldn't care to eventually go Fi if somebody could just nail it. You can also do a a simple google on Fi problems on these old motors and it's staggering. I drive all year round like you as long as they are no salt. I run the Rev N Nator, matching Firecore alt and 50 wires and No Vacuum as recommended. 850 Proform by Thumperdart and a Innovate Dual Wideband to keep my Carb running at its peak. I would love to test the performance of a Fi System against my set up.

I don't think I mentioned "performance" anywhere. But honestly, let's pretend EFI performance is some random number like 95% of the perfectly tuned carb. I'd still take it because it will be 95% consistently where that carb will most certainly not be. If you've got a wideband I'm sure you've seen this (and, also assumes you're fiddling with the carb making adjustments based on the readings). The reason I am a fan are all the other ways EFI makes my life a bit more hassle free: consistent starts, cold starts, hot starts, no fumes, and adjusts for temp, altitude, and humidity. And I can "tune" the car from the front seat without tools or snapping bolts/rounding off fasteners (my current favorite pasttime).

I believe a lot of the high end EFI systems (FAST, etc.) are pretty much dialed in. Particularly if they are professionally installed. Outside of drag racing, most other forms of racing (and even homebuilt airplanes) won't consider carbs. I can find many, many more "issues" with carbs in a Google search than aftermarket EFI. Probably because the install base is way larger but I see a lot of "success" stories for the number of failures.

I still have carbs on the majority of my cars but I feel like I experience more frustration and spend more time than I'd like on the maintenance. Whether this is related to sitting too long, driving too much, fuel quality, after market part quality or whatever it's a pain.

I see that many people advocating carbs are using non-factory fuel and ignition setups any way. The last super duper adjustable carb I bought was about $700 (a decent Six Pack is much more than that) and, if you have to upgrade the lines/pumps etc. to match, a TBI system is very competitively priced. On the other hand, used intakes and 4bbl carbs are everywhere if you don't mind rebuilding them on your own. But working with old, used parts is probably the #1 contributor to "what's wrong with my car" threads.

Troy

[pipeliner]

I can see myself going Fi. I love all of the things you mentioned but I don't have all of the problems like most other people do who run carbs and that's what I mostly meant with performance. Even with No Choke cold starts are great, hot starts are even better and I only change jets twice a year but maybe in a few years I will start looking at them again. Just not interested right now, my car runs great. I run 93 octane and haven't had any bad gas yet knock on wood.

[toocheaptosmoke]

I'm running a magnum 318 from a later model truck, it was converted over to carb with a dual plane intake, and stock internals beyond that.   I fought with lean spots during off idle and light throttle tip in along with rich conditions at WOT for months.  Ran multiple q-jets (which I like), switched to a summit knockoff, now have a box full of jets, power valves, and needles, but was never able to get it truly tuned right.   Had a wideband O2 sensor, you could see and feel what was happening.   I eventually chose to try the Fitech instead of buying yet another carb, and pieced the fuel system together on the cheap.  The engine ran much better with that system than any carb was able to, but the issues were never totally gone.  In the end I believe it was a combination of stock heads and cam along with the intake that was causing the issues.  It seems that other people who tried the same combo of parts also had similar problems.  This summer I put in a different cam, ported the heads, and put on a single plane intake.  BAM, no more issues, it's like a different engine... 

The FI was able to do a fair job of making a poor engine combo run fairly decent.   Definitely not an ideal situation, but I'm sure it happens pretty often...  As much as it sucks calling it a "band aid" repair, it worked well enough to keep driving the car.   If I knew then what I know now, I would have just replaced the cam/intake and stayed with a carb.   But, it sure was nice just hitting a few buttons and letting the system retune after the engine mods.    Reliability of the system is my biggest concern, and if I was taking the car on a cross country trip I would probably have a carb in the trunk for backup just in case. 

[John_Kunkel]

I don't think I mentioned "performance" anywhere. But honestly, let's pretend EFI performance is some random number like 95% of the perfectly tuned carb. I'd still take it because it will be 95% consistently where that carb will most certainly not be.

The most worthwhile three sentences in this whole thread.

[JR]

I don't think I mentioned "performance" anywhere. But honestly, let's pretend EFI performance is some random number like 95% of the perfectly tuned carb. I'd still take it because it will be 95% consistently where that carb will most certainly not be.

The most worthwhile three sentences in this whole thread.

I agree 100%.

[c00nhunterjoe]

Since efi is the way of the future, carbs are old technology and should be shelved because noone wants to "tinker" i assume you are all running rack and pinions, coilovers and fully electronic 4l80e conversions also correct? 727s are old technology, noone wants to drop pans to change fluid and adjust bands, and who the heck would want a steering box? Torsion bars? Eek.

   You talk about ignoring tbe drag racing and other modified circuut use, and refer to stock type builds. I dont recall people constantly rejetting the carbs and ignition curves on their daily drivers prior to fuel injection coming out. It still goes back to user error in my book if your car is always falling apart and a throttle body is not going to fix that. Carrying a spare ballast resistor in the glove box is alot easier and cheaper then a spare self contained efi unit.

[69Chrgr]

Since efi is the way of the future, carbs are old technology and should be shelved because noone wants to "tinker" i assume you are all running rack and pinions, coilovers and fully electronic 4l80e conversions also correct? 727s are old technology, noone wants to drop pans to change fluid and adjust bands, and who the heck would want a steering box? Torsion bars? Eek.

   You talk about ignoring tbe drag racing and other modified circuut use, and refer to stock type builds. I dont recall people constantly rejetting the carbs and ignition curves on their daily drivers prior to fuel injection coming out. It still goes back to user error in my book if your car is always falling apart and a throttle body is not going to fix that. Carrying a spare ballast resistor in the glove box is alot easier and cheaper then a spare self contained efi unit.

No way would I ever insinuate "shelving" carbs, torsion bars, etc. I have a business and work on all makes of musclecars and hot rods, and know my way around them fairly well. They work great in most cases. I have a customer with an extremely nice 55 Chevy with a stroker small block that he brought to me wanting FI. I told him to let me try to tune the engine first, and after replacing the POS Proform HEI, using a timing light and a vacuum gauge it runs flawless. However on the other side, we need to embrace some of the new technology and not stay stuck on older technology or we will go the way of the AMC guys (which I have worked on and like also). I for one want to be able to cruise to different events with my friends on the interstate and not tax the shit out of my engine at 3000 RPM's for 50 to 60 miles in between car shows and cruise nights. I also want to be able to stop the dam thing, hence disc brakes all the way around. If I had to do my car over, yeah, I'd gone with an RMS coil over also. I like the old technology as I like to make it as best as I can. But I also want a little reality and improvement of new technology. I also think that we as a Mopar community should start considering embracing the Gen 3 Hemis, as I have seen if you want stupid power it can be easily had.

[c00nhunterjoe]

Since efi is the way of the future, carbs are old technology and should be shelved because noone wants to "tinker" i assume you are all running rack and pinions, coilovers and fully electronic 4l80e conversions also correct? 727s are old technology, noone wants to drop pans to change fluid and adjust bands, and who the heck would want a steering box? Torsion bars? Eek.

   You talk about ignoring tbe drag racing and other modified circuut use, and refer to stock type builds. I dont recall people constantly rejetting the carbs and ignition curves on their daily drivers prior to fuel injection coming out. It still goes back to user error in my book if your car is always falling apart and a throttle body is not going to fix that. Carrying a spare ballast resistor in the glove box is alot easier and cheaper then a spare self contained efi unit.

No way would I ever insinuate "shelving" carbs, torsion bars, etc. I have a business and work on all makes of musclecars and hot rods, and know my way around them fairly well. They work great in most cases. I have a customer with an extremely nice 55 Chevy with a stroker small block that he brought to me wanting FI. I told him to let me try to tune the engine first, and after replacing the POS Proform HEI, using a timing light and a vacuum gauge it runs flawless. However on the other side, we need to embrace some of the new technology and not stay stuck on older technology or we will go the way of the AMC guys (which I have worked on and like also). I for one want to be able to cruise to different events with my friends on the interstate and not tax the shit out of my engine at 3000 RPM's for 50 to 60 miles in between car shows and cruise nights. I also want to be able to stop the dam thing, hence disc brakes all the way around. If I had to do my car over, yeah, I'd gone with an RMS coil over also. I like the old technology as I like to make it as best as I can. But I also want a little reality and improvement of new technology. I also think that we as a Mopar community should start considering embracing the Gen 3 Hemis, as I have seen if you want stupid power it can be easily had.

I agree. 

[Mike DC]

      


Carbs - Are we talking about a 40yo Holley double-pumper that you bought for $150 because it looked cool, with manual choke, sized for 6000 rpm, and tuned by your uncle Larry, 6 months ago when the weather was 50 degrees different?  Or are we talking a brand new TQ- or QJ-style carb with an electric choke that is sized for your motor at 3500 rpm?  

It's not very fair to compare uncle Larry's dragstrip carb to a brand new EFI setup where you spent $2000 and followed all the directions right.  


Granted, EFI is still superior.  I'm just saying some carbs are better than others.
         
           

[69wannabe]

I agree that the EFI may be more efficient but like joe said it's easier to stick an extra orange box and resistor in the glove box than it is to have an extra throttle body laying around if something fails. This is the reason I went back to my carburetor and traded the Fi tech for a paint job on my truck. My old car runs pretty good for it to be just tuned by the way it runs out, if it stumbles while cruising I jet it up a couple of sizes and see how that does. If I think it needs bigger pump squirters I swap them and see how it does. It's old school trial and error but once I got it running good I haven't had to mess with it since (knock on wood) I am running a newer classic holley 850 DP carb and it works good, I say newer but I bought it in 2012 I think. Anyway it all goes back to preference, I prefer my carb and have always like tinkering with them in general doesn't matter if it's a holley, edelbrock, carter, or whatever I have always like carburetors. There are better quality carbs out there so if you buy the cheapest one you have a 50/50 chance that it may work good or not. I bought a quick fuel 600 black diamond carb for my truck to replace the old factory holley that was on it and the new carb worked pretty dang good out of the box. Once I let it settle in I noticed it had a little lean stumble so I jetted it up 2 sizes and it may could use one more size but it made the stumble disappear for the most part. Carbs, efi, whatever makes it run good works for me.......

[69Chrgr]

Nothing wrong with a well tuned carb. My Charger has an AED 1000 CFM 4150 and My Cuda has a QF 850 DP. Both are great carbs. It's funny as I get customers with Holley carbs and say they want an Edelbrock carb and that those Holleys are no dam good. Then I get the other customers with Edelbrock carbs and say those dam Edelbrock carbs are no dam good. Then I break out the timing light and vacuum gauge and fix what was actually wrong in the first place while the carburetor gets blamed for everything. Lol. 

[69wannabe]

Nothing wrong with a well tuned carb. My Charger has an AED 1000 CFM 4150 and My Cuda has a QF 850 DP. Both are great carbs. It's funny as I get customers with Holley carbs and say they want an Edelbrock carb and that those Holleys are no dam good. Then I get the other customers with Edelbrock carbs and say those dam Edelbrock carbs are no dam good. Then I break out the timing light and vacuum gauge and fix what was actually wrong in the first place while the carburetor gets blamed for everything. Lol.  

That is very true!!!! My buddy has a 69 charger with a 383, I rebuilt the engine several years ago and it really hasn't ran good since they put the engine back in it. It needed some fine tuning and I think it had some head issues since the heads were some he bought that were supposed to be ready to bolt on but we all know how that goes. I tried and tried to talk him through checking this and that and after he bought two carburetors and two distributors I figured I had better see what was going on with it. The first distributor was one I sold him out of my 383 and it was a good mopar distributor that I ran for several years with no problem.

After selling him the heads off of my engine that I knew were 100% good heads they still couldn't get it to run good so I finally got caught up with some of my projects and told him to get it to me and I would see if I could figure out what was going on with it.

Got the car here and set the new distributor up that he had bought and set the air gap, replaced the old coil with a new MSD blaster 2 coil and matching resistor and replaced the burnt up plug wires with new MSD street fire wires. Replaced all the spark plugs with new NGK XR5's and put a new mopar orange box on in place of the no name module box that was on it. Done some minor adjusting on the carb and got it running and it was pretty much fine after that.

No tellin how much money was spent swapping parts when I think it really just needed a good ignition system tune up since the fuel system seemed to be pretty solid.

I have had a few holley's and edelbrock's that were just junk and I couldn't get them to run no matter what I tried but most of the time they usually come around. I like the AED and quick fuel carbs since they are a better quality carb than your regular holley or edelbrock. Of the few holley double pumper carbs I have owned they seem to be pretty good carbs too.

[INTMD8]

So after no email response I finally called Fitech.  I asked if they could send me the tuning software so I could look it over.  "we don't offer that separately"

Ah, ok, I won't have much use for it on anything else, just want to see how much access I have.  Can you at least send me some screen shots?

"no, but you can search online"

I just hung up, so annoying. 

Holley sniper is supposed to be releasing a 2x4 setup but not available yet.   I  was given a list of part numbers to put together a dual throttle body system ran by an HP ecu that added up to 3500+.

Seems like a lot of bad reviews on the fast ez efi.

I thought about adapting a GM 411 ecu but for looks only don't really want multi port and fuel rails, though at this point may be the best -budget- option.

The more I look over the options the more I think dual carbs are in my future.

[Slider]

I thought about EFI after a failed distributor, MSD box, stripped threads in the bowls of the Holley 750 DP from changing out jets and power valves etc. etc.

Made the jump to EFI but wanted more than the throttle body systems could allow: twin channel oxy sensors, 8 Channel thermocouple Interface, unlimited HP tuning. launch control, traction control, transmission control, two step nitrous, cold start, hot start, every modern day sensor and the ability to display any and all information from the engine.

Megasquirt does all this and more for the same price as a throttle body unit. Drawbacks are, you do have to put some effort into putting the system together as it doesn't come as a package unit. Most all the parts you need are in the junkyard though. Even the injectors. An LS truck gave up the injectors (decapped flowing 62lb) and the coils, sensors mostly from a Saturn, 92mm throttle plate off Ebay, serpentine belt system from a 2002 Durango. And after a ton of fun digging up the parts and putting the thing together and installing on the old 440 what a huge difference. Better gas mileage, better throttle response, better starting and tuning? How about switching from stock heads to Trick flow 240's. 5 minutes on the computer instead of hours on the distributor and carburetor and she fired and ran pretty good. The system even tunes itself as you drive. Personally I will never go back.

In a nutshell the advantages I wanted from EFI: tune ability, flexibility, cheap and the ability to monitor the engine 100%. And EFI can give you just as much performance as any Carburetor.

https://www.instagram.com/p/BfrcCHBBRru/?taken-by=pulverizerv

Many thanks to redmist for the fantastic posts of his build: inspired me to follow his footsteps

http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,99432.0.html