Thinking about fuel injection

[Ryan.C]

http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,99432.0.html

[John_Kunkel]

So if you cant handle the basic setup on a carb system, whats the difference setting up the basics on fuel injection?

The difference is you do the basics ONCE and then forget it. With a carb how many times are you inside the bowl with jet changes? How many times inside the distributor to make advance changes?

The basics come before the laptop...... just saying.

You're hung up on this "laptop" thing, think hand-held controller smaller than a pack of cigarettes. Make changes without opening the hood.

[c00nhunterjoe]

So if you cant handle the basic setup on a carb system, whats the difference setting up the basics on fuel injection?

The difference is you do the basics ONCE and then forget it. With a carb how many times are you inside the bowl with jet changes? How many times inside the distributor to make advance changes?

The basics come before the laptop...... just saying.

You're hung up on this "laptop" thing, think hand-held controller smaller than a pack of cigarettes. Make changes without opening the hood.

I can honestly say 1 time. In 17 years of abuse on my 383, i opened the carb up once for a needle and seat change that was my fault, and the distributor was weighted and sprung when i installed it the 1st time. Its not rocket science and you shouldnt need to be constantly adjusting your car.

And i am definatly not hung up on a lap top thing. I have written the programs that were flashed to your handheld tuner, and that is done on a laptop. As i have said to you before john, i am not an old carb dinosaur man that wont give up on ancient technology as you like to point out. I am well versed in carbs and modern injection.

[pipeliner]

Id like to take a few of you Fi guys a ride in my car with my non-choke Thumperdart Carb.

[c00nhunterjoe]

Id like to take a few of you Fi guys a ride in my car with my non-choke Thumperdart Carb.

[69Chrgr]

I have about $750 worth of work on my Mopar 337 intake. This includes price of intake and porting by Larry Smith at Flow Tech. Holley HP system is about $2300.00. Then you have to buy Edelbrock Fuel rails as they are the correct length for BBM at about $110. A set of 8 66 lbs injectors is about $425.00. I bought a Holley Dual Sync distributor (you don't have to but I think it is best to work with the computer) from Andy Finkbeiner for $350.00. I already have a Weldon electric fuel pump so I'm good there as it is compatible with fuel injection. Most likely about $4500 to $5000 going from carb to FI. I've installed a Fitech on a 496 BBC for a customer with a 57 Chevy, and just completed an Edelbrock E-Street V2 on his Eddy headed 440 I built for his 74 Cuda. I've seen the improvements on both cars, and that's just with a TBI setup style fuel injection system. The power under the curve and part throttle performance, cold start, etc. are unbelievable compared to any of my QF or AED carbs. I can only think multiport would be that much better. My car will be sort of a test bed for future customer installs so I can have everything figured out.

[69Chrgr]

This is the eddy headed 440 I built for a customer with the Edelbrock E-Street V2 I just built and installed.....

[JR]

People have different priorities, uses, and needs out of their builds. A carb works fine for you Joe, and that's great, but it doesn't mean anyone else is wrong for going TBI.

I find soft springs rates, high stall converters, and large drag racing cams to be awful personally, but for some people, they are perfect. And I get it, different priorities for different people.

For my needs, and many other people's, the TBI is fantastic. 

[c00nhunterjoe]

People have different priorities, uses, and needs out of their builds. A carb works fine for you Joe, and that's great, but it doesn't mean anyone else is wrong for going TBI.

I find soft springs rates, high stall converters, and large drag racing cams to be awful personally, but for some people, they are perfect. And I get it, different priorities for different people.

For my needs, and many other people's, the TBI is fantastic. 

Never said anyone was wrong for going to injection. Re read my posts. I have said over and over that i like and enjoy fuel injection. I am trying to caution people before making the jump. Fix your issues at hand before converting. Save yourself the headaches. If your fuel is boiling in a carb system, its going to boil in the tb as well. Fix the boil issue 1st which is usually as simple as moving a fuel line or insulating the carb/ intake. If the timing is off, fix it. You will have to sync the distributor with the injection anyway so again, save the hair pulling when the same issues are at hand after the swap.
     How many posts have you seen on these boards that start out with "my car ran great until i did a tuneup and now its missing" etc. Well, if it ran good before and you touched it, 99.9% of the time, its what you changed. Over and over we see people throwing parts and money at their cars chasing down simple problema. All im trying to say is get it right before you start changing things.
     And for the record, i have dedicated drag cars, a nasty street/strip car AND dedicated stock street cruisers. I like them all and they all serve their purposes.

[comet_666]

Good advice c00nhunterjoe

[pipeliner]

For people who can't tune just go Fi and then all of your problems will be solved 

[comet_666]

I can't tune....but I will learn lol

[Troy]

How many cars are sitting in a garage unused because of "simple" carb/ignition problems? I agree that the foundation and initial setup is important but, in my experience, carbs and factory ignition are prone to breaking outright or going out of adjustment. I like to drive - I don't want to be a master mechanic.

I should also point out that gas I have available to me sucks (especially for old cars). I cannot get gas that doesn't contain Ethanol without driving 41 miles to the nearest "marine" fuel station. I've rebuilt the Six Pack 3 times in 4 years - primarily to clean out the residue left behind when all the gas evaporates after shutting the engine off. The 2bbl currently in my Mustang has been rebuilt twice in 9 years but generally runs fine. The Ethanol also like to eat the rubber hoses which can cause weird drivability problems. Most EFI systems run a closed fuel system so these sorts of problems are mitigated (particularly the evaporation).

I also drive anywhere from February to November - as long as the salt is cleared off the roads. Temperatures range from 35-105 degrees. Humidity is almost always present but can be 40-100%. I see guys adjusting carbs at the track several times in the same day. Even though my cars are reasonably "happy" I can tell they're rarely running at peak performance from day to day. Currently they seem really happy at around 60 degrees with dry weather (perfect for fall!). EFI not only self adjusts for these changes, start up is so much easier - especially after sitting for a couple weeks or more.

I have a pile of broken Mopar Orange boxes - and I'm not alone as it's typically recommended that you carry a spare. A simple Google search reveals just how big of an issue this is. Sadly, this is the "upgrade" to the factory points. I went so far as to purchase an MSD box (and, alternatively, a REV-N-NATOR but it didn't like leaving the vacuum advance) and a Firecore distributor for one car but, if you're trying to look reasonably stock this isn't a solution. The Fi-Tech is practically hidden and includes timing control - although the ignition "map" is very limited (I think it's 3x3). But hey, if it doesn't leave me stranded at very inopportune times I can live with it.

I'm building a MegaSquirt port injection system for the next car. I can see a time in the near future where none of my cars will have carbs.

Troy

[c00nhunterjoe]

I live in md, i have the same temp spread and humidity changes, i have the same garbage gas at the pumps. Ive also seen the same guys at the track tearing down carbs and changing everything.... and the car runs the same et.... none of my carbs get opened up. None of them change their own settings and require constant repair. My distributors dont move. My valves dont become out of adjustment. I have 4 cars of my own that all respond the same, my friends cars that i set up are also the same- set it and forget it. I am still at a loss to the guys that are always changing carbs, adjusting timing and pulling valve covers. Thats not how its supposed to work.

[comet_666]

I am not sure either. I had a problem last spring when the car would not start all the time..no spark...come to find out the Firecore Dist reluctor gap was too much. I adjusted that back to spec and then had to reset timing as well as track down a few missing vacuum caps on the carb that deteriorated for some reason. After that it ran great..better than it ever did. As the season progressed it started running rough, had to clean the plugs a few times. At the end of the season it died on me driving down the road...waited a few min and started it back up and got back home. I was told to try different gas and maybe put a spacer on intake. So..while it sits until spring I wanted to see what everyone here thought about it as well as FI. But you are right..I would think it should be set it and forget it.

[komninon]

hey 69chrgr what is the length  of your fuel rails?
do you have a part # thanks
also did you install the new holley dist? did you have to grind the  ez heads?
thank you George

[John_Kunkel]

Id like to take a few of you Fi guys a ride in my car with my non-choke Thumperdart Carb.

And compare it to what? Will it out run a new Demon?

[303 Mopar]

I have about $750 worth of work on my Mopar 337 intake. This includes price of intake and porting by Larry Smith at Flow Tech. Holley HP system is about $2300.00. Then you have to buy Edelbrock Fuel rails as they are the correct length for BBM at about $110. A set of 8 66 lbs injectors is about $425.00. I bought a Holley Dual Sync distributor (you don't have to but I think it is best to work with the computer) from Andy Finkbeiner for $350.00. I already have a Weldon electric fuel pump so I'm good there as it is compatible with fuel injection. Most likely about $4500 to $5000 going from carb to FI. I've installed a Fitech on a 496 BBC for a customer with a 57 Chevy, and just completed an Edelbrock E-Street V2 on his Eddy headed 440 I built for his 74 Cuda. I've seen the improvements on both cars, and that's just with a TBI setup style fuel injection system. The power under the curve and part throttle performance, cold start, etc. are unbelievable compared to any of my QF or AED carbs. I can only think multiport would be that much better. My car will be sort of a test bed for future customer installs so I can have everything figured out.

Thank you!  Please post before and after performance numbers too.  If I go EFI, multi-port will be the plan.   

[lukedukem]

I challenge anyone who thinks tb injectjon is the key to come for a ride with me.

I'm not into the tb injection stuff, but I'd still like to take a ride. 

Luke

[69Chrgr]

I'll keep everyone posted on the install. I don't have the fuel rails yet as I'm swamped with customer cars at the moment. I'm just happy I finally found a Mopar 337 intake as it has the bosses for the injectors.

[pipeliner]

Id like to take a few of you Fi guys a ride in my car with my non-choke Thumperdart Carb.

And compare it to what? Will it out run a new Demon?

If i can hit the gears it will.

[69Chrgr]

Id like to take a few of you Fi guys a ride in my car with my non-choke Thumperdart Carb.

And compare it to what? Will it out run a new Demon?

If i can hit the gears it will.

I have a Hellcat, and if your car can beat a Demon and is totally street legal I'm impressed.

[pipeliner]

How many cars are sitting in a garage unused because of "simple" carb/ignition problems? I agree that the foundation and initial setup is important but, in my experience, carbs and factory ignition are prone to breaking outright or going out of adjustment. I like to drive - I don't want to be a master mechanic.

I should also point out that gas I have available to me sucks (especially for old cars). I cannot get gas that doesn't contain Ethanol without driving 41 miles to the nearest "marine" fuel station. I've rebuilt the Six Pack 3 times in 4 years - primarily to clean out the residue left behind when all the gas evaporates after shutting the engine off. The 2bbl currently in my Mustang has been rebuilt twice in 9 years but generally runs fine. The Ethanol also like to eat the rubber hoses which can cause weird drivability problems. Most EFI systems run a closed fuel system so these sorts of problems are mitigated (particularly the evaporation).

I also drive anywhere from February to November - as long as the salt is cleared off the roads. Temperatures range from 35-105 degrees. Humidity is almost always present but can be 40-100%. I see guys adjusting carbs at the track several times in the same day. Even though my cars are reasonably "happy" I can tell they're rarely running at peak performance from day to day. Currently they seem really happy at around 60 degrees with dry weather (perfect for fall!). EFI not only self adjusts for these changes, start up is so much easier - especially after sitting for a couple weeks or more.

I have a pile of broken Mopar Orange boxes - and I'm not alone as it's typically recommended that you carry a spare. A simple Google search reveals just how big of an issue this is. Sadly, this is the "upgrade" to the factory points. I went so far as to purchase an MSD box (and, alternatively, a REV-N-NATOR but it didn't like leaving the vacuum advance) and a Firecore distributor for one car but, if you're trying to look reasonably stock this isn't a solution. The Fi-Tech is practically hidden and includes timing control - although the ignition "map" is very limited (I think it's 3x3). But hey, if it doesn't leave me stranded at very inopportune times I can live with it.

I'm building a MegaSquirt port injection system for the next car. I can see a time in the near future where none of my cars will have carbs.

Troy

I wouldn't care to eventually go Fi if somebody could just nail it. You can also do a a simple google on Fi problems on these old motors and it's staggering. I drive all year round like you as long as they are no salt. I run the Rev N Nator, matching Firecore alt and 50 wires and No Vacuum as recommended. 850 Proform by Thumperdart and a Innovate Dual Wideband to keep my Carb running at its peak. I would love to test the performance of a Fi System against my set up.

[pipeliner]

Id like to take a few of you Fi guys a ride in my car with my non-choke Thumperdart Carb.

And compare it to what? Will it out run a new Demon?

If i can hit the gears it will.

I have a Hellcat, and if your car can beat a Demon and is totally street legal I'm impressed.

Is NOS street legal?

[69Chrgr]

I currently have a Firecore distributor and coil. The coil failed and left me stranded at the grocery store with my wife. The Firecore distributor chose to fail at the local car show for me. That was lovely. I do love the Firecore spark plug wires. The corrosion that built up in the distributor was unbelievable. The harness that plugs into the MSD from the distributor is cheap and needed help. I don't get to drive my cars as much as I would like so they sit up for a while. Then they can be a pain to start as the bowls go dry. Just my .02 cents. Drag racing, then yeah, carburetor all day long.