Philosophical question on Concourse OEM standard and the Hemi Charger 500

[Dragon Slayer]

Folks on this forum seem to be incredibly knowledgeable on aero cars, former owners, technical details and such.  It is amazing to me how some folks can post picture of paper advertisement on a car ad from the 80s.  It seem some have spent a life time tracking and organizing this data as a hobby.

Having said that, there still seems to be areas wrt #, specific parts, part numbers and such that no conclusive answer seems to exist.

Being new this area of the hobby, it is really harder to accurately determine what is right and what is wrong if your shooting for a concourse correct OEM perfect car.  Besides the unobtainable parts that you would have to source as reproduction, there are still parts that seem to be available but no one can really say what is correct with absolute authority.

A couple of areas that peak my interest, and I am focused on the 69 Hemi cars.  Is production line water pump, Federal Power Steering pump and hose, alternator, distributor as examples.

Some of these items are listed both in Service manual and parts manuals with specific part numbers that match.  Match in both documents, and match as production line versus over the counter OEM NOS.  Carbs, distributor fall into this category.  Others like Power Steering pumps and Water pumps have part numbers but casting numbers are the only discriminator.  And there are significant variations in this area, many times without a date code.

Then you have the alternator.  A simple part that really only had 3 variations in amperage, and in fact in may cases all the separate parts where the same part number.  But here we have supposedly production line part numbers that are not even in the parts book, and generic over the counter part numbers apply.  In some cases the same part number for alternator with pulley, listed with 2 different pulleys.  How can you track that at the parts counter or in accounting?

So how many folks have cars with absolute and complete province.  Original cars they originally owned and photographically document from day one.  Kept complete and accurate maintenance records, and kept all replaced parts?
I know several people with original cars they owned from day one.  But they were daily drivers in the day, and they admit they did not track replacement parts like water pumps, master cylinder and booster, alternators, distributors, starters, etc... 

Is it even feasibly to ever know for sure any more?  I have had the opportunity to go through piles of part collected from the 90 to date.  A pile of 50 alternators, hundreds of power steering pumps, etc....  When it comes to some of these parts they all have been rebuilt at some point.  Internal parts mixed and matched. There not really a NOS water pump, or original alternator.  I found only 1 alternator with an original style rear bearing.  Almost all have mismatch date codes on the housing.  Hard to believe a 65 date code and part number rear housing came with a 71 date code front housing. The list goes on.

So is there anyone on this forum that has such a car?  How about the hemi charger 500s?  Any original owners from the first 32 that can discuss specifics such as assembly dates on the motor and transmission.  Documented date codes of original parts such as carb, alternator, water pump housing and a picture of the water pump?  Is there information that chronicles part date codes versus the Sep68 SPD and actual delivery dates to your dealer and you?
I would like to get some concrete data with province, or is that really a lost cause in some areas? 

I do research this on google, forums, I track the parts in the manual over time, review what service manuals say and even review the Master training documents that are on line.  Thanks, 

[Kowal]

I would assume there will be a lot of thoughts on this one, so let me start.

1. Don't confuse an assembly line part versus a "packaged" part that was sold from the dealership parts counter.   Often the parts are the same, but just as often the parts counter part was specifically created to solve a problem across several models and may therefore have a different part number or maybe even the same part number but a different "look" or feel than the original assembly line part.   The alternator is a great example of this.

2. In the Mopar world, hard to find a single source that can answer a lot of your questions.   On cars like the Olds 442, you can get the original assembly line drawings and instructions which are amazingly well done and really get you to the part number level, much harder on Mopar.    A really great source is MMC Detroit and the manuals they sell, they get you part of the way there.    The other is to just be part of forums like this, Moparts, the Lift Off Hood forum...all of which really shed light on things like what was different between a 68, 69 and 70 B-Body in detailed terms.  Here are the MMC links

https://shop.mmcdetroit.com/
http://www.mmcdetroit.com/

The Paul Herd books are sort of helpful, most people swear at them due to a number of built in errors, but they do fill in a lot of blanks...you just have to second source practically every reference in the books to be sure.

[Kowal]

Here are some more links that are great help.

http://www.nicksgarage.com/toolbox.htm

http://a12mopar.com/yabb/YaBB.pl

http://www.69hemi.com/

[Alaskan_TA]

Part numbers were an evolving system & so some were superseded over time.

Door handles on E-bodies are one classic example.

[daytonalo]

somebody has way too much time on their hands !!

[Ghoste]

Im glad of that, some of us enjoy the historical accuracy thing and asking questions is part of how we try to pin it down.

[odcics2]

Im glad of that, some of us enjoy the historical accuracy thing and asking questions is part of how we try to pin it down.

[maxwellwedge]

If you have any specific questions on any of the above mentioned parts such as dates, casting numbers etc. just ask here. Me and others would be happy to answer them. I have and have had many original cars that I can look at.
I can tell you that as far as an alternator is concerned - the parts book number is no where close to what was put on at the factory. A correct Hemi alternator is a very tough piece to find. I have never seen that disparity in casting dates on an untouched alternator which leads me to believe it was rebuilt at one time. The Bremen bearing was available back in the day and some rebuilders used it.
Water pump and housing is easier as all the big blocks used virtually the same stuff.
Carbs are straightforward. All RB big-block Prestolite distributors look identical on the outside - the only outwardly identifying difference is the tag. Hemi's use a unique distributor hold-down clamp.
Hemi power steering pumps have a unique, solid pulley...the water pump and crankshaft pulley's are unique as well. The P/S hose is unique to the Hemi too.   
Ask away! 

[Alaskan_TA]

On a related note, discovered while doing research on 1970 D13 floor shift three speed manual transmission A, B & E-bodies.

There are two different shift knob types. One is smooth with the H shift pattern in white letters & the other is a textured pebble grain with no shift pattern.

Both types come in two different thread variationss to mount to the shifter handle, 3/8" RH fine thread & 3/8" LH coarse thread.

Yep, a total of four knob types.

I have A & E handles with each thread type as well so far, still trying to confirm if the B- handles came in each thread variant as well.

Some of this stuff can boggle the mind, why so many variations for such simple parts?

[Dragon Slayer]

First of all, thanks for the responses.  I have been to all those sites except the 69 hemi one until last night.  I also have talked and exchanged e-mails with owners of some of those sites. To my point they acknowledge they do not know the correct answers to some of my questions on water pumps and power steering.  I am leery of purchasing, or reading a book that has known "intended errors".  What is the point if the reader does not know what is correct and what is wrong in the book.  I have read excerpts of the book from google shots, and again I do a lot of research looking for confirmation.  I spend a lot of my time reading Mopar service and parts manuals, Master training instructions and cross referencing public data on the web.

Kowal, Specific to the 69hemi site and the restored 69 Charger Hemi, there are so many incorrect parts on that car from just a basic review, yet the site owner believes he has restored original parts.  Which is kind of what my point has been.  The water pump is not correct and is the late 70 style.  The fluid clutch fan is not original, even the thermostat housing is the 72 and up variant.  The power steering pump is not correct, it is a Saginaw. The alternator has the wrong pulley.  Again, he assumes this car has all original parts, yet it changed hands several times.  As if no part ever failed and had to be replaced before he purchased it.

As far as answering my questions, they are all on the Moparts forum in the restoration section.

Yes I have lots of time on my hands, I do this for a hobby hands on. I am blessed to hobby with someone who has been doing mopars for 50 plus years, but not at the concourse level.  So I have rebuilt and taken apart transmissions, carbs, distributors, water pumps, power steering pumps, alternators, etc..  and can physically compare literally 30 or more to see the differences.  Plus I do my homework with the service manuals.  Some of these parts as I have said have been sitting for decades.  Not sure why some have to mock and knock a legitimate segment of the hobby just because they don't care.  But I am having fun and just trying to learn more.

Maxwellwedge, thanks for response and you have answered questions for me before on moparts.  Let me make my point a little clearer and several of my questions are on the mopart in detail with pictures.

First, These cars and parts are 50 years old.  Many of the parts floating around are rebuilds.  Everything was a core back then.  Even brake shoes.  Everything was rebuilt or refurbished and resold through aftermarket parts store and even dealerships.  Parts also failed at a higher rate than they do today due to different manufacturing processes and technology.  Then there is the whole this junk is valuable part...  My point being even for an original car back in 1968 or 70, how do you know that the water pump is in fact the one the car was built with.  Did folks document back then, or even care? Who kept a broken part if you could get an extra few bucks back turning it in?

So let's take carbs.  Very clear part number and date markings.  Collaborative data in parts book, service manual and manufacture data books.  Externally guys will pick apart the wrong date code, or plating, or throttle linkage nut.  But how many know the Venturies, step-up rod and even throttle plates are wrong.  Or while the external choke looks correct, the part number on the back of the housing is for a 1965 Cadillac?  Does anyone care as long as the externals are right.  Yet if it was a three speed wiper motor that visually and operationally was correct, but a different part number or date code.  It would be wrong.

Distributors again external and tag, yet if you look at the parts manuals there are different part numbers for the cam stop depending on the motor.  So while a 440/440 6/hemi all would interchange there are differences.  So what is the correct part number on the 69 hemi cam stop.  Is it B LU, or is that the 440 version.  Do folks even know there is different clocking between big block Chrysler shafts, versus the dual points?  Even the cast iron late model single point shafts are clocked different.  Again so many rebuild distributors out there yet no distinction made between a 67 non cap hemi distributor and a 69 cap car.   I realize you recurve it to what you want, but back to an OEM correct part how much is lost info because of the rebuild mismatch.

So water pumps.  I have found 2 major variants and several minor variations for both of the 2843290 big block water pump that cover this 67 to 71 ish use.  There are no part numbers on these pumps, and no date codes, though there may be some casting date codes that would be day/month or week or shift.  But no year that I can figure out.  Many have no codes.  So does it matter? Up through 68 the service manual tell you how to rebuild them.  69 no longer does and you were told to replace.  Everyone I worked on had previously been rebuild based on stamped oversize bearing shaft.  So which variant is period correct for a 69 hemi.  By the way, I have a Chrysler boxed water pump for a 60 desoto V-8.  It has the 2843290 casting, but a plastic impeller that is a 180000 series impeller for the Desoto.  This just goes to show you how the rebuild process convoluted parts.  You can see plenty of pictures on my post in moparts restoration section.

Power steering pumps.  Again visually folks know the casting number and appearance and attributes of the Federal 1.02 pump.  Do folks know there were 3 separate part numbers for models.  Because of 3 separate operating pressures.  One for A, B and C bodies.  Pulleys were not an integral part of the pump assembly because pulley can be removed and installed without disassembling the pump.  By the way the hemi pulley was unique, but solid pulleys were not.  There are solid pulley, but just a larger diameter and again pulley can be swapped.  Here again like distributors you do not see a distinction between these different operating characteristic when you go to a parts store or a rebuilder.  But the Master training documents from Chrysler and the part numbers in the books, were very clear that you could not swap or mix parts for federal power steering pumps and you must order the correct part number for the car based on the parts book.  The flow control valve is what is different and was matched to the housing so you could not mix and match.  I have found significant marking and overstamps on the pumps I looked at.  I cannot decipher them.  Yet somehow the assembly guys had to know which pump went on which car, so one of the marks had to be an identification code.  Again there is no part number on them, and you can see plenty of my write up on moparts.

Alternator I will handle with a separate post.  I have collected a significant amount of data.  There really where only 3 variants of the alternator rated by current.  Until we get to the transistor control fully in 70 with total isolated field for the rotor.  But here again, the 1966 Master training instructions from the 1966 series give some insight.  They have a chart with the production line part numbers.  There are 3 different ones for the 46 and 60 amp alternator and the sole reason was to identify which pulley was on it.  So a specific pulley drove the part number for the alternator, based on motor and accessories coupled with body of vehicle.  The pulley for an alternator is not something you can change without disassembling the alternator.  Hence the notes that would come with the over the counter alternator to tell you how to make a double groove pulley work in place of the single groove original.  But again, why make it so hard other then it was electrical engineers. Why is the parts book so wrong in this area for 1969.  Prior years and especially 70 and up are more accurate.  Also I don't think the specific part number of the alternator made it on the Broadcast sheet until 1970.  Yes the F11 code was there but not a 3 or 2 digit part number code.  Round back alternators were pretty simple, in fact even in 1969 your looking at a 2098850 46amp and a 2095059 pulley.  These are 1959/60 part numbers.  So if all the production line alternator had unique part numbers not associated with the OEM Parts counter part number, how many cars even 383 B bodies with AC still have a correct and original Alternator?  Or is this a question folks would rather not know the answer too. It just seems crazy to create so many unique part numbers when there really were only 3 alternator sizes and just a handful of pulley sizes.     

[68pplcharger]

 

[aerolith]

I suppose dragon slaying got a bit boring after smaug!

Are there any real 69 C500 survivor cars?
I was the first person to strip my C500 and there was a lot of newish parts on there as you would expect.
Things like the ' 69 manual carby' was replaced with an 69 auto carby, I suppose they were easier to find?
Luckily the engine was fairly stock and never hot-rodded so the block, heads, manifold, valve covers etc., were all original.
I couldn't save the rubbery parts as they were perished, but this is where the dilemma starts.

Once you start fitting NOS parts, where do you stop?
Most of us don't have the money or time to do a 100% perfecto-resto...

Originality is important but there are more pressing issues in the WORLD!

[alfaitalia]

I know I've said it before......but unless you have owned the car from brand new and its only covered minimal miles and never serviced......its NOT original. Even its first service in 1970 (or whatever) would have probably used parts with differing part numbers to the factory ones....which themselves could be different one day to the next....a new supplier for the same part = new part number. If you have restored your car at all....its worse still. Most on here build there resto's to a far higher standard than Dodge ever did. Not seen anyone trying to get wonky door gaps or paint runs on the C500 builds yet! 60/70s cars were build to a very poor quality standard compared to even the cheapest cars today.....just like most cars of that era.

[aerolith]

Mmmm, I did just did that, tight door gaps and left the paint runs in the engine compartment...(as found)

Just scotch-brighted and a fresh coat of errr, F8 pearl poly paint, even painted the top adjuster nuts/washers, just like Mother Mopar did...

Painter will have kittens when he/she sees these Mopar 1/8'' inch door-gaps before paint...

[maxwellwedge]

I can tell you with all certainty that the standard production line 37 Amp alternator on a 69 Hemi was 2875549. The parts book shows something different - 2642944 which has never been found on an original car. There was one optional alternator that was available on the '69 Hemi....a 48 amp version but I have never seen one on a car....I asked Frank Badalson - he hasn't either.

My October 25th built Hemi GTX 4-speed had 13,000 miles on it when I bought it. It was only driven for 1 year and parked. It even has the original air filter and exhaust system still on it. It is a true time capsule. The only difference between your engine and mine (if yours is a 4-speed) would be the air cleaner and the PCV and breather would be reversed between a "Chrome Dome - Non fresh air cleaner and a fresh air cleaner.
The starter motor, distributor, carbs and some minor items are unique to 4-speed or automatic.

I found a note that the water pump housing is 2780887-6 with a Pentastar on the lower tube. I didn't find any notes on the pump itself....I'll have to look.  

It has all its original hoses, wires, carbs etc. etc. I only cleaned the carbs.

If you need to know any specifics about any area - just ask. As long as I don't need to tear it apart - Lol.  

[Dragon Slayer]

Thank you.  That is OCT 68? I do not dispute the alternator.  I just find the alternator part number bizarre considering you do not see that in other areas.  Plus the 69 parts book errors in this area.  Seemed all cleaned up by 70.  I also agree no 47Amp alternator though I have a very original looking one with correct rear bearing that had the 059 pulley and 68 date code.  2098850.  All the hemi broadcast sheets I have seen on the web and at auctions sites, DO NOT have F11 checked.

I would be interest in pictures of the water pump. Especially any other marks or codes besides a casting number.  Also, did you redo your distributor?  What letters stamped on the cam stop top and bottom.

I can't afford NOS OEM Concourse either, but I do try to get the correct part.  I am happy to refurbish a used part myself were I can and use it. My carbs where original manuals with proper date code, but rear had one venturi from a 67 hemi carb and the front had more non correct parts.  Luckily a rebuilder had the proper original venturi's and parts and did me right when he rebuilt my carbs.

The whole core and rebuilding of parts by the industry has convoluted original parts in my opinion.  Plus the Hemi Al, Hemi Bill, Hemi Charlies of ebay really mess things up, because EVERYTHING is a hemi part
I would just like to know what was correct or right even if the parts are unobtainable. 

[69_500]

There are a few unrestored Hemi 500's that are around.

Dragon I spoke to you when you first got your car. Dan from Indiana here.
I know of a few cars from the first big batch that are unrestored. Two of the ones in first batch are still owned by original owners too.

[Dragon Slayer]

Hi Dan,  How are you?  I still think even unrestored one owner cars are not always good examples unless the original owners were meticulous record keepers but if they were and even if not the whole history and timeline of the first 32 build is interesting to me.  Were they done in one shot, did they really start the build in Sept or was it a later date.  When did they show up at the dealers.  Using the original records to actually chart the history of the car.

Here is what I would be interest in for the first 32 and especially the 4 spd cars.

Granted all had Sep SPD.  What are the assembly dates for the motor and trans and Dana for 4pd cars.
What date code on carbs, distributor, alternator
What specific date is on the Carb Tag (I have heard that a specific month carb for hemis were probably all built on the same day). Would tags confirm that?
What cast number and date codes on Water pump housing and water pump. Picture of actual Water Pump
What markings on power steering pump beyond the casting number, and a picture with part numbers for the Power Steering hose.
Date code on H wheels

I wonder if that data is really available though.

[69_500]

Off the top of my head I can tell you date code on rims to two of the Hemi 500's in first batch.

July 4, 1968.

Both are bronze cars.

[Dragon Slayer]

Thanks Dan,  I know this is a deeper level of information, but I do not think I have seen this type of discussion.  Folks want production number and such, but less information that helps lock in what date codes are more correct for the Charger 500s.  I have seen/heard of several hemi cars that have a significant number of original parts that have date codes later then the SPD.  Having a good feel in detail of those first 32 C500 would be interesting at least to me, but I imagine most owners do not have that level of detail unless they had a concourse type restoration on a original survivor.

[69_500]

I detail everything on cars I look at. Typically take 1,200-1,800 pictures of each car. Rarely a pic of the shoe car. If there is a part number or date code on a part I get a pic of it.

[Dragon Slayer]

So can you help with those dates and pictures of original Water Pump and Power Steering pump and hose? 

[69_500]

I will take a look at my pics

[aerolith]

Hi DS,

Which water pump is correct for C500 440 engine, 6 blade of 8 blade, non air please?

HNY from Aerolite

[Dragon Slayer]

According to 69 service manual and parts manual the AC engines and hemi got the 3.50" 6 blade.  Transition was during 68 model year and hemi cars after 11/15/67 got the AC water pumped based on a note in the 68 parts manual. 

So your non AC 440 (Big Blocks) got the 4.375" 8 blade.

Also remember pulley ratios were different.  No AC car had a .95 ratio for water pump.  AC cars 1.4 and the Hemi 1.2.

I am trying to hone in on the period correct or assembly line correct housing for the pump.

I placed a nice write up on the mopart restoration section.  I can rebuild water pumps now and have made jigs for seating seal, hub and impeller to correct depths.