Help with 440 build down under

[BSB67]

I give it an 11.40 due to the tunnel ram. 

The reality is that it will 60 ft worse, not the same.

[c00nhunterjoe]

Touche' my friend.

[TOY440]

So go to a better head? Raise the compression?

[c00nhunterjoe]

We need to reestablish the goal before reccomending parts. How much suspension changes are you wilking to make? Loose moving front end, caltracs, drag shocks make a huge et change without needing horsepower but affect street manners.

[TOY440]

Ultimately I want a tuff street car, something I can take to a few shows a year and light up the main straight as long as I want, but, want to be relatively competitive at the strip on the rare occasion I go there.

Something I can take out for the sunday cruise, then perhaps bolt on some caltracs, some 90/10's in the front and some slicks and go racing once or twice a year.

If I can get enough power out of the engine, I'll take care of the rest, but the rest I'm not up to yet, if any of that makes sense

[440]

Something like this 440      

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=g_H7UQjFkT4

[TOY440]

That's a hearse from New Zealand, tuff bit of gear, but also blown, I prefer N/A

[Challenger340]

IMO,
BEST start to a 10 sec effort is to the Car itself well before the Engine !
60 ft times being so critical to E.T. can dictate the need, or lack thereof, for substantial HP in the Engine itself ?

To explain further here...
anything GAINED or LOST in 60ft times can pretty much be doubled off E.T. ?

Example:
say you have a Car running 123 mph @ an 11.50 E.T., but with a 1.79 sec 60 ft time ?
theoretically,
if you DROP the 60 ft time down around 1.5 seconds ?  That same Car although still going 123 mph in the 1/4 mile(HP did NOT change), would probably drop it's E.T. down around  a very low 11.0 or High 10's ?

This is just for "illustration" here off the top of my head, I didn't go punch any actual numbers. But the example is relative to my point.... that being.... you can go FASTER(lower E.T) with LESS or the same Horsepower by setting the Car up well... for a really good 60ft time....
as opposed.....
to pounding/wasting more & more HP at a poor Car setup ?

550-600 hp with a stock stroke 440 is more than doable even on 91 Octane Pump Gas, been there DONE THAT lots, even with just Solid Flat Tappet Camshafts/Ported Stealth Heads, which can run on the Street for many thousands of miles with very little maintenance(Odd V/Lash setting spring & Fall)  

If you are planning RACE Gas and better Heads/Race Roller Cam as part of the budget ?
I would suggest careful planning/parts selection can dip well down lower 10's with a good car setup, albeit with higher maintenance/mile.

[TOY440]

I understand what you are saying, makes sense.

When you speak of ported stealth heads and cam, what spec cam would you suggest and what kind of flow numbers you think the heads need to be? Would the size of the cam dictate valve reliefs in the pistons? Should I be getting a piston and rod combo to be at 0 deck height? Things like that, don't eant to waste money on things that I will have to change later, in particular the bottom end, I dont mind lifting the heads for more work or a cam swap later down the track, though this is primarily a street car not a race car

[c00nhunterjoe]

Unless you buy the oe replacement piston (flat top no releifs), they should all come with sufficient feleifs for ykur bhild. BUT, your machine shop should be hand in hand witb you and discussing prior to yku showing up on their door step with boxes of parts saying "here, fix this".
  The block needs to go to the shop first, get cleaned, checked and measured. You cant pick a piston until you know how big the holes need to be, then they will see how square the block is to see if it needs milling. If you buy a piston for a theroretical 0 deck, then find out your deck needs a bunch of milling, you could end up with a positive piston..... it has happened.

You still havnt established what you want? I could throw any cam size out there amd head flow numbers again. Where are we going with the car?  A street car that is competetive at the track but a good sunday cruiser really doesnt say anything. What is competetive at your tracks? What kind of street cars are down there? For example, in my town, there are tons of tagged and driven 8 second 1/4 mile cars. Yes, im serious. My local track is home to the yellowbullet nationals so we have insane cars all over my area. What class do you plan to run when you go to the track?
   Dont forget that on the street, 1000 hp is useless if you run a bfg radial ta. You have inferred driving on street tires then bolting on slicks to go to the track, but still want to have a handle on the street cars. Lots of questions.

[TOY440]

Your questions and info so far is pretty priceless, gives me more to think about, so I just want to say thanks, but to keep it simple I guess haha, perhaps a build that will get me around 600hp (which I'm told is very doable with a big block, even at 440 cubes), the rest I will sort out as I go (suspension, traction aids etc as I get to them), atleast I know the engine wont be holding me back.

The block has already been to the machine shop, had the necessary checks and measures done, is now 40 thou over.

[c00nhunterjoe]

If 600hp in a 440 is the goal, then max wedge ports are not needed. A properly ported set of stealths or edlebrocks will do the job. I STRONGLY suggest you contact prh or heyoldguy on this forum as they specialize in mopar cylinder heads. It would be worth purchasing a set through them already ported. They will be done right the 1st time, guaranteed. They may even suggest the new trickflow heads but i do not personally have hands on experience with those.

[Challenger340]

"Rule of Thumb" at this point in the feasibility study of your power goals, is to take your target goal of 600 hp / 2 = 300 cfm Cylinder Head at the Cam Lift.
FAR MORE to it than the above obviously....
just say'in,
for illustration of what you will need far before any actual parts purchases, it can be clearly seen that the 300 cfm would dictate ported Eddy's, or ported Stealth's to get 300 cfm ? which may then given the costs associated to porting the lesser Heads ? then mandate investigation/comparisons to just buying a TF240 Head.

But as mentioned, this RoT is NOT written in stone !
Camshafts/Intakes, etc., etc., ALL can play a role where you can exceed the RoT and get 600 hp from a 280 cfm Head, or conversely, only get 580 hp from 320 cfm Heads with poor combo selection.

Here's an example of what I'm talking about in CFM versus HP
* 299 cfm @ .600" Valve Lift Stealth's we Ported
* 244* @ .050 Solid Flat Tappet Camshaft(very streetable long term)
* Pump 91 Octane
* "451" which is 440 Internals installed in a 400 Block(lighter Piston)
585 hp and 588 Ft/Lbs Trq.

http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,123378.0.html

[TOY440]

How much comp is that combo? We run 98 octane over here, I can go as high as 12:1, as my mates small block stroker runs that with absolutely no issues what so ever

[alfaitalia]

Be aware that Octane rating are measured differently in the US to most other countries......so your 91 octane there will probably not be the same as 91 octane there.

Example;

UK std unleaded "95"octane = is what they call 90/91 octane in the USA

UK "super" "97/99"octane = is what they call 92 /93 octane in the USA

[TOY440]

I understand what you are sayin, some are measured in RON, some aren't, though my mates car runs 12:1 comp all day everyday with BP ultimate 98, and it has no issues at all........ and hauls ass mind you haha

I think that would give a decemt insight in to the quality of fuel we have here. Also, I have had big blocks and LS's before, it's a fairly decent and reliable fuel

[Challenger340]

How much comp is that combo? We run 98 octane over here, I can go as high as 12:1, as my mates small block stroker runs that with absolutely no issues what so ever

10.7:1
However,
"Static" C.R. means NOTHING, other than as a base imput to planning for your Heads/Camshaft/Dynamic Cylinder pressures. If this is a primarily "street" effort with occassional track usage of respectable E.T posted,
and,
you have readily available 98 Octane and plan to use it ?
then
I would highly suggest some homework reading around what's called DCR or "Dynamic Compression Ratio", wherein you can then have an understanding of why Cam events, can even be used to make 12:1 run fine on even 91 Octane.
That's not always reccommended, but again here... for "illustration" purposes an understanding how CAM events dictate actual PRESSURE the Fuel quality see's... not "Static" CR which is just the theoretical start point.

[TOY440]

All you guys are off ya heads haha, that's why I like this site, you guys know what you're doing, I'm just a nobody wanting to screw together a tuff combo, with just a bit of help from those that have been there and done that, just a proven combo built with a little bit of a budget I guess

By the way, who is PRH?

Geez, it's 5 am here, I have been up all night, you guys are keeping me up haha

[justcruisin]

Just to add to what has been said in regard to DCR, if you intend to push the limit of pump gas compression, everything needs to be right - tune, timing curve, plug heat range, high power ignition, quench, cool running temps, under hood temps, cool air intake, elevation, etc etc, especially if you live in a hot area, lot more to it than shooting for a number.

[Challenger340]

Just to add to what has been said in regard to DCR, if you intend to push the limit of pump gas compression, everything needs to be right - tune, timing curve, plug heat range, high power ignition, quench, cool running temps, under hood temps, cool air intake, elevation, etc etc, especially if you live in a hot area, lot more to it than shooting for a number.

EXACTLY ! and very well said     and that's just the start, even TONS MORE little tricks being done WELL BEFORE any final tuning, that are involved during the Machining and Head Porting & Prep, that also contribute far more than can be explained here.

That's why there is far more to it than just looking for a "tough combo that someone can screw together" ?   It just very simply.... ain't THAT simple !
and hence....
why IMO, unless you are going to invest 30 or 40 years gaining experience building BB Mopars ?
IMO, you would be well advised.....
to contact Jim LaRoy (heyoldguy) or Dwyane Porter (PRH) on this site for your Engine/Component purchases like Heads/Intake/Camshafts or even complete Engines.

[TOY440]

Thanks for the info guys, kinda glad I asked the question, kinda sorry I did.

Thanks for your help, cheers!

[c00nhunterjoe]

Dont be sorry. Spend the money once, and spend it right, especially in your case with import taxes overseas

[440]

Dont be sorry. Spend the money once, and spend it right, especially in your case with import taxes overseas

We get screwed here in Australia no matter which way you look at it, it just depends on how hard......